Is it worth it? (Ship-building debate) » Forum Post by AlexOnFyre

If you're getting clobbered, then maybe that style is worth it. Generally if i'm losing, building military starbases at key choke points is what saves me. (and the AI charging into the death zones...)

In general you're better off building faster ships. I like defense a lot, even on small hulls. I find if you get to large hulls, and research the right defense/offense you can easily get nearly invincible ships. (matched to your enemy)

Out of ease of management, i generally just use 3 ships.
1) small hull mostly weapons, 2 engines, and a little defense
2) large hulls loaded with defense, around 4-5 engines, and ~2 weapons
3) huge, loaded up like a large but more so...(late in game only)

The smalls are basically planet defenders, and early on i build them just to keep the AI off my back. I end up with 1 at most planets, and i take the extras to gaurd star bases. Often upgrade them if they need to fight. The problem with smalls is the attrition they suffer. Large hulls with defense get very powerfull because exp gained and they're just hard to kill...

Protecting each planet is a waste. You need to fleet up your ships, and go out to meet the enemy at the edges. To protect everything is to protect nothing. On smaller maps it can be tricky, but you're much better off in the offensive position, than trying to react.

You'll generally find the AI will attack certain points, or funnel through them. That's where you need to defend.

It's really a question of resources. You could build super defenders at all your planets, but you'd have been better served just building offensive ships and killing them out-right.

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it really just depends on your playing style thats whats so great about this game, you dont have to do one thing

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Well, it is surely a stupid question, but why do you want to protect your planets?
The only reason I see is to prevent troop invasions. But you can also do that with a fleet of fast ships waiting in space.

I find myself building lots of ships in orbit to raise my military rating. Those ships are tiny hulls with only weapons. And I update them from time to keep the 1st ranking in military. That really helps me to avoid war being declared against me. But thoses ships wouldn't help me to stand against the AI if war happens when I didn't expect it.

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Isn't it better to have a fleet of fast, powerful ships protect a whole sector than have just one ship protect each planet in the sector?

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MarvinKosh

Join Date 08/2005

+87

Defensive ships serve a useful purpose and that is to grind down attackers. Ships get a bonus to their combat rating just from sitting in orbit, and this is multiplied by your Attack/Defence rating.

I tend to make defensives cheap to build/maintain (depending on the state of my economy) and don't go overboard with the weapons or defences, since these can be supplemented with a few starbase assists. The harder the enemy has to work to take your planets, the more you can focus on offensive action.

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Personally I get me about 6 scouting ships with 1 weapon, max engines, and largest hull. Then i go all offense with ships, make sure i have the speed advantage to outmanuver the the AI and take em out. Works for me.

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Anyone know if the "sentry" and "guard" options actually work and if they do, how do they work?

Everytime you attack or the enemy attack your planet, they only hit 1 ship at a time, not all ships in orbit. So i kinda see it more or less pointless to have "alot" of defense in the planet. What im doing is have my ships in starbases close to bases so they can reach if i see a troop ship (or enemy fighter ships incoming). I think best way is to meet the computer in space, rather then to let them get the first move (attacking your base). This way you can fleet up and get some good attack power (or defense). In most my fights ive gone all out on weapons, making massive beasts (to be honest i havent seen much use for defense sofar).

Tho im only playing on "normal" mode.

Another thing that kinda annoys me, is there any way to "bind" fleets to a starbase, making them *defend* the starbase when its under attack?. Far too often the computer can totally ignore anything in the starbase and just blow it out of the way while your fleet is just floating there like nothing happend.

A little trick you all probably know is to place a starbase near your planet (close to enemy) and "above" your planet. For some weird reason enemy always targets it first, i tried for fun placing it below the planet and then they ignored it. Kinda reminded me of the AI back in C&C long ago where the AI read the screen from up and down. Could be all imagination tho, seemed to work very fine last night in several fights.

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Interesting tip on the starbase. Thx.

I don't know why you can't fleet ships with a starbase.

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You can't add starbases to fleets because they're stationary.

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I found sort of on accident that you can move a fleet or ship on top of any starbase aside from a resource one. The ship(s) will defend the starbase in the same way it would a planet i.t is in orbit around. Hope that helps

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Ships get a bonus to their combat rating just from sitting in orbit, and this is multiplied by your Attack/Defence rating.

Really?

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the problem with having 1 fleet to defend an entire sector instead of having a bunch spread out to defend planets individually is that: if the enemy attack at 2 points, then you might attack 1, but the enemy will likely get the other. or say they attack at 3, what do you do then? i prefer ships stationed at all planets and bases. they may cost a bit, but if you got your economy running well, u should be makin well into the thousands on large galaxies so that's not a problem

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the problem with having 1 fleet to defend an entire sector instead of having a bunch spread out to defend planets individually is that: if the enemy attack at 2 points, then you might attack 1, but the enemy will likely get the other. or say they attack at 3, what do you do then? i prefer ships stationed at all planets and bases. they may cost a bit, but if you got your economy running well, u should be makin well into the thousands on large galaxies so that's not a problem

This where speed comes into play with enough speed the AI attacking a sector from three different points is not an issue.

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Offensive is the best defensive, isn't it?

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To a point but strike fleets can’t be every where at once and the AI is very good at out manuvering you even at the lower difficulties. It is also to be noted that orbital defence ships can be heavily armed and armoured when compared to strike ships of a similar tech level as they don’t have to use space for drives and life support. I have often blunted an aggressive AI's strike with what are mostly glorified defenders.

Of course it depends how you play but it can work

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but strike fleets can’t be every where at once and the AI is very good at out manuvering you even at the lower difficulties

Sure, but don't forget that the only need for defending a planet is to prevent invasion. But if you have defenders, you will experience attack from the AI to allow the invasion.

or say they attack at 3, what do you do then

What is attacked? Planets or ships? And don't forget that the AI doesn't really prepare invasion: troops transports are generally generated when there is a planet that can be invaded.

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Huldu said:

Everytime you attack or the enemy attack your planet, they only hit 1 ship at a time, not all ships in orbit. So i kinda see it more or less pointless to have "alot" of defense in the planet.

Try building an orbital fleet manager on your planet. Then all ships around your planet will defend in fleets, up to your logistics rating. I personally think it's dumb that ships will only defend a planet in fleets if you build this building, but that's the way the game works.

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It was for the defence of the starbase that I'd want to fleet it. You could do something like this in GC1 IIRC.

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When I have a dilemma about a certain tactic I often think if I was on the opposite end of this would I like it.

Applying this logic I will never pre-emptively have defence only ships. (Maybe I might rush build one to protect an outlying colony but never have them just sitting there eating up resources).

The AI does it all the time and it shows how poor this tactic is. They often have 3 times the military strength but they are spread across 20 planets doing effectively nothing but await death.

If there are any I can’t simply blow up (because without planetary defences you don’t even get to use your logistics) I can safely walk around them to another target.

Seriously if you want to win this game then sitting on planets is not the way to do it.

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True. Defence is mearly a delaying tactic, and that's what real defense is used for. To stop the enemy from winning (I.E. Killing you) So that you have time to build up a force and counterattack.

Also, in an earlier argument, once the enemies upgrade their engines, your mobile fleets speed becomes much less effective, and if they customize their ships to give the transports more speed then the defence fleets are gonna be in trouble, and you with them. The starbase movement buffs, once you get them, will help to a point but they're not gonna be enough if the enemy attack in large enough numbers. Hmm, Do Military Starbase bonus's affect ships defending worlds if they're in their radius?

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Do Military Starbase bonus's affect ships defending worlds if they're in their radius?

I think so.

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True. Defence is mearly a delaying tactic, and that's what real defense is used for. To stop the enemy from winning (I.E. Killing you) So that you have time to build up a force and counterattack.

Also, in an earlier argument, once the enemies upgrade their engines, your mobile fleets speed becomes much less effective

Well I upgrade my ships too. And this means that my "defence" ships are pretty much the same design as my "attack" ships (give or take a life-support module - but they're so small I usually just put one anyway) and so can be used to counter-attack or support or reinforce an attack.

As my ships are usually rather faster than the AI's, there isn't much much problem. I usually find that the normal traffic of contructors, freighters, left-over survey ships (I usually build 2 or 3) suffice to make sure I am rarely surprised.

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You can't add starbases to fleets because they're stationary.

hmmm... so are planets, really.

I see no harm or undue advantage to allowing ships to be placed 'in orbit' around a starbase in much the same way as a planet. Any ships in orbit around a Starbase, can't move until they are 'launched'. Sort of a hybrid between fleet and planet management.

Of course, the problem becomes how to represent this as a game mechanic, and if the current interface supports that kind of interaction. Also need to decide on a good logistics value for them, too high and it lessens the effective fleet force, too small and the support modules make your SB invicible. Perhaps 10-12 LP would suffice?

The thing is that Starbases are a significant investment for a government. The costs can be exorbitant in the late game considering constructor costs and constructions fees alone can (and do) run into the trillions of credits. Protecting that investment deserves better than just keeping a fleet in the area IMO.

Cheers,
Reaver

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well, i guess it all comes down to balance. you can use your defence ships for offense or support, but that requires leaving the planet less defended. and when all your ships are basicly the same then they are much easier to counter for the AI, making your entire fleet countered as opposed to one part. but it also means easier production. sigh, so hard. mobile fleets do have starbases in their favor, the movement buffs and reduction to the enemy are much more useful to mobile fleets.

hmm. i think logistics points should depend on the weaponry systems available on the starbase, if you have a starbase takin up 10-12 but not having much defence, well, you see my point i think, it's a waist of space. whereas stations with more defence systems would requrie more supplies and parts to run. perhaps increases in the points depending on what they have? that should balance things out.

Game mechanics shouldn't be that hard to figure out. could work just like planets, maybe in the expansion. bases customizable like planets. they just don't have the production things on the top. placeable upgrades, and stuff. terraforming not availible. This gives me an idea that maybe, in the expansion. for a really really large amount of credits, like a hundred trillion, or a zillion, buildable like the old terror stars, you could create planetlike spacestations, with biodomes for farms, and much other customizeable stuff opening up a wide variety of new tactics. but this would have to be VERY expensive, and a high tech thing, otherwize it will be created alot and overused. hmm, i might just be TO LAZY to follow up on this line of thought, or it might be shot down, but if not i might post about this later. other then that, bye

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In most situations, a fast mobile response force is far preferable to trying to defend multiple planets. 90% of the time, it is far easier to retake the planet immediately than trying to defend it. The exception is when the AI uses destructive ground attacks such as mass drivers. Slow ships are only modestly cheaper than fast ships. What really costs a lot are the weapon and defense modules.

If a player has to defend three planets, they need triple the force of the attacking fleet. It is far easier to meet them in space before they get to your planet with one superior fleet and then take the battle to them. Another good alternative is to wait until the planet is lost then take it back.

That said, there are some uses for defensive ships and fleets. If the attacker has many fast mobile ships, it may be useful to garrison certain key planets. Again, to try and defend them all against large attack fleets is going to take a ton of resources. If a player has enough production to build that many ships, they are usually much better off taking the battle to the enemy and taking away their ability to produce any more ships.

A small hard hitting force can defeat an enemy several times their number if the enemy is dispersed instead of concentrated. Force concentration is a keystone of military tactics.

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