Playing with lots of planets - how to financially survive the first year?

IztokBitenc

Join Date 03/2003

+34

Playing with lots of planets - how to financially survive the first year?

Hi!
After a long time of small games I tried a DA 1.61 game with lots of planets per player. Large galaxy, abundant everything, loose clusters, 6 players - I'd say 30-40 planets per player, ~20 immediately colonizable.
After 40 turns in the game and colonizing 19 planets I'm simply broke, running 260BC negative at 69% taxes, 48% approval and 44% econ ability. I haven't bought anything but the first factory on my HW, 've held my empire at 100% approval for as long as I could, built nothing (empty queue) on last 5 planets, cleared queues on most unimportant planets, always colonized with 250M pop, have three ships taking anomalies (bad luck there - less than 2000BC collected with most availabele already taken)... The only way to stay positive is by running spending at 45%, and you probably know what that means in a suicidal game.

I did all what I used to in DL games and what used to make me crawl out of debt quite easily. But now that's not working anymore. IMO the main reason for my big defficit is only 250M pop limit for Colony module. When pop comes to the new planet, it takes 7-8 turns just to grow them to 500M, the starting amount of the old Colony module, while running bigger defficit than in DL.

So I became curious: how do YOU manage to stay out of debt in those large Dark Avatar games with 50+ planets per player?

BR, Iztok

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Oh yes! My first set of suicidal games were on very slow tech (DL at the time) and I transitioned over a number of games to very fast.

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Hi!

how do YOU manage to stay out of debt in those large Dark Avatar games with 50+ planets per player?

Play Super Breeder.

In previously mentioned DL game I had a very good experience with Torians with +70% growth bonus. However there were also those 2500 BC anomalies that helped me cross the big monetary hole I made with lots of colonies. I wanted to try the high-growth approach in DA, so I re-designed Torians to +30% econ, Luck, and +10% to morale, mil and soc production, Federalist government, playing all-factories. Large all-abundant galaxy, 5 AIs, 8 minors, allowed tech trade.

After a year and a half in the game I have settled almost every planet in my corner of the galaxy (but 3 or 4 that are about to flip or already did), my teritory spanning accros 3 by 5 sectors and with some 10 extreme colonies in teritories of slower AIs. Most of the game I've been running deficit of 200-300 BC at 95%+ approval with taxes 39%-49% and not a single morale resource. Anomalies again gave only ~3500 BC (Stardock, please make the "Lucky day" anomaly appear less frequent, in my game I had the feeling it was each 3rd or 4th

). Tech trade gave about the same amount of money, but the tech_for_money trade was tedious. Minors had on average 500BC cash, so I traded about three times in the first year, threafter I just checked what tech they had.

In that year and a half of the game I stopped colonizing only for about a month to research extreme colonization techs, while still producing and sending colonizers to future colonies. When I researched the Xeno ethics (picked Neutral), built Harmony Crystals and increased taxes to 59% at 90%+ approval (the break-point for below 100% approval is about 6B pop on a planet), I'm earning 1500 BC profit per turn from my insanely high population. I can't tell from the graph how much pop I have, but my estimate is I have at least twice as all other AIs together.

When I compare this game with the game in original post, I can say Super Breeder is a BIG advantage for large games. In OP game I've been broke with 19 colonies, in this game I'm running profit with over 50. It is true that in this game I have +20% bonus to economy from Federalists, but it looks like I could afford to take Technologists as a political party. In this game I seriously lack research, not money.

BR, Iztok

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ok, well in Sandbox I only play Gigantic abundant maps and I too have run into the money issue. I have played at Suicidal -though no victories yet

so I know what you are talking about when you sit there and watch the AI launch massive amounts of colonizers faster than you can blink.

My play style: I use a MV-capable custom race that has IIRC, 65%morale (allows for a starting 57% tax at 100% morale, I can usually hold it at 49% for 100% morale, which is needed for the pop. boosts) 40% Econ, 5% Pop. Growth, and 20% Social Production, Super Hive ability (the one week build time is a gift from above). I go with Universalists (for the small econ boost and pop. growth boost, but mostly cuz I can still get my Luck bonus, needed during fights)

While the HW can be used as a major econ center, its more important in the higher level games to be getting those ships out there, whether it be colonizers, constructors, or military, I build up my infrastructure as much and as fast as possible on my HW. Be SMART about rush buying, try to avoid rush buying on an undeveloped tile, and also, if you can wait ONE week before Rush buying, it drops the cost a good amount. Finally, be cognizant of the leases. They are (well the Mitrosoft anyhow) very useful but that 20bc/wk cost adds up QUICK so if you make a purchase make sure you can make that kind of return on your investment.

I don't tech trade. I never get the kind of money I think I should and I really loathe giving anything away that diminishes the distance between the AI and myself in tech. IF I do have tech trading on, its OK to trade with minors, actually I usually try to use tech and whatever else I have to get the Treaties from them, and I also like freighter trade with Minors. Basically, look at them as free money, maybe not a lot of money, but especially early, enough to keep you afloat.

DON'T back fill. I know it sounds tempting to get those borders set up and one would think, ok well this one is 4 wks away and this only 1, I can get to it at anytime. The AI will already be settling in on your door steps if you do that. Your better off taking the worlds close to you and getting them to make money than taking something furthur away.

I make all Class 10 worlds and less automatically Econ-based worlds (and worlds that are higher than 20, paradise worlds like that, sound so tempting for lab or factory centers but take FOREVER to build up and end up costing a fortune)

Ok, so the Drengin have Toxic worlds and the Iconians have their Adapter and Yor have Barren. Big deal. I will usually put off Extreme Colonization unless I notice that I am majorly falling behind in the Planet race and thats the only way I can get ahead. Extreme Colonization techs are just too expensive at the beginning of the game to really be worth it (since you are looking at three techs just to make a world viable)
IF you do go for the Extreme Colonization techs only go for the BASIC level and leave the advanced for later, use those worlds strictly as econ/people boosters until you can really put the time into research. By the time I would have done all my Extreme colony techs I could have had Cultural Conquest and just influenced worlds into my control

DON'T worry about debt. I just played, beat, and got a conquest victory on a Tough map that I was in debt for the ENTIRETY of 2227. You can drop to -500BC before your manufacturing shuts down, at which point, at least if you are using All Factory, you will have a surplus, bringing you back out of the red. Obviously, the Stop/Go isn't a good thing but usually within 10 turns of originally going in debt on a Giga Map, I am successfully showing a surplus. I tend to run about +4-8K with 100 worlds, but I also don't maximize their economic potential like I could (9Bil worlds, 49% tax)

Finally, somewhere above me, someone talked about troop transports and using those. It IS possible to have Planetary Invasion and be ready to take on the AI worlds as early as July/August of 2226 (in DA), just have to be smart on what you research. I will say going the troop rush route works MUCH better with an All Labs approach.

Just some various thoughts.

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Have you tried the Thalians yet? The cheap factories early are amazing. The main issue with them is you have to get your survey ships rolling early to keep the build out going. With them, I usually take industrialist along with more social bonuses to build fast.

Also you don't want to build too many industrial centers early because they'll sink you.

To me, the only races worth playing are the Torians and the Thalians because of how good they are early in the game. Right now I've gone back to playing the Torians, and to be honest I think the Thalians with the right early game strategy are better. (especially with aphrodesiac, and pop bonuses)

I hope they make the AIs smarter about anomolies soon. To me they are the only way to get through the early game right now, and the AIs should at least build a second or third survey ship on larger maps (with lots on anomolies) Especially since now the anomolies regenerate...

EDIT: Also I tend to research out to stock exchanges towards the end of the rush, go evil, and build the Mind control center. Also with the thalians I don't research any of the industrial techs until my economy is taking off.

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Hi!

Have you tried the Thalians yet? The cheap factories early are amazing.

I did, in one of my first DA games. But the game was in small uni and with 10 planets and tech trade off I just couldn't be competitive with my tiny amount of research - couldn't get enough diplo and trade to get some advantage in relations, couldn't research enough warfare techs to take one or two weak AIs, couldn't reseearch hostile environments techs to get more planets... The all-factories build model with small amount of planets suffers seriously on the production of research points.

The main issue with them is you have to get your survey ships rolling early to keep the build out going.

I can't tell for sure if cash anomalies are nerfed, but in my current game I took majority of them (abundant amount in large uni, some AIs' survey ships stuck at one anomaly). There were very few with 1000 and 500 BCs.

With them, I usually take industrialist along with more social bonuses to build fast.

I'd rather recommend Technologists: in my current game I have Federalists and my average planet with 5 factories and focus on research produces 70 MPs and 13 TPs. I have only basic 10% research ability...

If I wouldn't have so many planets and 13 (yes, thirteen!) research treaties I'd be seriously hampered. So I'm just hampered, producing about the same amount of research as Korx with about a half of my planets. Anyway, it looks like this game will be fought with much bigger hulls than any previous one I've been in. Finally!

BR, Iztok

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In a huge or gigantic map its not really a bad idea to get one or two more Survey ships out there, not necc. for the BC anomalies (which are still helpful, if small, but I don't use them to allow another Rush Buy, 500BC will keep me afloat for a turn or two) but even the stat increases, getting a few econ boosts makes a noticeable difference over time.

After doing some quick testing, Using the All Factory approach, IB you are correct in giving yourself the Research bonus. At the very beginning on your home world the All-Factory (50/50/0) with no bonuses gives a 5; All-Factory with 20% Social (50/50/0) gives a 6, and finally with a 20% Research gives a 7 in RP.

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Intended playing strategy: all-factories. Never played it, but it should be appropriate for lots of planets and fastest tech.

Where do i find out about this strategy please?

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Ginny, the best analysis-explanation is in Wyndstar's now legendary AAR. It should really be a textbook for all GalCiv players. Rush to read it!

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Is there a link to this please

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Hi!

Where do i find out about this strategy please?

I've just checked the wiki and there's nothing about any all-X planet-build strategy. I know for quite some time that there's no single web site that would explain in detail what's specific to all-X planet-build approaches. Most of this knowledge is scattered accoss this forum in many topics.
I can't point you to single site, but here's what've sent to one player that asked me about the all_X approach. Please note all-factores and all-labs work because of using planetary focus, however all-econ does not produce much, because it BUYs everything.

---
> i do not understand how the production slider exactly work in conjunction
> with the all factory strategy!
> 1. Howcome you suggested x/x/0 in slider? wouldnt that net me 0 reserach ?

Yes, but you use focus on research to convert 1/4 of factories output to research. Like:

> 2. I have a world with tons of production. If i set the slider to 100 research i get 47 rp.

You don't invest anything in research, so set sliders to x/x/0. Click "focus to research" on that planet. Now check how planet's output has changed. Just repeat that on all planets with mostly finished infrastructure, and you're done.

> I thought 100 in reserach focus meant that all production was refocused to reserach
> and that loosing factories would mean loosing reserach?

Sliders at 0/0/100 mean you don't finance factories, but only labs. Since you don't have labs, you get only the basic research output from Initial Colony buildings and Civ Capital.

> Basically most posts about this strategy are abit over my head,

This is an advanced strategy, used mostly on highest difficulty settings. To use it successfully you need to master all he tricks that give you money in the game, because all-fac's and especially all-labs approaches drain your treasury like there's no tomorrow.

> this slider thing is abit difficult to grasp!

The basic idea behind sliders is sound: with them you direct the financing of your empire's production of tree "products": ships, buildings and research. It would work perfectly if there would be only one type of the building that would make output. But there are two: labs AND factories. So if you set sliders all equal (33/33/33), then factories would receive 2/3 of the "money" and labs 1/3. What would that mean in practice is 1 out of 3 factories would NOT produce anything, and 2 of 3 labs would also NOT be doing any research. So the tiles on which they stand are wasted!
That's not so important on game difficulty settings below masochistics. But at maso+ AIs get huge bonuses: on suicidal they have BASE output of production, research and money 5 times as big as a human player has! However the AI uses mixed approach - it builds fac's AND labs on the same planet. So regardless of bonuses it never operates them at their full capacity, what the all-X approach does, because it doesn't split the "financing", and doesn't waste planetary tiles for "unused" buildings.
The end result is that the advantage the suicidal AI has in production in the X field is nullified, or even in player's favor. Now he needs just to cover the other field, and the financiall part, that was never meant to cover such a big hole both approaches make.

HTH and BR, Iztok

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Give this link a try. If it works, it should take you to the post that I believe started the all-x build approach craze.

WWW Link

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Just to note, that above is an All-Labs approach, which, in my opinion, is more difficult than all-factories.

WWW Link - This is a link to Purge's recent All-Factories build, and is quite in depth on the subject.

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yes IB is correct, the All Labs and All Factory approach are NOT suggested for new or moderate players. However, that being said, the All-Factory is "easier" to manage than an All-labs approach. And these strategies are perhaps integral to a high difficulty game.

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Thanks

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