Orion66

Join Date 02/2006

Spies - VERY IMPORTANT FOR PROGRAMMERS!

Hi,

I have been playing DA and here are my few things to say:

1)Spies - I think it is the WORST thing in the game. Spies are to powerfull! How come 1 spy can disable whole building??? The enemy of whole galaxy - The drengins have spies on almoust EVERY tile of their ALL plantes! IT IS SO STUPID!!! All of their bulidings are cripled! It is SICK!
Now whay I should say if I have 10 enemy agents on my 4 plantes. And I produce 1 agent for only 10 turns so how can I defend? Im spending max on my spies. Sick!

Dear programers! You should do something about that. Here are my ideas:

- Spies should NOT be able do disable the WHOLE building. The should disable only the part of its bonuses - maybe 25% - not more! Reconsider putting more than one spy one one tile.
- Spies could disable buliding only for a period of time - for example max 10 turns and then they should automaticcly go back to the empire and rest 5 turns.
- Do you want SUPER HIPER SPIES that always succes?! Sick! When using agent the should have some chances for succes and some for a failure. There should be 3 or more experience of spies - novice (20% o succes), regular (35%), veteran (70%), super spy(90%). Each with better chances of suces!
- There should be few missions for spies:
One: disabling the part the buliding for a period of time (easy)
Two: destroying the building (hard)
Three: Steal money (medium)
Four: Steal research points (medium)
Five: Steal the ship (hard)
Six: Steal the tech (hard)
Seven: Sabotage/Destroy ship (hard)

All of above missions should have diffrent chances of succes!

Also there should be some way to train spies. Maybe even to exchange our captured spies for enemy captured spies (like in cold war).
To make the game smooth and balanced there should be some limit in having agents on mission and on pool.

***IMPORTANT***

Also, using spies against should be treated as act of "cold" agression. But to make this sense I have to know what agents I have - I mean who they are working for - for what race. I think it is obvious. If I have 10 enemy spies (sic!) and I nulify them then I should know WHO sent them! Also then if I know it is Drengin spy there should be a new diplomatic option abviable "Stop spying!" and "remove you agents or we will declare war!". True isn't it?
Also. Spy is Spy. It means that if he is planted in my empire he should be invisible for me or hard to detect. True? Of corse it is true! Spy is spy and he does not scream "hey! am here and I have just disabled you manufracting capital, nulify me please!"
You have to rework using spies and their role in the game. Right now it makes no sense, and makes the game worse and meanless and no logical. But I know that is is first beta and I hope my ideas will help you to make the game playable becouse right now it is not.

2) Now some thing other. The graphic thing. If I see planet with its value 15 I think it sould be a big planet. And if the planet has low value 3 or 5 it should be smaller. A mean that the size of planet that we can see on main screen should be proportional to its value/tile numbers. It would be very nice and would make the game more transparent.

That is all for now. I will think what else can be improved.
I hope you will consider my ideas. I think they are pretty good.

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You must keep in mind that this is the first BETA and things are bound to be balanced. Werdell did write about this in a journal entry. But its better to overact than not act at all

I like your ideas about the spies, I have no comparison ground since Iam not as far in game to try spys myself. I only think that a super spy (I assume these come with super spy racial ability) could totally disable a building. I like the idea that a super spy race can actually wage total war with its ability. With other races I think they should use % chances to disable a building and maybe not totally disable them either.

About knowing whos spy it is. I think there should be a percentage of chance to know whose spy it was, it should not be 100% sure knowledge when you destroy a spy. I do agree about the visibility to see spys. I have not tested the spys yet, but I agree with you that they should be invisible untill they do some damage. After that its quite obvious that you have a spy on planet.

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The spy situation is overdone. All the game needs is Shogun style shinobi. Put them on a planet and let them stir up trouble in a random way every turn. Or a plain counter-intelligence slider for each planet would do. I'm more interested in strategic FUN like taking over starbases.

With the new restrictions on planets, increasing default Starbase strength, giving them a realistic chance of becoming powerful units and allow players to steal rather than destroy these bases, it would be FUN.

Until February, I'd like to post scenarios in the metaverse. Go to the Metaverse section of the forum post "Metaverse scenarios" to register your agreement with this idea.

Thanks.

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- Spies could disable buliding only for a period of time - for example max 10 turns and then they should automaticcly go back to the empire and rest 5 turns.

That would add alot of micromanagement, if you had alot of spies you would be constantly reassigning them whereas now you just leave them until they either die or you decide to redeploy.

If you had a percentage chance of affecting a building then the AI (or you for that matter) would get some use out the tile when the agent fails his rolls. In that case its not 'necessary' to boot the agent off periodically.

Besides if I want to dump resources into neutralising one of your structures then you should have to invest resources into stopping me.

It sounds like there are some balancing issues and Frogboy has said that the espionage AI is hardly there at all yet so there is plenty of work still to go in on this. Just remember to breathe deep.

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I agree with everyone here somewhat..the spy feature is interesting but not balanced yet so its hard to play with. I had one game(large galaxy,9 opponents, occasional everything else and all aliens set on sub-normal intel.) I was playing the Altarians and was doing fairly well..aka the top civ...when out of nowhere i was bombarded with spies. Spies shutting down my factories, markets and research centers, at one point i had my manufacturing planet entirely covered with spies and a spy on almost every single other planet. I was spending more on espionage then any of the other civs but i couldnt keep up with them and they were all 'friendly' with me. I couldnt figure out who it was!? I suspected the second civ, the Yor but they werent spending nearly as much on espionage as the Korath. I tried going after them with a spy or two(when not trying to nulify my manufacturing capital every other turn) but even though they werent spending as much as me, they still found a way to nulify each of my spies. That only led me to the conclusion that I had multiple civs spying on me at the same time because they were all jealous!? haha. Im wondering now if theres a tech farther down the line that counters spies..ill have to check next time.

Anyway, I know this feature still has to be balanced...and I agree that it be set so that one spy cant completly shut down an entire building. I like the idea of a random sabatoge..set a spy loose on a planet and it takes hits here and there making it hard for that civ to track it because its always on the move. The longer its there, the more intel you have on that civ, point in case id like to see more intel gathering than destruction. Or have an option to choose, if you choose intel then the spy cant be nulified so fast and he's on that planet for 10 turns then when you have enough intel switch to sabotage and he hunkers down in one building and wreaks havoc. Id also like to see spies on stations, mining outposts and ships...but only if they had the intel/sabotage option.

ALL AROUND THOUGH, LOVE THE GAME!! GREAT JOB GUYS.
The new graphics(the ships in orbit), and the asteroids...i love that i dont have to build fifty billion space miners and that they can be reused like constructors *should* be.

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Any way. Having 10 spies on 1 planet while the are disableing 10 bulidings is.... well... funny? stupid?
But I know. It is only beta.... and thanks god is is just beta

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Holy knee jerk reaction there sparky. There have been several posts about the fact that this is a BETA and not just a BETA the first build of said BETA. It will get better trust me. I'm sure there is a list several pages long of things that still need to be tweaked and balanced. That is why they wanted all of us to help out. But I can say screaming about how things are broken or MUST be addressed NOW will only get you ignored. So do us all a favor and take a deep breath or count to 10 before posting next time

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The whole point which has been mentioned over and over; for a beta is to

A)Test
B)Report
C)Communicate
D)Provide Solutions
E)Be patient

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It doesn't seem to be very easy to defend against spies when everyone gangs up on you.

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My first (and only) game was me as the Terrans against the Krynn, Korath, Torians, Drengin, and Noldor (a custom enemy with Feanor as leader and Beleriand as homeworld...). It was on tough. As I quickly became the dominant civ (aided in part by the plague to which no one else bothered to research the cure - eventually I just had pity on them and sold the tech to everyone else) my civ was flooded with agents. Pretty well placed ones too. At one point I had 21 agents on my planets. I just tried to keep 'em off my precursor mine and the manufacturing capital that was on the same planet. They definitely need balancing, but as it is they're a lot of fun, and they work as advertised - if you're the big dog, everyone else is going to gang up on you.

One real problem, however - because of the "gang up" issue, I could never keep agents on other people's planets with any kind of regularity - they could always nullify mine and still have enough to plant on me. This mean I never was able to develop any espionage information past "low." Any thoughts on this?

One cool thing I was able to do offensively, however, was put an agent on a farm. After trying the starport (didn't work) I thought I'd try to sabotage Toria's basic farm. Sure enough, the pop dropped from 14 billion to 12 billion! I'm not sure if it dropped immediately or by the next turn. Either way it might turn into an exploit if one agent can jump from farm to farm across an empire putting poison in he well...

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I dont understand you. Whay are you attacking me? I KNOW this is BETA! So that is why made this post with my ideas. What did you expected from me? To clap my hands?

The whole point which has been mentioned over and over; for a beta is to

A)Test
B)Report
C)Communicate
D)Provide Solutions
E)Be patient

And what am I doing do you think?

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Oh ok... my bad. I suppose you always get your way when you start shouting (using all caps on a forum) and calling things stupid. Besides that there have been several posts already from Brad talking about how the AI is still a major work in progress. I'm not attacking your ideas at all since I do agree with most of them. Its the presentation that needs work. Shall we break down your post?

I think it is the WORST thing in the game. Spies are to powerfull! How come 1 spy can disable whole building??? The enemy of whole galaxy - The drengins have spies on almoust EVERY tile of their ALL plantes! IT IS SO STUPID!!! All of their bulidings are cripled! It is SICK!

Hmmm... lets see here. Aside from you ignoring that the current beta is not balanced and that the AI is not completed you are calling the new spy feature the worst thing in the game. I'd be surprised if the devs even bothered to read beyond this paragraph.

Right now I'm sure the devs are far more worried about things crashing or not working as intended. They'll get to balancing soon enough. I know it can be difficult at times since we don't always know when something is working as intended or if it is broken. It is entirely possible that an enemy planet with spies on every tile is how the system is supposed to work for now.

Dear programers! You should do something about that. Here are my ideas:

Calling them out has the exact opposite effect you want. This makes it sound as if they are fumbling around blindly with the design until you miraculously come to their rescue with your must have ideas. In the future if you really want to be taken seriously post about what you feel needs improvement and may be something about how you'd like to see it work without the ???? and !!!!!. SD has shown many times over that it will adjust the game to suit the majority of players when the issues are presented in a way that isn't demanding or in some way implying you are entitled to these changes just cause you purchased the game.

Hence my reaction to your post and my statement there of. What I really need to do is take my own advice from way back when people used to post absurd things about the AI and just count to ten... or even better ignore the post all together.

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Well english is not my native language. So sometime it is difficult for me to write something in the way I would like to. I didn't realize that my post could be taken as "demanding". I do NOT demand anything. I was so kind to write my opinion. I just wanted to be helpful that's all. Anyway if somebody feels bad about my tone - then am sorry but it was not on purpouse.
I like GC and wanted to share my ideas. It is my first beta so I don't know few rules while writing post to the programres. Anyway I think that writing about my post and my politness or its lack is not the main goal.

So I shared my ideas, right now I will stop playing (becouse for ME it has no sense to continue) wait for next patch and see the results. I hope the DA in its final stage will have arms and legs.

Ah and also. For me big letters are not loud shout but I want them to be expressive/distinct/telling. That is all.

Best regards for all from Poland

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That's pretty pathological, man. Your post is up there for everyone to see.

No matter what your native tongue is, it still has "asshole" written all over it.

For me big letters are not loud shout but I want them to be expressive/distinct/telling. That is all.

Liar. If you're smart enough to purchase beta software, you know that all caps IS LIKE YELLING. You know that the *asterisk* and the _underscore_ are used for emphasizing points on a forum.

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I was so kind to write my opinion.

LOL, thanks ever so much.

No matter what your native tongue is, it still has "asshole" written all over it.

QFT This guy rubs me all wrong...

But to stay on topic, the original 'suggestions' for improvements sound alot like the spy system that was used in Imperium Galactica 2. With spy/hero characters that each had thier own xp lvl and you could send them for training/actual missions of set duration. While there was alot you could do with spies in that game I remember it did lead to alot of micromanaging of spies - was very distracting in the middle of a war having to go reassign spies everytime they returned from missions or else they would sit idle.

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The whole point which has been mentioned over and over; for a beta is to

A)Test
B)Report
C)Communicate
D)Provide Solutions
E)Be patient

And what am I doing do you think?

I thought you were freaking out with ALL CAPITOLS IN YOUR TOPIC panicing a little bit. Perhaps you got over-excited but from what I see everyone thought you were freaking out and from the sounds of your post you were too; as if it was some sort of official version.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2420

The issue with spies isn't that they're too powerful. The issue with spies is that there are too many of them.

Beta 1A (just before Thanksgiving) will be our first real attempt to start balancing the values.

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Too all who attacked my post - you behave like old babling auntie. Focus more on game testing not on me. Try to help Stardock in improving the game. And stop teaching me how I should write posts. It is not your buiseness. You are forgeting that I try to improve the game by making this post. If you DO NOT like it - DO NOT read it. From now on any "anuntie bubling" will be ignored by me. Like I said - focus on beta testing, ok?

Dear Frogboy from Stardock.
First - thanks for the expansion. I hope you find my ideas usefull. That is true that "The issue with spies is that there are too many of them". That is true. But Frogboy (you work on saturdays???

) What do you think of my ideas? Is it possible to implement them in game? How do opinion my suggestions?

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Frogboy,

Much like the tech trading option that was added, would it be possible to add an option to turn spies off?

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Will it be possible to turn off the spy feature? This is one element of the game I know I will really dislike, and it may prevent me from purchaseing Dark Avatar.

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Much like the tech trading option that was added, would it be possible to add an option to turn spies off?

It might be worth adding that option for each of the main new features (turn off unique environments etc) as some of the changes are altering gameplay mssively and there are bound to be players who don't want massive change X but love massive change Y.

Personally I'll be playing with everything, but can't hurt to let people tailor their game.

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Yes, I am also concerned not only with the spys, but about the unique enviroments also. I hate the idea of other races having planets all intermixed with mine because I can't inhabit them and would have to keep large fleets of ships in my own territory to protect from them rather then use those ships for invading. If each of these new features could be turned off, then I would most likely get Dark Avatar.

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Too all who attacked my post - you behave like old babling auntie.

Orion66, be honest with yourself. Look at your original post. You are the "babbling auntie."

Let's look at some examples:

A sign of impending babbling...

VERY IMPORTANT FOR PROGRAMMERS!

The only thing stupid and/or sick is the babbling idiot that wrote the following...

Spies - I think it is the WORST thing in the game. Spies are to powerfull! How come 1 spy can disable whole building??? The enemy of whole galaxy - The drengins have spies on almoust EVERY tile of their ALL plantes! IT IS SO STUPID!!! All of their bulidings are cripled! It is SICK!
Now whay I should say if I have 10 enemy agents on my 4 plantes. And I produce 1 agent for only 10 turns so how can I defend? Im spending max on my spies. Sick!

You continue your babbling by introducing your pathological nature...

Dear programers! You should do something about that. Here are my ideas:

Of course, everything in your ***624 word*** post is...

***IMPORTANT***

The next time you decide to write a rambling, angry and senile 624 word post, don't call your critics "babbling aunties."

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Will it be possible to turn off the spy feature? This is one element of the game I know I will really dislike, and it may prevent me from purchaseing Dark Avatar.

Don't worry. Stardock will improve spies till the releasy in February. It is first beta. Its a fact the game in this stadium is total mess but it will be improved soon.

Weeloffire ---> you finished auntie?

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I agree that an option to turn off the new features if wanted would be nice to have. I know a lot of people liked the tech trading off option. For me personally it made the game much easier so I leave it on. But I'm always for things that allow the player to further customize the game to their liking.

Ok so spies will continue to work as they do now there will just be a lot less of them. Does that mean there will be a limit to the number of active spies allowed on a planet? Or are they just going to be a lot harder to create? Guess we'll just wait to find out

... I really need to install this on my laptop so I can watch football and play the game on Thanksgiving

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I agree with wheel, orion, you're a total hypocrite. Kindly cut this "auntie" crap when the only one here babbling garbage is you.

Also: Your ideas aren't actually any good.

You also can forget the "kindness" of posting, as the most you've down is spouted stuff that frankly could be found in my toilet in the morning.

Thanks for the kindness.

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