Well, you don't need Harpoon II that badly.

My biggest problem are trades that are just plain dumb for the AI to turn down. In my last game I tried to trade my Phasor V for the AIs Phasor II, and I had all of the diplo techs, translators, showcase... and an "incredible advantage in diplomacy". Nope, AI wouldn't trade its lower level tech from the same tree as mine. That is just frustrating.

The other thing I have noticed is that now Super Diplomat AIs is a sure way to die. Super Diplomats demand so much for peace... that it is just easier to wipe them out, which other AIs or myself happily do.

In most cases, the new trade rules are helping the AI I think, and that's a good thing (IMO). But, there seem to be situations every game now where AI stubborness in the diplo screen just gets it in trouble, and hurts its potential.

Exactly why I turn tech trading off. You can learn what techs a computer has with espionage.

Smart AI Frogboy??? Looks like a good deal to me.

Weapons tech is pretty highly valued by the AI, but it works both ways. You'll pay extortionate prices for any weapons tech you want from them, but at the same time you can usually rip them off with your own weapon tech (assuming your not after another weapons tech).

From looking at this the tech trading in DL was better.

Actually I kind of did, the Korath were up to Photonic Torpedoes. I was trying to catch up so I wouldn't be helpless in case he turned on me. He had already demanded tribute on a couple of occasions, which I refused. I was hoping I could at least skip a step.

That's not what I'm discovering. There is the odd deal where I can make a fair exchange, more or less, but most of the time I have to sell my soul in order to get what I want. Granted, with 17 races in my game, I'm still finding it possible to trade my way to tech superiority, but it's definitely a lot harder than it was. Which is actually a good thing really, it was way too easy before.



That's exactly what I was trying to do there. He already had Harpoon III, I was trying for his older tech. I had Harpoon I myself, so I was hoping on skipping a research step on my way to Photonic Torpedoes, which the Korath already had.



At least the first stage. All those Advanced versions I listed I got through trading, I hadn't researched any of them myself. But there's no way I've ever been able to get any of the first stage techs, even with trying to trade them another one in exchange.



I also think part of it is that the AI looks at how many techs you have in comparison, and acts accordingly. I find the times where I seem to get the best deals are when we're more or less on equal footing. If it has alot more than you, it will try and prevent you from catching up. If you have alot more, then it will try to extort all it can from you in exchange for it's techs.

I'm quite happy with the current tech trading. Most of the times AI's don't agree to trades I'd wish to do but with persistence (checking the diplo screen almost every week to check if they've got something new and making lots of propositions) I get numerous good trades each game.



I believe that a restraint like this to your trading will harm you in the long run. Very often in the early/mid game there is a single race that poses the greatest threat to you (usually Drengin or Korath as they both seem to expand effectively and are aggressive). To be able to resist that threat my initial military techs are picked to work against that threat AND through trading I try ensure that my precious research points aren't wasted against others either.

- I try to get weapon techs of the type the threatening AI has through trade so that I can spread the same weapons (hopefully not as advanced as the enemy #1 but advanced enough to make it their primary weapons type) to as many AI's as possible. This ensures my defenses are good against majority of races. Don't forget to take all of the prior techs too, AI's seems to give them for free and you can trade them all one by one to other AI's.

- I'm willing to trade older defenses against that "majority" weapon type to any AI that is likely to get into war against the AI I consider threatening. From midgame on I can give lower level defenses to anyone willing to give me something good in return.

- Little later in the game I have no objection of trading low level weapon techs from any branch (like Lasers which can often be traded for a good price even quite late into game) for anything I consider useful.

- Minor races are too exploitable: I rarely care what I give to them. If they have something I want I can make a "bad" trade as they never threat my empire.

- Most importantly, I'm very eager to spread new planetary improvements to all AI's (including Terraforming techs which are quite highly valued by AI). That has two benefits: 1) upgrading planets eats AI's resources and 2) I want to invade planets that don't require complete rebuilding.

And remember to research those diplomatic techs You don't have to go for the overkill with them, a small advantage is often enough.

What I meant was this: if you're trading that Harpoon II don't forget to take all earlier missile techs as well because AI seems to give them for free with the more advanced one. You may have to give a lot for tech you're actually wanting but in many cases all the techs prior to that level don't increase the price of the trade at all while you're still able to trade those lower versions for a decent stuff.

Well see that's the point of this game. Your style dictates certain things while mine doesn't. I've not lost a game where I refused to trade weapons or defenses. My reasoning in general is this: I don't know who I'm going to attack or be attacked by so why allow a potential enemy to have the very things that give me an edge? And I shouldn't say *never* because there are occasions where an AI will offer me a weapon or defense in exchange for one that is of equivalent values at which point I accept. But I do not initiate a trade like that myself. As I said the majority of the time I don't initiate a trade with a tech to get a tech. Most of my trades are for BCs.

Also trading techs becomes easier if you are:
1) Same alignment
2) On good terms
3) Allies

Even those 3 things though aren't absolute. The AI is fairly good at determining when the player is just trying to swindle them.

There is no need to have the same weapon tech as the enemy. What's important is to have the defense for its primary weapon choice. In most games I tend to research 2 weapon branches and all 3 defense branches. Mind you not all to the same level. But I've found that being able to adjust my ship builds according to the latest war gives me a decent advantage over the AI at least until SD tweaks it again.

The only thing I have major problems with is what was mentioned earlier, which is the occasions where the AI turns down ludicrously favorable deals for no reason whatsoever.

I am also mildy suspicious there are special rules or something behind the scenes when you take the Super Trader super ability (which I tend to do). One would think, based purely on the time it takes to research it, Master Trade could be traded for just about anything early in the game, but I can rarely get anyone to trade anything for it, even if you exclude military and colonization techs. Maybe the AI just doesn't want trade tech?

-Pleth

Sure. Since the new trading rules I have posted 7 suicidal wins on the metaverse. Most of them with tech trading on. Now I didn't get any tech with it on, but I gave away tech to manipulate the enemies and start wars... there is still plenty you can do to try and control the enemy.

I understand what your saying, but to me the trading rules makes the game one dimensional, plus I have no techs to prusade anyone with or a whole lot of cash for that matter, and the one AI I can prusade is not much stronger, he has about 6 techs to trade to my 2, and he doesn't like me much(probably cause i still have laser based ship to their photon torpedos).



actually if i can get anything, usually its weapons. but if i want to get the trading tech, its all but impossible i usually have to get advanced trading first because the AI will just about give that tech away which makes no sense.