I quite like it, but don't have any problem with the idea of a toggle for it. Still, it's no reason not to get the game, which is a vast improvement over DL (which was already a great game) in almost every respect.

I'm aware of your opinion on the matter Bingjack, and like I said as far as I'm concerned you're welcome to a toggle. I prefer this system to the old, because in the old it was simply too easy (and too inexpensive) to build up a mass of intel and start stealing techs from other civs. This is far more directed, the sabotage effects can be put to good use under certain circumstances, and the money sink aspects actually help balance out the runaway train effect becoming a top tier civ tends to produce. That's all my opinion of course, and I know I'm not going to change your mind on the matter.

Regardless, since there seem to be a number of people that don't like the new system the easiest solution is to just let you turn it off and ignore it.

Ah, yes, thats what I feared. Damn. If Stardock patches the game to make Espionage optional, I will buy DA. Otherwise not.

As Bingjack says, that'd be a rather serious error in judgment. The improvements vastly outweigh any perceived inconvenience in the new espionage system.

I've found it fairly easy to get to advanced espionage level with multiple opponents. However, I do it in serial fashion. Drop all of your spies on one AI. Playing as the Krynn, that would be 15-30, depending on the stage of the game. When I dropped 30 spies on the Drengin, I got to advanced espionage level in about 5 weeks.

Playing as other races, it would take too long to make 30 spies, but dropping 10 or 12 on a race does cramp their style, and would take a long time for them to knock out.

I don't see much tech stealing happening though. From the description of 'advanced' you'd think that you would get their techs the turn after they did, but it seems more like a tech steal once every 6 or 8 months. Is the tech stealing rate tied to the number of spies you have deployed at the current instant?

I'm not sure about the cost-effectiveness of spying. It is certainly expensive, even if you have a big espionage skill. Of course, if you've been spending money on espionage for a long time, it's hard for any particular opponent to take out a significant number of them. If you reach the point where you can drop 30 spies on someone you are at war with, that's a pretty crushing advantage that's impossible to negate on any short time-frame. The most likely outcome is that almost all of your spies will survive to direct at the next victim.

Espionage is definitely more interesting since the patch, since with tech trading turned off, you have to steal it.

Each turn, every spy that you have deployed in an enemy empire give you a point towards the next espionage level for that empire. So if you have one spy deployed, it might take 8 turns to reach 'low'. If you drop 10 spies on him at once, you'll hit low on the first turn and medium in a few turns. If you drop 30 spies at once, you'll probably hit medium on the first turn and advanced in just 5 or 6 turns. If you only have one spy out there at a time, it will probably take a few years to hit advanced.

New espionage system - I'm sure SD will continue to make improvements to it. I'd really like to see the ability to assign missions to the spies like a few other games have had.

Is it a deal breaker for DA? Heck no! You are only hurting yourself by not picking it up. Spies are not *necessary* in the game. You can win without them. You can win without them being a nuisance. Now on the higher difficulties where the AI is swimming in BCs yes they can start to overwhelm you. But on Tough it is possible to only ever need one or two in reserve. I simply research Counter Espionage and build that building on important worlds. The rest, well, they can just rot with spies for all I care since it doesn't impact my ability to maintain large fleets of ships.

As for gathering intelligence I just don't anymore. It never really gives me any more information then I can figure out on my own via other screens. Besides to get *Low* all you need is 3 spies in an empire for 1 or 2 turns. So its not like you've got to invest large sums of BCs to get the basic info like the influence you are generating on an enemy planet.

And in case you are wondering you can see what is built on a planet the instant you have a spy in reserve. May be an exploit ... may be by design. But either way you don't need *High* or *Advanced* anymore.