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Number Muncher
Number Muncher
Join Date 03/2006
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The numbers are making my brain hurt!

March 19, 2006 7:38:20 AM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I keep trying to make sense of this game, but the numbers are all messed up.
* A number of the racial abilities / bonuses do not work as advertised.
* The racial abilities are not very balanced.
* It is hard to tell how various bonuses are being applied.
* All sorts of weird undocumented constraints.
* The manual isn't complete.
* Shall I even talk about the in game economy, trading, or combat?

With a bit of fine tuning and greater transparency this game could become a lot more interesting.
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Number Muncher
Spearthrower
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #1 March 19, 2006 8:12:50 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Spearthrower's Guide to Relaxed and Enjoyable Play

"I keep trying to make sense of this game, but the numbers are all messed up."

Forget numbers and play... it aint a calculator!

"* A number of the racial abilities / bonuses do not work as advertised."

Even if they dont work as it says, they do still give you something along those lines.

"* The racial abilities are not very balanced."

*shrugs* play with the ones you like then

"* It is hard to tell how various bonuses are being applied."

There are two approaches to playing any game. Try to delve under the hood to min max everything.... or just get in and drive the damn thing!

"* All sorts of weird undocumented constraints."

Sounds like a Drengin fetish party to me

"* The manual isn't complete."

Manuals will never be complete with a game that patches content. I also find a 200 page booklet really offputting. Just work it out as you go along.

"* Shall I even talk about the in game economy, trading, or combat?"

No, just play it and enjoy it.

Follow these simple steps to maximise your enjoyment of the game, or worry about every little thing you can't work out and ruin the experience for yourself. It's a game, not a math puzzle!!
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Number Muncher
Entity Alpha 1
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #2 March 19, 2006 9:24:54 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
And if you like math puzzles, you can try to puzzle out the games math.
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Number Muncher
marioflag
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #3 March 19, 2006 9:50:20 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Forget numbers and play... it aint a calculator!

"* A number of the racial abilities / bonuses do not work as advertised."

Even if they dont work as it says, they do still give you something along those lines.

"* The racial abilities are not very balanced."

*shrugs* play with the ones you like then

"* It is hard to tell how various bonuses are being applied."

There are two approaches to playing any game. Try to delve under the hood to min max everything.... or just get in and drive the damn thing!


Spearthrower don't you think that doing too much compromises with yourself means that something is wrong? .
I share the headache of the poster about all bonuses not applied or strange formulas or worst than before abilities that are not explained. The poster has centered the problem very good game but lack of transparency make this game more and more annoying as the time passes.
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Number Muncher
Featauril
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #4 March 19, 2006 10:09:42 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
It's as Brad said. "We have the 'realism' people VS the 'we want to know what everything does' people VS the people who don't want the game to turn into a spreadsheet'. "
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Number Muncher
TheRealWarpstorm
Join Date 03/2003
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Reply #5 March 19, 2006 10:48:42 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I think that GC3 should hide every number that is remotely possible to hide (obviously your bank account can't be) from the player.
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Number Muncher
ShunterAlhena
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #6 March 19, 2006 11:58:07 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Yeah, the maths give quite a headache... you see, I like fiddling around and maximizing everything. Now, as long as the formulae are merely complicated, this is OK... but these formulae are downright ridiculous sometimes! Why should turning up factory production necessarily hinder Labs Research??? I have more than enough to finance them both, and don't tell me 10 billion people can't operate five factories and five labs simultaenously...
I don't mind if there are a few complications here and there, but for heaven's sake separate the research and manufacturing sliders...
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Number Muncher
Kaphtor
Join Date 04/2003
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Reply #7 March 19, 2006 12:09:04 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
It's not a question of needing numbers, or wanting to maximize everything, how about if the results just MAKE SENSE? Like why does it cost me MORE to upgrade a research center to a research acadamy than it does to build a NEW research academy in an empty space? Why can I stop ship production to save money but if I stop social production the money goes totally to waste? Why can't I cut spending to one or two worlds to avoid a budget shortfall instead of cutting across the board so my newest colonies have no chance to develop?

This game is built on an inadequate economic model. Hiding numbers can't hide the fact that taking reasonable actions creates counter-intuitive and unreasonable results.
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Number Muncher
TrekE
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #8 March 19, 2006 12:16:43 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Ah, this must be why I love the Galciv Series so much; I'm a Logic major! lol. I love both the number/logic/strategic part of the game, and the other fun stuff too!

Long live GalCIV!!
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Number Muncher
Kenes
Join Date 01/2003
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Reply #9 March 19, 2006 12:18:13 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
hmmm:
"This game is built on an inadequate economic model. Hiding numbers can't hide the fact that taking reasonable actions creates counter-intuitive and unreasonable results."

Kinda sounds like the economic state America is in?
Maybe we should get Greenspan in here and see what he can do.
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Number Muncher
heyrespwn
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #10 March 19, 2006 12:31:27 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
i think there are just 2 possibilities:

a) the formulas are just bugged: i didnt tested yet whether my ability REALLY adds that percent to my actions it promises. if there is +20% of combat and i got -10% there would be a bug. such things needs to be fixed asap. i can understand why people would complain. but nothing to whine about, since stardock doesnt let their customers alone.

the formulars doesnt work the way some individual wants them to work. lets take the "factory, labs, 50 billion" example. i thought its obvious that 1 in-game factory doesnt mean literally ONE small factory somewhere in the desert. its just a simplification. like the universe. or do you think that the whole universe is on one 2 dimensional layer in reality? its easier to understand and gameplay is better when its this way. noone wants to build 10000+ factories on a every planet by hand. you build a factory-tile and have build a "industry". to sum it up: formulas are the way they are. the game is about get along with them and be successful. ive encountered no nasa-scientist complaining about natures laws because he thinks it would be better they were different, yet. lol.
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Number Muncher
marioflag
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #11 March 19, 2006 3:31:24 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Personally i think that the value of a good documentation and of the information part of the game was totally underestimated, but not all formulas are bugged. i can give also some examples why the game in my opinion was a bit rushed
-manual that is really pissing
-tech description is sometimes ridiculous there are some tech description like "woot" "wroom" or similar that doesn't give immersivity to the game
-research 20% but gives you 10% is not bugged but if you don't go on forums u didn't notice how research system worked.there is no excuse to leave it as it is
-there is a small improvement description a better one would give a lot more immersivity
-smaller cosmetic problem but that in my opinion cut immersivity to the game.A lot of minor races share the same portraits.I was one of the people that when heard terrorist or fundamentalist civ event thought that this game would rock with all these features.Well having fundamentalists look similar to calor took away all this interest in this event.
Well concluding the game is in my opinion really solid in terms of gameplay and enjoyment but the lack of care for particulars and infos make it a good game not a nearly perfect one.the fact that i'm now beginning to play again civ4 is really significant for me
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Number Muncher
Spearthrower
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #12 March 19, 2006 8:21:47 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Spearthrower don't you think that doing too much compromises with yourself means that something is wrong? .


I dont know Marioflag - you tell me! If I dont feel the need to know this stuff, yet manage to simultaneously play and win and enjoy the game while people trying to figure out what's under the hood start getting frustrated with it because they dont understand...... who is wrong? Ignorance is bliss? Or perhaps diverting your analytical juices to problems that have real meanings rather than towards understanding a game... is bliss!

I've seen this kind of Need To Know attitude destroy a lot of people's enjoyment of games and I really dont understand where people come from on it. It's a game - not work!

Yeah, ok, I know some people get kicks from numbers (you sickos! ) but sometimes you've just got to sit back and play, not look at it as if its an unbeatable puzzle, a dead rat to be cut apart and understood with your mental analytical knife. To me - the rat running round and doing rat type things provides a far greater understanding of rat-ness than looking at its internal organs.

A mathematical understanding of something does not equate to an appreciation of it. There are classic polarities in the way people regard things..... what I was trying to jokingly push people towards here is a more romantic appreciation rather than cold, hard factual appreciation.

Hey dont worry.... I have a lot of Math-oriented friends and I perfectly understand that all I just said was practically in another language to those posters above!
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Number Muncher
marioflag
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #13 March 19, 2006 8:45:40 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Spearthrower 2 different point of views and of game enjoyment .
I must say that i'm not the man which needs to do every calculation to play, what i really need is to have at least exact info to plan very well.Planning is what really make me crazy of TBS.
I must admit that what i'm really anal is to have detailed info about improvements, cosmetics like minor races portraits or new race hulls.This is what would make this game really big for a grognard player like me
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Number Muncher
TheRealWarpstorm
Join Date 03/2003
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Reply #14 March 19, 2006 9:00:09 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Well, Spearthrower, there is at least one in this thread who agrees with you.
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Number Muncher
Empyrean
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #15 March 20, 2006 5:52:18 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
-tech description is sometimes ridiculous there are some tech description like "woot" "wroom" or similar that doesn't give immersivity to the game

Reading the tech descriptions is a hoot. The flavor text is fantastic. The head researching describing one of the mass driver techs by saying "w00t" made me smile. Or when I had the moral dilemma where my citizens were collecting animals in "capture spheres" and training them for arena deathmatches? Oh... my people are playing Pokemon and the event picture is a two headed squirrel. I haven't seen humor this good since Star Control 2.

I guess some people would rather have some techno-babble for the immersion factor, but I really enjoy the humorous flavor text.

As for the internal workings of the game, I'd really like to know more about how they work also. The people who don't care and just want to play can still do that, and since their style of play isn't affected by this I can hardly see how their opinion matters. Why not let the people who want to play a spreadsheet have it? An understanding of how the system works is very important to some people, and it doesn't make much sense to have such an intricate system if nobody really knows what's going on behind the scenes.
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Number Muncher
Evil Muppet
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #16 March 20, 2006 8:26:09 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I like the humour too, but I'd also prefer it if I could disable those screens. After a while its not funny anymore. Sometimes I just want a quick description of what's happened, and some details of what I can do with my new tech.
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Number Muncher
Empyrean
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #17 March 21, 2006 3:05:16 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
An option for brevity is always a good thing.
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