TA 3C Drath slow breeders and the econ crash

It is somewhat expected to see the Drath suffer economically due to their poulation crisis and the colony race. However, it should not be THAT bad in the way your describing it. Perhaps the problem is you tech choice. You should have done money making techs. That would probably help a bit.

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Yeah, I have a habit of racing down to ion engines and at least the first miniaturization tech, very early in the game. Not too smart for the Drath, I guess. I switched gears when I noticed how long the econ recovery was stretching out.

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Are you running at 100% morale at all? Even on a slow breeding race, that would build your tax base quickly...

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

the new recruiting centers help as well.

Very cheap, raise pop growth rate 20% and econ 10%. Replace late in game with stock markets/banking centers.

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@Starstriker 1:
No, I'm running tax/morale at just over 41% approval for the tax income. I have trouble keeping morale at 100% during the colonizing/crash phase of the game, unless I'm getting really lucky with finding cash-producing anomalies. Maybe I should try ramping it to 100% for just a few turns here and there, right after I've discovered a cash anomaly or sold a tech, and can afford to "float" for a few turns? Might help.

@arstal:
Thanks for the tip. I had forgotten that recruiting centers are unlocked in the early military tree. I usually only start down the military line sometime after I'm recovering from the crash and population is starting to pick up. That's when I start thinking about making a few planet defense fighters to hold off early planet grabs. So, I haven't thought of it as a way to help dig out of the crash. I'll give it a shot. I hate to give up a tile, especially on low-PQ planets. But as you say, it's a good candidate for replacing later with an econ building.

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@Starstriker 1:
No, I'm running tax/morale at just over 41% approval for the tax income. I have trouble keeping morale at 100% during the colonizing/crash phase of the game, unless I'm getting really lucky with finding cash-producing anomalies. Maybe I should try ramping it to 100% for just a few turns here and there, right after I've discovered a cash anomaly or sold a tech, and can afford to "float" for a few turns? Might help.

That's your problem, then. 41% approval doesn't get much population growth at all. You have to go past the 70% mark to get appreciable population growth, and 100% gets you the best bonus.

I actually run with taxes down to nothing (or nearly nothing) from the start of the game, up until I can't concievably keep doing it with any kind of safety. I do this in lieu of quick buying (for the most part) and it can work very well, especially if you get lucky with anomalies. At the start of the game, it's really a no brainer: your costs aren't that high and neither are your taxes. Therefore, you should try and reap the benefits of high population growth.

I've found that it has its pluses and minuses. On one hand, there's the aforementioned lack of quick buying which can mean getting less colony ships and constructors out in that crucial early part of the game. Another is that you have to be very careful with how you balance your economy during this stage. Every lab and factory that you aren't using is costing you for maintainence, and if you over extend yourself in that regard you really cut short the amount of time you can run at top morale.

On the other hand, when you DO start taxing your people (preferably when your planets are getting close to topping off in population) you get an appreciable amount of money earlier than you would otherwise. I honestly can't imagine going without it... taxing your starting population early is really bad in the long term. Short term pains need to be taken for long term gains.

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Hmmm... different strategies I guess. I like knowing what the local neighborhood looks like, so I know where to send colony ships and constructors. I hate doing that blind. So I always rush-buy sensor ships to find likely planets, and hope for an early contact with another race or minor to start tech trading. I'll rush-buy a constructor if I see a juicy resource, especially if there's a nearby minor race that will snap it up. That needs early cash, so I'd have a hard time following your strategy. But it might be do-able at the 70% approval level.

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Zenticutus, my first game with the Drath was a disaster. I played them as I would any other race with a quick buy, colony rush. My economy crashed and didn't recover, I stopped all building and spending and I was still running in the red. I think I spread too quickly and didn't find enough anomalies to keep me afloat. As soon as all the other races declared war on me and starting sending transports to my low-population worlds I knew it was over. There was nothing I could do to recover that game.

So I think the Drath have to be played a little slower then the other races, I'll probably try them again once I finish my game as the Korx.

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Hmmm... different strategies I guess. I like knowing what the local neighborhood looks like, so I know where to send colony ships and constructors. I hate doing that blind. So I always rush-buy sensor ships to find likely planets, and hope for an early contact with another race or minor to start tech trading. I'll rush-buy a constructor if I see a juicy resource, especially if there's a nearby minor race that will snap it up. That needs early cash, so I'd have a hard time following your strategy. But it might be do-able at the 70% approval level.

You'll probably do better avoiding the quick buys. It depends a lot on map size, but in general you want to have production build your ships. The only things I buy are 1-2 factories on my home planet, and maybe the first new planet.

Also you can't have morale at 40%. As someone said above, it'll crush you. You need to play with morale in the 70's early to get your population going. At 40 they just won't grow.

You just have to cut spending, build more survey ships, (earlier too), grab morale & econ bases, and as you mentioned go after the econ techs.

Going after the econ techs too early doesn't help a whole lot IMO. The key to economy is population first. Getting that first morale tech helps a lot too...

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IMO the Drath and Iconians have significant learning curves as compared to others since they slow early economic development.

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The Drath are a slow start, but once they get going... War profiteering is WAY overpowered. I'm currently running a full huge map... I can buy a civ into war for about 1500bc. I'm making about 1700bc/turn from war profiteering. And about 500 from taxes, keeping morale at 90+percent.

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I think the Korx are the strongest economically, once you get going. So long as you max out your trade routes and get your mercenaries out there, you can keep a health economy going.... especially if the Drath are around and aren't bribing people to attack YOU!

This economic strength seems to come at a cost: it's not based off of the security of influence or tax revenue! Your trade is a relatively easy target (even once the super project is working blasting freighters will still send them back home where they aren't worth much, and you'll still be able to cut off trade routes by invading planets or imposing embargos), and you cut off a mercenary budget simply by bartering peace treaties where possible. Granted, the AI is not yet capable of effectively targeting the Korx player in this way... but with some more diplomatic options and AI, they could develop the means to cripple a Kork economy.

Specifically, being able to convince an AI to place (or remove) an embargo on a race would be a grand idea, as would the ability to ask an AI to covertly undermine a player with spies, diplomatic moves, etc. Since the Drath are the best at making everyone hate an opponent and make peace with anyone else, they'd be the perfect counter to the Korx if they were to keep every war centered on the Korx. After all, if everyone is shooting the Korx and not each other, there's no mercenary revenue to be had.

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Zenticutus, my first game with the Drath was a disaster. I played them as I would any other race with a quick buy, colony rush. My economy crashed and didn't recover, I stopped all building and spending and I was still running in the red.

I had the same thing, so I started another and did everything to boost population and economy early. I still did as much colony rushing as I could and got a decent amount of planets but not like normal.

I had to get Ethics early just for the Good's no-maintainance on your most populous planets, even then it was a scrape and was lucky with selling techs and finding cash with my survey ship.

That said after the first year their profiting from races at war makes them extremely interesting to play. I definitely look forward to taking this race up the difficulty levels.

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My first game with the Drath was terrible. So was my game with the Korx. They both spiraled into a total economic collapse. I don't see how anyone can do quick buying as an early strategy, especially now that we only start with $3K. I buy one factory on the homeworld sometimes, and I buy a colony ship to get off to a quick start. I do try to run my economy at 100% for as long as I can, and I raise taxes until my approval is about 50%.

You have to grab planets early, because while you're gasping along at a 13% economy, the AI is still cruising, and grabbing all the worlds. The only way out is to pray for an economic boom, or that you keep finding cash anomalies. The Korx crashed unrecoverably when I only had 8 worlds. If you have any near neighbors, by the time you can get on your feet, you're being inundated with AI colony ships.

I've found that, except for the Iconians, the economy is ridiculously easy late in the game, but it is often impossible early on, unless you get lucky.

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I started a new Drath game using some of the recommendations here, including trying to keep approval at 70% or better for population growth.

I'm still rush-buying two sensor ships to map the neighborhood and make early contact, because I have a pathological need to avoid blind exploration and colonization, and it increases the chance of finding someone for tech trading (selling). But I'm making cheaper, less effective sensor ships on tiny hulls instead of the big ones I usually build on cargo hulls. I'm holding off other rush-buys unless I luck into a rich cash anomaly or manage to sell some tech and have a decent cash reserve.

Another thing I'm trying is dialing down the number of habitable planets I normally set up, and increasing space between star systems (fewer stars, tight clusters). No matter how hard I try for efficient expansion with the Drath, the AI races are much faster at grabbing planets and the initial open resources. With fewer planets combined with more space between star systems to slow down other races exploring in "my" initial area, the Drath disadvantage in colonization and resource mining isn't quite as bad.

Unless I get a whole lot better at this game, it looks like the Drath will always start off with fewer planets and fewer resource mines than the other races, even with these optimized settings. Maybe it's intended to be this way, and balanced by more power later with that war profiteering ability. It still feels a little lopsided to me.... too painful in the beginning, too easy later on. But maybe that's the plan for this race.

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Unless I get a whole lot better at this game, it looks like the Drath will always start off with fewer planets and fewer resource mines than the other races, even with these optimized settings. Maybe it's intended to be this way, and balanced by more power later with that war profiteering ability. It still feels a little lopsided to me.... too painful in the beginning, too easy later on. But maybe that's the plan for this race.

I haven't played the Drath yet, but the war profiteering tech is a Korx tech. If you bought it from them, bribing races into war would definitly become a major source of income, though!

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In what little chance I've had to play the Drath, they didn't GROW their way out of the population. They got out of it through war profiteering, when the rest of the galaxy fell at each-other's throats.

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The Drath actually get significantly more out of War Profiteering than the Korx do. Which works out well for them with their Super Manipulator ability.

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I have financial problems with every race in TA but the humans (haven't tried Korx or Torians); and I am being very conservative with rush-buys and colonial rush.

One thing that bothers me is how does the AI manage to grab so many planets, build a navy and maintain high research levels without crashing? I am playing on "bright" at this point, so there may be some bonuses for the AI. But it still feels fishy...

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One thing that bothers me is how does the AI manage to grab so many planets, build a navy and maintain high research levels without crashing? I am playing on "bright" at this point, so there may be some bonuses for the AI. But it still feels fishy...

I think what we're seeing here is just the one big advantage the AI has in a turn-based game like this: they can adjust the economy settings on every turn, in a way most human players can't compete with. I don't tweak my econ sliders every turn, but the AI probably does. The AI "understands" the best path to maximizing their economy, production, and research, because they're running an automated game engine, not an engine that requires player input and decisions.

The balancing factor is the way the player can think ahead, use novel strategies, and is better at "thinking on your feet" to deal with changing situations.

A race with very slow growth and economic development like the Drath, just exposes those differences more than a "normal" baseline race like the Terrans.

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Another note for Economy crash - never be afraid to drop everything and lunge down one branch of the tech tree (I.E. the economy one (I don't remember its name right now...)) It usually doesn't take too long if you move your tech slider to 100%. Also, I've often had to build over and/or cancell improvements to build ecomony boosting improvements. Often, I don't even build starbases until the planet is fully developed - instead I focus on the population and profitability.
Another idea - balance economy with happiness and approval boosting improvements too. One or two per planet makes for a much more stable empire...

Another idea - convert a planet to an entirely population driven economy. I.E. Three or four farms and six or how ever many entertainment centers. Out to help out.

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You're better off loading up on economy buildings. High populations don't increases taxes linearily, there's a square root in the calculations somewhere. I'd leave it at a farm per planet, possibly two if you have some nice morale or farm boosting tiles.

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If you chose the population growth + 40%, economy +30% and morale +10% racial bonuses and either the Federalist party (economy + 20%) or the Universalist party (+ 10%, luck + 25%, defense + 10% and economy + 5%), the Drath Legion’s economy problems become more manageable. Keep your approval rating high. Do not rush buy anything. Fill your home planet with factories and labs. On your first two colonies build a starport, two factories, and maybe a lab or two to speed up research. Quickly build the recruitment centers from the space militarization technology on every planet. Build one entertainment center on every planet. Build nothing else on any of your planets until you get an economy building design. You can save enough to claim a reasonable number of planets by resisting the urge to overbuild. Have your home world and the two initial colonies constantly building colony ships until all of the good planets are claimed. When you get economic technologies, fill your planets with them until your economy balances out. On the empty planets, build a factory or two before building economy buildings. The war profiteering techs will provide a significant source of income if you bribe others into starting wars. If you choose the good ethical alignment, you can get free maintenance on your five most populous planets. Use your superior diplomacy ability to trade for technologies that boost your economy, approval, or population growth. With these strategies, you can work around the Drath Legion's economic disadvantages so you can more successfully utilize their considerable military advantages.

(These general strategies were tested on a large/abundant/scattered star galaxy. Their effectiveness may vary with the game settings.)

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Dagger and Starstriker1 -- I appreciate the advice, but have you actually played the current TA build Drath on a setting of Tough or higher?

I'm about to give up on them as a playable race. They're too much work and too much frustration, to get them to the point here I can enjoy what benefits they have as a race. I play this game for fun, not for frustration and uber-difficulty. My hat is off to anyone who can play the new Drath and make an easy go of it. I'm just not ready for that level of difficulty, I guess.

I think I'm going back to the Iconians or Yor for now. I'd like to try the new Korx after the freighter restart bug is fixed.

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The Drath actually get significantly more out of War Profiteering than the Korx do. Which works out well for them with their Super Manipulator ability.

Although I might not win, I've had a bunch of fun with war profiteering so far; I got the Torians to declare war on six different AI's in the same turn (during a 10% War Tax period). bwahaha!

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