spheresus

Join Date 03/2006

Large population planets pointless and impracticle

The values of morale and the effect it has on your population happiness changed alot for DA from DL, morale got nerfed so to speak. I find in DA it is hard to keep a populace happy and entertainment buildings do little to help, best way to adjust happiness is with tax values.

I've done some simple experiments to find out what is the best way to run an economy planet. In DL I found the best way was to mix farms, markets, entertainment as 1/1/1 in that ratio, this gave me more money then all population or all markets and I liked it that way. It was nice to see balance and to see all the buildings being put to good use, nice if not boring or predictable.

DA changed this and I can no longer have high population planets with out dropping taxes down to nothing.. gone are those 20b+ worlds of mine. Entertainment buildings are utterly a waste of space they give a poultry 3% increase in happiness default. Now the best way to make a planet into a cash cow, the only real way is to fill it up with markets. What I do is have at least over 10b population and 1 entertainment building and the rest of the tiles with markets.

This is kind of sad for me because having large populace worlds was good for troop recuitment and voting, it also did bring in some decent cash. Now I can't get a population aover 20b with out dropping taxes to single digits and if I did I would be losing money instead of making any. Like ship defenses the entertainment building went the way of the dodo bird. I can run a strong rich economy and never plop a entertainment building.

All in all I am impressed with DA it is definately an improvment over DL and I love the extereme colonization idea. The AI had it's quirkiness removed that frankly made it look moronic but still poses no real challange even at the higher difficulty settings. Good expansion I'm pleased with it, it's just sad to see some parts of the game like ship defenses and entertainment be pushed to the side of irrevelance.

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well there is a planet quality bug that is going on, which will affect the way the planets work and the economy, so that is probably part of what you're seeing. Since the PQ bug is messing things up, might want to do the analysis after its been fixed as the bug will keep the morale and other stuff from working properly.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

AFAIK anything beyond 2 farms has been pretty much useless since v1.3 of DL.

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Voqar

Join Date 03/2003

+21

The population of earth is around 6b. If there were 20b people on this planet we'd all be pretty unhappy about it, I'd think. There's a lot of people unhappy now!

I dunno what's worse, unrealistically overpopulated worlds to get taxes multiplied by money buildings, or building world after world filled up with stock markets.

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Both, really.

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Hi!

DL I found the best way was to mix farms, markets, entertainment as 1/1/1 in that ratio

I too have been playing DL with about the same mix, with a bit less farms and more markets. However after I've read about taxes at 80% I began to wonder, and did some tests. What I found was quite surprising: if I held pop on all planets at 10-12B (only one farm, or none on small planets) without a single morale building, the rest Stock Markets (with their small morale bonus), I could tax that population in range from 70% to 80%, and still had approval well above 60%, with the 3 morale wonders above 80% and with mining one morale resource above 90%. And the money I got from such an empire was significantly larger than from my former empires with 15-20B planets and 49% taxes.

In DA situation changed only so much, that I put a single morale building besides a farm. As a rule of thumb I don't put either on a planet below class 8. But I plan to do some extensive testing of that money production, as I don't know how much the formulas have changed. At a first glance it looks like they didn't much.

BR, Iztok

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I've only played a few games in DA, but I've noticed that I need 2 entertainments to control the unhappiness produced by one farm. In DL, I only needed 1 E for 1 F.

I suspect a very simple reason. In DL, one farm (on any planet other than your capital) produced 10K population. It appears that in DA, one farm produces 13K population. That one change may account for the need for 2 farms.

I also find that I need more economic buildings.

So in general, my template build queue goes: factory, research, factory, (starport, if planet large enough), factory, research, factory, 2 x economic, 2 x entertainment, farm. Then, depending on the planet size, I build an embassy to bump up influence (useful for controlling asteroids), and add whatever specialization I want.

With this, I've found that I can produce a steady stream of about 200+ income per turn, with production up to 100% and taxes between 65% - 70%.

That is, if the AI doesn't attack me first . . . . !

Alex

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But I plan to do some extensive testing of that money production, as I don't know how much the formulas have changed. At a first glance it looks like they didn't much.

I'd be interested to read what you find out Iztok. Like I stated elsewhere, even playing on 'normal' I am getting my ass kicked, and so far I can only see my economy as being the deciding factor on my 'ass-kickyness' so to speak. It seems the pop/taxes/morale are the main factor in success now more than ever and I can't seem to get a hand on it when every civ in my game is relentlessly attacking me pretty early on in the game. Getting my population to grow has been challenging and their morale stays pretty shitty, even running at a 28% tax rate (which doesn't bring in enough cash unless I drop my overall production rate, thereby gaining nothing). Switching govs wasn't an option (I never change from the default 'imperialism' or whatever it is... I like to be oppressive!) since it seems that trick only made things worse as my economy stagnated and people became rebellious as I watched my approval drop to like 12%!
I definitely need to rethink my strats!

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Hi!

I'd be interested to read what you find out Iztok

OFC you'll do!

That's the point of community. With this game I feel a seriuous lack of numbers. Being a long-time and successfull Stars! number-cruncher I need them here too!!!

It seems the pop/taxes/morale are the main factor in success now more than ever

Very true. Without good economy it's really hard to get anything else.

and I can't seem to get a hand on it when every civ in my game is relentlessly attacking me pretty early on in the game.

Huh? How's that? In my games I'm usually the one that starts attacking others, and I'm playing well above normal. Do you have good diplomacy (a + in relations)? If not, consider building Diplo Translators. Do you have a trade route to your every neighbour (a + or ++ in relations)? Do you have fake defenders (a cargo ship in orbit with tree cheapest attack-1 weapons, that shows 3 * attack 2)? All that helps to get your neighbours off your throat, and going for somebody else, so you're free to develop in peace until you're ready.

Getting my population to grow has been challenging and their morale stays pretty shitty, even running at a 28% tax rate

I find playing Drengin in the campaign really easy. They have an inherent 25% morale bonus. With 1 point spent for additional 10% helps me running my empire in expansion phase at ~47% tax while still having 100% morale on ALL planets. Holding the pop at 100% approval doubles the growth, that is already boosted by 25% bonus from 3 race builder points and 10% from first very cheap tech (medicine?), so I have at the end of the first year twice the population of the second greatest empire. If I'd tax them to 65% (just to have them all above 40% approval to stil have the base growth), I could get more money I'd be able to spend with my low-productive infrastructure. But in most missions I didn't need to do that, they proceded quite slowly compared to my previous games. Probably because the main AI bully Dregin was not present.

BR, Iztok

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Hi!

In DL, one farm (on any planet other than your capital) produced 10K population. It appears that in DA, one farm produces 13K population. That one change may account for the need for 2 farms.

Farm does not "produce" population. It gives food to feed them, and they grow to the max food or the max planet capacity. The food outputs are:
- An Initiall Colony gives food for 6B pop.
- A Civ Capital gives food for 12B pop.
- A Basic farm can feed an additional 3B pop.
- Xeno Farm gives additional 5B food. If you upgade Basic Farm to Xeno you'll get only additional 2B food.
- etc.

So if you build a Basic Farm on a colony, it will have enough food to have 9B population. Of the planet class it depends if the population will really grow to that number. As a rule of thumb don't build any farm on a planet below class 8.

BR, Iztok

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I conquered a planet with a low population (high Class world), so I built a Fertility Clinic and Food Distribution Center (what's it called?). Pretty soon I had a 20B world who's morale hovered around 35%

. What's funny is that it became my prime transport building world. My transports boasted dual Advanced Troop modules, and when launching one or two of them the morale shot up to 100%, heh. So a high population was useful in that regard.

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Hi Evil Stormbringer,

Iztok's advice is very good. The Altarians usually go for the diplo translater and the Terrans go for the crystals of harmony. The crystals are misnamed they should be called money crystals since they allow you to have much higher taxes without lowering your approval rate. Your approval rate needs to be over 50% with the starting goverment type and 60%+ with all others. Best keep it above 70%. Well the better goverments give you a higher economic bonus. You can still consider yourself oppresive, just be oppressive to the AIs and not to your own people.
One last piece of advice: If you must lower your productivity slider below 100% the AI's will have your balls sooner or later.

Have fun

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Huh? How's that? In my games I'm usually the one that starts attacking others

Yes, in my games this 'WAS' the case. Now, however, no. My diplomacy wasn't bad (I can't remember the numbers, but it wasn't bad in my eyes) and trade was so-so. No sooner would I start a trade route and then bang... war. Every trade ship I had was pretty much cannon fodder for the two games that I tried extensive trade tactics. Hell, I even played one of the games with Super Trader as my ability, to no avail. As far as the 'dummy defenders' of course I used them, hell, I'd like to think I invented the strat (just kidding people) but yeah, no engines, no real defenses, just a stupid little gun, and even this wouldn't stop them from coming. I knew it was over when the Drengin joined with the rest of the civs ( I got the old, "even though you are at war with our enemies, we feel..."). I found that odd considering we were the only two evil races left and the Drengin wouldn't even trade with me regardless of what I offered.
I have to admit, it was neat watching the enemy track down my freighters and destroy them without issues but after a while the relentless onslaught so early in the game (go look at my Meta games and you'll see how long they lasted)really just made it pointless to continue, even though I did. Like I said, I might not be the best player, but I've never been handed defeat so easily on the Normal diff, but then that's what makes this game great... REPLAY VALUE!

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One last piece of advice: If you must lower your productivity slider below 100% the AI's will have your balls sooner or later.

Just saw your reply... seems like every Meta game I played forced me to drop the all mighty slider, sometimes to a whopping 25% or less. Pissed me off royally. Regardless, it seemed that once war was declared upon me, my economy tanked (and I had the 'patented' Mumblefratz econ starbase pattern)and my production slider could pretty much never again rise above, oh, 60% or so, so I had myself a huge garage sale!
And yes, I will continue to have fun! As you can tell, that's what the game is about for me. Am I embarrassed to post such lame game losing scores... no.

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To help with your economy troubles I usually divert 1/2 of all my tiles to economy, 1/4 for research and last 1/4 for production. With this model I will rake in a lot of cash which is really good for rushing those wonder building builds. To help keep other races of my back early game I research weapons pretty early and build some token forces of light defenders. My main defense usually are military bases on the borders of the local bully. If he declares war on me my puny light defenders eat his heavy attack fighters thanks to the bonuses my military bases provide. Sooner or later the aggresor will sue for peace.

My custom race has the super trader ability which I think is the most useful one. I quickly create all my trade routes to a friendly neighbor. This will bring in 1/2 my profits and make a ally for life. When war does come around my trading partner is always willing to lend a hand. With diplomacy I make the trade partner declare war on my enemy and I purchase any ships he has with all the excess money I have that's collecting dust.

I try to specialize my planets as much as I can whenever possible. Im not shy about colonizing those worlds far away from my empire. With those worlds I develop them in a balance way. They make enough cash to pay for themselves while they build ships and contribute to research.

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Hi!

> Huh? How's that? In my games I'm usually the one that starts attacking others
Yes, in my games this 'WAS' the case. Now, however, no

Erm, do you check regularly the relations (the pluses and minuses you have with that civ) and the graphs? Just from those two I can pretty well predict what will happen. But in your case it seems you've been a target of SuperManipulator (or whatever is that super ability called, that can make everyone declare war on you). IIRC that should be Drath. I have yet to play a sandbox game, so I've never been at the receiveing end of that abilty, but I'd say the race that has it, has to be nursed very carefully. Or better yet, make someone else go to war with it, and harvest on the consequences.

BR, Iztok

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But in your case it seems you've been a target of SuperManipulator (or whatever is that super ability called, that can make everyone declare war on you). IIRC that should be Drath.

"Damn it Jim! I'm a doctor not a bricklayer!"
I never even gave that one a second thought! Considering that five out of my six games had super abilities turned on, that could have very well been the case. I was able to handle one, maybe even two 'fronts' of the war, but every civ rushing me... sheesh. Thanks for the tips Iztok, you better believe I'm going to take it to them once again!

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well, i don't think i can add much that hasn't been said yet. but i do have one thing.

i don't rush-buy anything. i use that money to run my economy in the negative for as long as i can, which seems to be the usual thing to do. however, i make researching to sensors an early priority, so that i can build additional survey ships (note: i used to love building cargo-hulled surveyors and upgrading them and their bonus HP to large ships later on, but sadly that's been nerfed). impulse engines become a secondary priority, even if i don't use them (the bonus movement point is worth it). a lot of my early economy depends on playing with abundant anomolies and cashing in on them.

only other thing i'd add: i send my colony ships out with only 100 population, so that the other 400 can stay on my home planet and be taxed. i can always send an unused colonizer back home and 'move' 500k people when things are less urgent (i always have an extra one or two by the end of the initial rush). i don't even develop my smallest worlds early on (PQ 1-3). they just can't do enough to make it worth it yet (but they're extremely valuable by the end of the game when terraforming's been researched). PQ 4-8 become econ worlds always. all PQ 9+ eventually get a farm, except sometimes for my research capitol.

last point: tech trading off tends to slow things down a lot; turning minors on tends to speed things up.

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