Racism will always exist, it will just evolve to find new divisions and differances that we will precieve as something to bias or judge by.

Of course their are still white racists and society hase become very concious about it and pro active in trying to fight against it. But my point is that it is the non white racism that seems to go mostly unchallenged and regardless of history that is still called racism.



Been there, done that.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps, but we still have a long way to go...

Wether it be evolution or something else, humans certainly aren't reaching their full potential fighting eachother.

Marcus, you're a troublemaker!!  

Cultures have been overwhelming other cultures since we started arguing about who had the nicest cave. We live in an ever-changing world, not a static museum-like environment. Dominant cultures overtake weaker ones. The Abos got bumped out of Australia, the Apaches got bumped out of the Great Plains, the Romans got bumped out of everything by the Goths. It's part of the human way. Not good or bad, it just is. Someone in your history swindled someone out of their cow or stole someone's daughter. The same base motivation is at the bottom of the Enron scandal, too, probably.







I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I hope not. We were minding our own business 9/11/2001, remember.



I try hard to have well thought out arguments, and I'm not a end-of-the-world believer, but...

Didn't Nostradamus predict that the Anti-Christ would arise in the East as the beginning to the great final war? There's something to think about while you are trying to sleep tonight...



Be careful when you start throwing the racism charge around. Any group of people basing any decision about another group of people solely on racial and ethnic background is racist. It's a two-edged sword that cuts both ways.

You have a point, and i will admit that i tend to react to racism with racism. In other words, i am not racist until somone else looks at me as a 'white guy' or a 'western hethen'. When somone looks at me like that, guess what, i look right back! Perhaps not the most constructive attitude around but thats the way i feel.

As you Americans put it, 'don't step on me'.

you bet your tiny mind your a racist.
what you feel IS racism, whats it like?, makes you feel powerful I bet.

Anyone want to buy petrol soaked crosses?
we got a sale on white sheets,

I'm not willing to accept this, and I think that overcoming it is our great hope. If we can learn to see each other as individuals it becomes harder to make decisions that result in other's deaths. I truly believe that we are seeing some of this today. The information we get on a daily basis about Iraq is making it hard for the American public to accept staying there, and rightly so. We can see that our actions are causing harm, and we wish to end that. I think that is an enlightened view, and morally correct. The problem with that is that can be viewed as weakness. Weakness can open the door to another 9/11 style terror attack. So, possibly, by trying to do the right thing we invite our own destruction.



Here is a thought that will spark some debate...

What if this is a form of social Darwinism, a way that we evolve? Just as the strongest animals reproduce more, thus strengthening the species, this could be a way that we test the relative strength of our cultures. Not conciously, but in a way that we are driven to.

Think about this - the religious fanatacism we see as the Muslim sects tear each other apart are very similar to Europe in the 16th & 17th centuries. Europeans got over that (read: evolved) in the 18th century. Not perfectly, but it got better. It is still getting better. So, Iraq is a couple of centuries behind us.

This does not mean good or bad. It is just a measure of creation of wealth, of the ability of each individual to achieve his/her potential, and other things. But by any measurable standard that I can think of (I could be wrong - it's late and I'm getting tired) we are a superior culture. The fact that individual citizens in the Islamic world are attracted to our way of life could be a sign of this. Left unchecked they would Westernize. Only their governments can hold them back.

Does this mean we are better or "good", in a moral sense? No, I'm not saying that. Nor was Cro-Magnon man "better" Neanderthal man. But, eventually, one evolved more than the other and won the Darwinian contest. The same thing could be true, here.

I expect that you will all have differing opinions, Marcus in particular, but maybe Stormbringer will have my back. Comments?

Here we go, resorting to insults again. How old are you anyway? 12?

sorry but your way off the mark on this one.

No, I think what he feels is fear. A religious/ethnic group, Islamic fundamentalists, have said that all American, indeed, all non-believers, should be destroyed. If that's not racist, I don't know what is.

I think Mystik's response is appropriate, and one of the root issues of this problem. How can we be thoughtful and act in an enlightened way when we are being threatened?



I personally try very hard not to subscribe to the "nuke Iraq now" idea, but it is hard not to fight fire with fire. If Mystik is a racist, then what is Osama Bin Laden? Or the Iranian president with the name I can't spell? Or, really, the Israeli government?

Anytime we point a finger at another group, close our eyes, and yell "We are good and you are bad!", that could be racist. It is very small-minded to define an "us" by defining a "them". We should be trying to find a "we". You too, Marcus. Play nice.

Please don't hide, I apologise for the "tiny mind£ comment.it was such an easy attack it was not worthy of you or me.

What i should say is anyone who dignifies racism , however imaginatively or intellectually the argument is deserves the right to try and uphold that argument on rational debate



PleaseI'm all ears, dignify this statement

Marcus forced Kryo to lock another thread recently from attacking Danilost and calling him racist too. Marcus is one of those people that think calling somone a racist will win any argument.

If it is this easy to resort to finger-pointing and name-calling, is it any wonder there are problems in Iraq?

No please don't, I will retire from this thread and never say a word
Please mysticmind, dont use the thought police, i cant sope with facism

I did say sorry mystic bully mind.

You don't need to retire. Just respect other's views.

Intelligent, rational discussion can help make the world a better place. Marcus, if you think any of our views are racist, then tell us why. I'm a white man - I've had people assume I'm racist just because of who I am. I think that people who look at me and pre-judge me because of my appearance are racist.

And if you are so quick to judge Mystik, well, Marcus, you might be racist too. I said it's a two edged sword...

Sorry if i gave the impression of dignifying racism, the whole point to my original argument is that society tends to focus on combating 'white' racism (which is a good thing) but forgets about non white racism (which is a bad thing).

My second point merely illustrated how i react to racism against me and i clearly stated that my reaction is not a very constructive thing.

look, i.m sorry again, i just don't admire mystics bully tactics.
That isn't debate thats intimidation,
ok mine was too but at least I'm ashamed

what about you Mystic, no shame , no apology?

Sorry marcus, Actually i posted before seeing your haughty apology

hehehe again i posted before seeing this post! We all live and learn.

and that was the racist one if I'm not mistaken/

please back off some more cause i haven't seen an argument worth listening to.

Again, four of us speaking a common language trying really hard not to misunderstand each other. How hard must it be to talk to the rest of the world?

Huh, ya think? Read your own posts if you want to read arguments not worth listening to.

I will make it easy for you to understand, my comment on the way i react to racism towards me was not actually a point of an argument that i am trying to win or loose, it was just a fact about the way i react. If i was to tell you anything else then it would be a lie.

Maybe your right oz.
Maybe i take things to heart.
look, I'll bow out for a few hours, get a clear head.

Not impressed with you mystic. not what you argued , IMHO the slimey tactics of the threats. please don't bring other threads into this, it would be a shame if yo managed to shut down such a vibrant thread

mysticmind, Imho you are not worthy. if you think this an insult, then i suggest you read all your posts again.

Its your insult, and your opinion reflected back at you, so if you didn't like it then don't give it out, simple.

Sorry to overlook your post, you are right of course. I do not know if Marcus is a racist, i do not think he understands how serious a thing it is to call somone racist, that is what gave me the impression he might be quite young?