Modified Tech Tree Beta

Ok, perhaps I'm the odd one around, but I found GC2, and then DA, easy, even at the suicidal level (and even when I went in and modified the AIs from 170% to 200%, and set ALL at max cpu).

The problem was, the AIs were too predictable. I could tell they had the potential, but the way the tech tree was set up, the AI would go for colonization techs, while swarming out colonizers. The techs were cheap enough, within a ten or twenty turns, even on a gigantic map, the AI had hit all the normal planets, and most of the special worlds (due to getting the needed tech while en route to the planets). So, even with special types of worlds, you still got the Torian block, and the Drengin block, etc.

Then the AI would go for weapons. It would trade around, and if not all civs, at least all on a given side of a map, would lock into the same weapons tech and ignore the rest.

Then came the massive buildup of armies, with the inevitable wars between everyone. In between, you'd see a few trade lines, but they would break down quickly, as either the two civs went to war, or other wars made the line too unprofitable to continue.

Essentially, within the first hundred turns, even on gigantic, the entire map was full, each civ's line was pretty much established, and wars were going on continually.

On the research side, after chosing a weapons tech, the AI would go with the corresponding defense tech. It would take each to level 2 or 3, then depending on the AI, would move on to sensors, diplomacy, or habitation techs.

Influence was relatively uncontrollable, except using starbases or cultural centers. I spent last week playing out a 9 year (game time) gigantic suicidal map. I kept it going, just to see if the other civs would ever try to counter my influence bases, or build theirs up more than a single module or two. None of the majors ever even added a single module. The minors, surprisingly, did build theirs up a bit, with the Dark Yor going for three additional modules on an influence base. But no bases of any type from the AIs ever really got going with tens of modules. Mostly the AI used bases just to extend influence, then forgot about them. So, as a player, my ability to use maxed out influence bases without the AI having some way to counter it seemed unbalenced.

Also on balence, Neutral > Evil > Good. Sometimes the colonization events would actually have the Neutral be worse than the good, with evil better than both. However, the alignment benefits just outweighed any of it - and I could always take the colonization benefits and then just pay my way back to Neutral. Plus, on a gigantic map, there's an advantage to waiting to hit Xeno Ethics. If you wait to hit that one until you colonize all the quality 1, 2, 3 planets, you end up with more civ benefits - and again, you can always buy your way back to Neutral.

So what did I want? I wanted the AI to really have to work to colonize a given planet type, and to have to make choices, rather than just hitting all the colonization types and moving on. I wanted the AI to have to choose whether to go for trade, or colonization, or influence, or military. I wanted the AI to have to realize that there were three types of weapons, not just one. (I also found it incredably odd how the AI truely valued Aquatic, trading research treaties for it, but wouldn't even give 1 bc for Toxic).

By the way, on trade, it's the one bit I've not yet fully tested. I don't know if GalCiv2 can handle the max number of trade routes I've implemented. But wha I saw was, trade gets worthless quickly. I prefer gigantic, abundant planets, suicidal, with 9 majors and 8 minors. With a 16 route max, I can't even hit each race. With each route being worth maybe 30-50, on a gigantic map with 800-900 colonizable planets, that trade route quickly isn't even worth 1/10th of a percent of weekly taxes. Basically, trade happened between wars - it's income loss wasn't worth considering when considering going to war (or being paid to do it).

This tech tree isn't for the person who hates gigantic trees, or having to pick and choose. If you like having all the techs quickly, don't go for it. But if you like the idea of, say, the Drengin having a huge empire and a huge army, only to get cut in half by the Arceans when they swoop in and colonize all the Barren/Toxic/etc worlds that the Drengin couldn't (because they were too busy researching war techs)... If you like the idea of the Terrans trying to buy the colonization techs - or at least, just get so influential that they can try to flip them... Or the super spys (who you'd think would be at a disadvantage, but who seem to almost always go for the trade and influence paths)... etc. Then try this, and test it. Gal Civ 2 DA already was getting boring. Now I'm finding myself having to choose which tech paths I want to follow. I'm fighting not just military wars, but influence ones, economic ones, etc. I'm seeing incredably complex galaxies, and having to watch the timeline and the techs available to trade (or found out via spying), just to try and figure out who is doing what, and why that one economy or population or military or etc just spiked/plummeted. Plus, I like the idea of techs having consequences - maybe I want more morale, but is it worth taking a massive hit to population growth? Maybe I want to be a better spy/diplomat/etc - but can I afford the time to research that path?

Oh, I ought to mention, the idea here is to force the AI and the player to have to choose, and to invest time if they choose that path. Almost all of these are no trade/no steal. Some are alignment specific. Only thing I wish is that GalCiv2 supported:
* either/or techs - you can only choose one of tech group
* multiple pre-requisites (if you actually research all of the techs in, for example, colonization - which I now have as 25 rather expensive techs - you get XYZ production bonus)
* I like being able to set no trade/no steal. I'd be nice, though, to also have "no gift", "no demand", and "no trade, no gift, but can be demanded (ie, 'poison pill')" techs.

Most of you can pretty much figure out what the techs are from the titles - I've not yet bothered to add details or descriptions to most of them.

Anyhow, I don't have a website to host the file, but email me and I'll send you a copy of the techtree.xml file for you to try out.

Brian
brian.brianschweitzer@gmail.com

modding

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I like the idea behind your tech tree, as I've said in another thread of yours, and in fact learnt from looking at it things I could do that I didn't know about.

An idea you might like to consider for your tech tree is to stagger the range. To slow down colony rush, apart from increasing the costs of colony ships, is to curtail range initially.

After some experimentation with figures yesterday, I found the easiest way was to set Range Ability to -250 (beyond -270 appears to make no difference). Then you can smatter range increases (or decreases!) throughout the tech tree however you want.

For my Slow Start mod, I set the -250 under the Hyperdrive tech, because everyone gets that at the beginning. Then I set up 30 Range techs (Range I - Range XXX) each with +10, but you will probably want to do it quite differently.

If you're interested in what I've done, follow the link.

Slow Start Mod

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I will just pipe up to add that the points made here are ones I agree with.

Further adjustments to the tech tree are something I would like to see, both in the areas of relative costs of some techs, and the ability to set multiple pre-reqs for techs.

I hope that StarDock at least adds this to the game for those of us that would like to mod it, even if it not part of the 'normal' setup.

I also have long thought that ship range was too great in the early game, so I am going to pull down the Slow Start Mod to see what you have done there.

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I like the idea of techs having consequences

Sounds good. Will have to try that.

both in the areas of relative costs of some techs,

Yep, really needed.

and the ability to set multiple pre-reqs for techs.

I guess that's not in the game so that the AI is a "better" opponent. Easier to code.

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This game has so many things for different people that people want to optimize. They really in essence did a good job or we wouldn't be thinking. Keep posting, and try suggestions box they take those seriously. Though if you want to convince them that you beat the game on suicidal like it's a cakewalk you should get a metaverse ID and score badges to prove it. That will add some BEEF to your suggestion.

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Actually, I've tried, but the MV always rejects my attempts to login and submit. So I quit bothering - and to be honest, no offense to anyone, but I don't really care where my standings are, just how fun the game is for me to play.

One side effect I've noticed from this mod is that the minors seem to take a much more active role - I've seen major races declare war on minors much more often now, except the minor races actually seem to adapt pretty well- they go for mostly weapons and armor, while most majors are going for colonization, so the minors end up able to defend themselves even against massive odds. (Reminds me of some games where I've purposefully not done the colony rush, on gigantic, and beat the universe from a 2 planet start.

)

I'm also seeing much more differentiation in the turn to turn balence of the AI - no longer does every AIs seem to spend it all each turn. In one game, the Torrians took every population growth skill, and went for all the terraforming skills. They were massively far back in the tech game on the other branches, whereas the Dark Yor did everything but colonization. Few turns later, I noticed the Dark Yor had 150k in the bank, and the Torrians had almost caught up on techs.

The one thing I do wish, though, is that the map could get colorations for minor races as well.

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LEt us know if you make any more changes. I'll be interested.

My own beef with the game is "too much, too soon" which is why I've been working on a Slow Start Mod. I'm keen to create a mod which is an amalgamation of both of ours if that's all right with you.

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Sounds fine to me. On yours, the only suggestion I would make is to be really careful where you're putting the heavy early -'s. I've noticed with mine, I forget offhand the name of the tech, but the initial one which allows for larger fleets... I have a heavy negative there - I've noticed you'll get one or two civs which research it, and take the penalty, but the others will tend to want to trade around that one tech, not taking it. Only way to force civ's to take the penalty was to make the positives significantly good enough to justify taking the negatives.

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That's logistics you're talking about I think. Yeah, I put a -3. It might be too much, perhaps just a -2 or -1.

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I'd really love if Standard Gal-Civ had techs with multiple pre-reqs, and several either/or techs, incldusing several that decide the basics of your society/civ at the beginning of the game.

This is maybe a rather grand analogy, but what if your tech for starbases, starships, and building tech had three branches. Mechanical (Earth), Biological (Dread Lords) or Energy (other).

Mechanical would be able to buy and have much higher production as well as being able to sell ships and quickly upgrade. Biological ships and buildings would build faster and heal faster but be unable to be bought or rushed, as well as having lower production but perhaps supporting more of the population. Energy based would be an interesting alternative as well...

I know my little example was a bit out there, but I'd still like to be able to see the techs a civ rsearches really define who it is, and make diffeent Civs' really emerge as radically distinct later in the game.

For example, it'd be nice if there were multiple government choices, rather than having them researched in order. Empire, Star Empire, Galactic Empire, or Democracy, Star Democracy, Galactic Democracy, etc. So if I want to be a Giant, Evil Empire, I can work on making secret police centers, but also having high loyalty and super fast production and co-ordination with no lag in the decisions. While a Galactic Democracy would be super good at diplomacy and all the red tape it involves...

In short, I'd like to see more technologies, unique pathing like multiple prequisites, several different paths, and make tech in general less of a linear struggle, and more one of choices.

And not ever Star Empire need be evil, either, just decisive and very loyal.

I'd just like to see more, it'd be cool.

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Modified Tech Tree *Beta*

Modified Tech Tree *Beta*

Modified Tech Tree Beta

Modified Tech Tree Beta