Zerogman

Join Date 03/2006

Another miniaturization bug

How?

Ok, found another miniaturization related bug.

When Advanced Miniaturization is completed, every engine gains +1 to its size as well, thus negating the effect for some ships I use.

After another Miniaturization tech is completed, weapons are given a +1 to size as well (engines may gain another +1 sometime, but not sure), at least I think I've seen this. I can't remember after which tech advance this happened at.

I definately remember the engine size going up 1 since an Impulse Drive Mk3 was a size 7 for a transport hull, after Advanced Miniaturization, it went to a size 8, thus making some of my transport hull based designs overmaxed. Go figure...

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

It is not a bug. Most components have a sizemod, which adds a fixed percentage of the hull's full size to their own size. The argument may be made that the sizemod should be based on the base size and not take the miniturization-enhanced size into account, but that's a feature discussion, not a bug discussion.

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I would think it would be a bug if you had a ship that was legal, you gain some miniturization, and then you are over your max.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

That's just getting screwed by the decimal rounding

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getting screwed by decimal rounding is a bug...

its nothing new reallly... i made a thread about it already. I actually find it really REALLY annoying that it does that... it should be based on the base size and just add alittle bit less space. Even if it doesn't make the ship illigal half the time miniturazation doesnt allow you to add any more items because all your existing items got bigger and took up all that extra space.

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I agree to some extent. Miniaturization is working weird at times, maybe it should be cleaned up a bit.

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Heh, how about keep EVERYTHING the same size it starts as. No decimal rounding to mess it up then. Also, all components should be the same size for every hull except for engines obviously since larger ships would need larger engines.

I can understand if defenses would be larger for larger hulls, but weapons should be same size for all hulls. Think about it, wouldn't a Laser V that is twice as large size wise also do twice as much damage? Ehh... just opinion though.

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Bump + add...

No kidding, I just researched Ultimate Mini Tech and actually lost a size overall!

My large cruiser went up to 110 but with everything I had on it... it now is rated at 111, or 1 over!
Comon dev, I have said this before in other posts awhile back. Someone needs to take a serious whack at mini techs. To spend 10 weeks researching ultimate and lose a spot overall is not satisfactory its frustrating.

Overall all 1.2 beta 11 is doing fine though here on the lap top, extremely stable.

W/R
Suralle Straykat
Kat Lord @ Large

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yeah i have to agree, it may not be a bug but it would be nice if it were tweaked - it is a little counter-intuitive...

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Well, I did some experimenting.
I had a ship that, with all the miniaturization techs (but no shrinker) and a 400% ability in my raceconfig file, came to 270/270. (I am also a Technologist, which adds 20%)
A ratio of 1.

Removing Ultimate and Supreme yielded 248/249 - so a bit better.
A ratio of .995.

Going below the 400% ability things got progressively worse - 160% was a ratio of 1.45 (176/121)
Below 160% the ship did not even show up in the shipyard.

However, going above 400% got progressively better.
500% - .945
600% - .908
700% - .89
800% - .867
900% - .839 (398/474)

Adding back in the Ultimate and Supreme with 900% gave a ratio of .82 by the way, so it is not something directly related to those two techs. But there is a 'dead zone', so to speak, between ~100% to ~400% where the SizeMod factor works against you.

So unless you are going to mod in at least a 400% ability bonus, the Supreme and Ultimate techs should not be researched.

One good thing about that is you will get the most bang for the buck by not wasting the time doing the research, while the AI does not realize it and might waste both the time and hull space by getting those techs.

Maybe I'll be a real jerk my next game by giving Supreme and Ultimate to all my enemies, hehe.

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This took longer than I thought. I made a note of every hull size's capacity, the size of a Laser MK V and a Hyperwarp III engine for every hull at every level of miniaturization, with and without the shrinker. I didn't look at anything else because this took a lot more time than I thought it would.

The strangest thing that I noticed is that Small and Tiny hulls actually get LESS capacity moving from "basic" mini tech to "enhanced", plus an increase in some components. Considering that when you are actually using "enhanced" miniaturization you are probably using small and tiny hulls exclusively, that kinda sucks.

This is the Terrans with their default miniaturization ability and no anomaly bonuses. I probably should have used Impulse III instead of Hyperwarp III, but HW was at the top of the list and I didn't feel like resorting every time I switched hulls.

C = Capacity
E = Hyperwarp MK III
W = Laser MK V

TINY HULL

Pre mini tech
C - 16
E - 5
W - 4

Basic mini
C - 17
E - 5
W - 4

Enhanced mini
C - 16
E - 6
W - 4

Advanced mini
C - 22
E - 6
W - 5

Expert mini (No Shrinker)
C - 24
E - 6
W - 5

Expert mini (With Shrinker)
C - 27
E - 6
W - 5

Ultimate mini (No Shrinker)
C - 28
E - 6
W - 5

Ultimate mini (With Shrinker)

C - 30
E - 6
W - 5

Supreme mini (No Shrinker)
C- 32
E - 6
W - 5

Supreme mini (With Shrinker)
C - 34
E - 6
W - 5

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SMALL HULL

Pre mini tech
C - 26
E - 6
W - 5

Basic mini
C - 28
E - 6
W - 5

Enhanced mini
C - 26
E - 6
W - 5

Advanced mini
C - 36
E - 6
W - 5

Expert mini (No Shrinker)
C - 40
E - 7
W - 6

Expert mini (With Shrinker)
C - 44
E - 7
W - 6

Ultimate mini (No Shrinker)
C - 45
E - 7
W - 6

Ultimate mini (With Shrinker)
C - 49
E - 7
W - 6

Supreme mini (No Shrinker)
C - 52
E - 7
W - 6

Supreme mini (With Shrinker)
C - 55
E - 7
W - 6

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MEDIUM HULL

Pre mini
C - 38
E - 6
L - 5

Basic mini
C - 41
E - 7
W - 6

Enhanced mini
C - 47
E - 7
W - 6

Advanced mini
C - 52
E - 7
W - 6

Expert mini (no Shrinker)
C - 58
E - 7
W - 6

Expert mini (With Shrinker)
C - 64
E - 8
W - 7

Ultimate mini (no Shrinker)
C - 66
E - 8
W - 7

Ultimate mini (With Shrinker)
C - 72
E - 8
W - 7

Supreme mini (no Shrinker)
C - 76
E - 8
W - 7

Supreme mini (With Shrinker)
C - 81
E - 9
W - 8

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

LARGE HULL

Pre Basic mini
C - 55
E - 7
W - 6

Basic mini
C - 60
E - 8
W - 7

Enhanced mini
C - 68
E - 8
W - 7

Advanced mini
C - 77
E - 8
W - 7

Expert mini (No Shrinker)
C - 85
E - 9
W - 8

Expert mini (With Shrinker)
C - 93
E - 9
W - 8

Ultimate mini (No Shrinker)
C - 96
E - 9
W - 8

Ultimate mini (With Shrinker)
C - 104
E - 10
W - 9

Supreme mini (No Shrinker)
C - 118
E - 10
W - 9

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

LARGE HULL

Pre Basic mini

C - 80
E - 9
W - 8

Basic mini
C - 88
E - 9
W - 8

Enhanced mini
C - 100
E - 10
W - 9

Advanced mini
C - 112
E - 10
W - 9

Expert mini (No Shrinker)
C - 124
E - 11
W - 10

Expert mini (With Shrinker)
C - 136
E - 11
W - 10

Ultimate mini (No Shrinker)
C - 140
E - 12
W - 11

Ultimate mini (With Shrinker)
C - 152
E - 12
W - 11

Supreme mini (No Shrinker)
C - 160
E - 13
W - 12

Supreme mini (With Shrinker)
C - 172
E - 13
W - 12

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Heh, and I thought miniaturization was supposed to make components smaller... You know... Smaller size, but no loss of power/ability

Heh, fun to see what a 400% miniaturization tech would do, but not really useful in this argument since it would be virtually impossible to get that much legally. Also, I thought Technologist added +20% to research and +1 to sensors, or does the example mod add a +20% miniaturization bonus for Technologist? I wouldn't know since I haven't played with the mod yet.

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No, you're right about the 20% research, not min.
Sorry, I was up all night, couldn't get to sleep, and must have just had a brain hickup.

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