Thanks! Speaking of films, i have to say how absolutely awestruck i was when i first watched the film called Amistad. I believe it is directed by Steven spielberg and has some big name stars. Anyway as it happens, one day i walk in the video store and saw it there on the shelf so i hired it thinking it probably would be crap since i hadn't heard about it and there was only one copy (you know how single copy videos are usually crap).

After watching it i had to go and sit in silence for about an hour and contemplate my existance, thats how much of an impact that film had on me!

I will find out the name tomorrow, and I will post it.

For a moment i was wondering who's rubble he was standing on? Was he standing on the rubble of 9.11 in America or was he standing on the rubble of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Rubble here, rubble there, rubble almost anywhare!

Thanks, Pitsnipe. I was just about to bring that up. But,



The Civil War didn't start about slavery, but it ended that way. We started our action in Iraq about Saddam. It has turned into something else, and we can decide how it will end. And when.



Careful, Wade. I'm a Savage fan myself, but to hold any single person up as a voice of reason is dangerous. Savage is playing to his audience. He's not really an impartial voice. Broaden your awareness. Blind faith in a leader is exactly what the Iraqis are doing. Yes, we're following Bush, but at least we're arguing about it.



The single thing that saves this country is the seperation of church and state. We are all allowed to worship as we like, as long as we respect each other. If only we could teach that to the rest of the world...



If we were using what we learned in Vietnam wouldn't we already be gone? Good point earlier - don't these guys (Bush et. al.) remember what happened when they were young? If not, what's the point?



That is our best hope - that we can still influence our government through debate. I believe we can. Take away the smoke and fury, and the Democrat's debate about the spending bill is a reflection of the popular will. Don't get cynical yet. The system works.

You know, there is some truth here. I would rather have a President who does what he thinks right even if I think it is wrong (Bush) than a President who does what he thinks the public wants even if he thinks it is wrong (Hillary? EEEEEEEEKKKK!)

You have to admire George W's conviction. I just wish he had some smarts to back it up with.

I'm speaking as a frustrated Republican, of course.

No, I would rather have a president who is insane, and who does what I think is right. I would rather have a mentally deficient, incompetent bastard, who yet gives in to those who are giving him advice. I don't care AT ALL about a president's convictions, so long as he makes choices that are "smart." This president has "convictions", and makes the worst possible choices for our country. Do you not care about what happens to people who are put in the line of fire? For Christ's sake!!!! Get a perspective!!! I'm guessing you have no family who are soldiers. I do have soldiers as family, and I could see myself being one, so these totally stupid decisions are life and death!!!

I do truely worry for this country. The executive branch is growing weaker, it has since the time of Nixon. Bush was probably one of the biggest blunderers internationally, but he is pushing for Congress to once again issue impeachment, which might in time make it a regular order of bussiness.

And Mac, no one really cares, I dont even think you do. You talk about it on the forums and maybe to your friends, but do you actually do something. Were you at the protest on the aniversery of the war, are you giving donations to places around the world that are in need? Do you even know of places like Somalia and Darfur?

Hindsight is always 20/20

I don't know who said that but it certainly applies in this case. Now 4 years on, there are quite a few people saying what a horrible mistake it was to go into Iraq. Maybe my memory is just bad, or it didn't get a whole lot of coverage, but i don't remember this many people being against going in in 2003. It seemed like a good idea at the time to most people (myself excluded). Now, all we seem to hear is how bad an idea it was. Well, it probably was a bad idea but let's hear some real discussion on how we extricate ourselves. I don't know how we get out, but I wish someone could figure something out. Iraq is looking more and more like that old Tom Hanks movie "the Money Pit" . just my feelings on the whole thing.

You're right. I don't. I often wonder if any of us who haven't served or have loved ones serving know what we're talking about.

But I have a 16yr old son that could be serving in two years, and I employ 45+ high school students. When I see the soldiers running out of HUM-Vs on the news I try to remember that these could be the kids I have working here that are fighting and dying, kids that have their whole lives ahead of them, and it hurts. Sorry to get you upset, Mac. I don't mean to downplay their sacrifices in any way.

My point is that, really, what we do is elect a king, one individual that speaks for us as a country. It appears that this time our king is an idiot. But he believes deeply that what he is doing is correct. I value the fact that he has those beliefs, even if I think they are wrong. I think we are better represented by a man like that than by someone who changes his mind daily based on which way the political wind is blowing at the moment. At least he has a clear picture of what he wants to do, even if it may be impossible. In Vietnam no one knew what we doing there, and soldiers were dying anyway.

Right now, I think that we are sacrificing our young people for a noble goal that may be unrealistic. That is better than sacrificing them for nothing. Better yet would be not sacrificing them at all.



That is a growing problem. If Congress runs the country then what is to stop them from spending the budget by passing out free goods and services to ensure re-election? We need a president who is secure in what he thinks, and the election process makes those people hard to find.

Hey Oz, go add something to the "happy as hell" thread. Surely there's something for you to be happy about. Come on guys, don't let her die!!!

Evil, is that one that you posted? I'd love to see your list of what you're happy about



Edit: Holy Cow, Dude!! I was just joking, but then I see you actually posted one! Well, I guess I'd better read it, then.

It's hard to imagine Stormbringer happy. This I must see...

(off to other post)

actually, during the month preceeding the war there was the largest grass-roots protest in recorded history. it tooks place in the streets of almost every major city in North America and Europe, as well as many in East Asia and the Middle East. but you're right, it got next to no coverage in the U.S.



this reminds me of a quote from Herbert Marcuse, a Marxian theorist during the 60s.
"Under the rule of a repressive whole, liberty can be made into a powerful instrument of domination. The range of choice open to the individual is not the decisive factor in determining the degree of human freedom, but what can be chosen and what is chosen by the individual... Free election of masters does not abolish the masters or the slaves. Free choice among a wide variety of goods and services does not signify freedom if these goods and services sustain social controls over a life of toil and fear..."



i think there needs to be a balance. too many of our leaders ignore their personal ethics in favor of career advancement. but at the same time, a leader must be sensitive to his/her people's goals and sensibilities. over-zealous leadership is one of the problems countries like Iraq face.

Oooh, that's really good. Let me ponder and I'll be back.

Was invading Iraq a mistake? The second time no! the second invasion was inherintly connected to the first invasion. Since Saddam agreed to allow weapons inspectors in which in turn made America and everyone else feel safe to leave him in power. Since Saddam decided to interefere with the inspectors then that is exactly the same as rejecting the initial treaty agreement. So if Saddam had rejected the initial treaty agreement the allies would have completed the first invasion.

This second invasion is nothing more than what would have happened anyway had Saddam rejected the initial treaty first up instead of rejecting it later on down the road as he did.

Now as far as the first invasion is concearned, that is the mistake! Personally i feel that since Kuwait told America to F-off when they had a military base there, America should have in turn laughed in Kuwaits face when Saddam invaded. If there is a more classic example of poetic justice out there than that, well i havn't heard it!

Alright, here goes...



Liberty cannot be domination. I can choose to be dominated, or not. I can choose to work for a tyrannical boss, or not. It becomes domination when the choices are made for me, without me.

Yes, our society does not allow infinate choice. But I feel that I have enough choices that I am not dominated.



Poor logic. What can be and what is chosen defines the range of choice. What I see this saying is "the range of choice is not decisive, but the range of choice is", which is meaningless.



True. But this argument presupposes that there are only two classes, masters and slaves. We are citizens, and as such are responsible for the choices we make. Salves have no choice. By accepting this argument, and recognizing that we are not masters, we accept that we are slaves. I choose not to.



Note the word "if". Do the choices of goods and services we have today sustain control over our lives? I would say that, as a capitalistic society, our lives control what goods and services we are offered, which is the exact opposite.

I have noticed over the years that many of the Marxist arguments are very eloquent, moving, and powerful. They are also great examples of mind control and propaganda. In order to talk about this statement you implictly accept its premise. These arguments come apart at close examination, but you have to work at it. It took me all day to verbalize what I felt.

I'm not questioning your intelligence, Dystopic. I think you are better informed in this than I am. I was just seeing if I could articulate an intelligent counter-argument.

I sort of dialed the post up to "Suicidal", I guess.

Or do you?

The average individual gets pelted with 3000 thousand advertisements each, at least a third cary subliminal messages.

Think about it.

I always wonder that if we were like the Compactors the world would be a better place.

What is a Compactor?

It is a common peice of equipment used in the process of garbage disposal. As to how us being garbage disposal units makes the world a better place, i have absolutely no idea! Sounds like a crazy mans talk.

no not compactors.

THE COMPACTORS.

They are a group of individuals arround the world that have sworn to buy only the essentials(food, hygene, water) and nothing materialistic.

Whenever they do have to buy clothes they by used, they dont by any new electronics, and the limit the luxuries.

Its quite interesting.


I take an offense to that

hehehe sorry.

Unfortunately their system only works because not everyone buys second hand.... if everyone did suddenly start buying second hand then the economy would colapse and the price of existing second hand items would go through the roof! Not an ideal outcome for the world at all.

As a relatively poor person i do often buy second hand but i am always grateful for those who buy new because they cause my second hand things to be cheaper!

I wouldn't want to live like that. My kids call me cheap as it is. They would have me committed if I did that.

Would another word for "Compactor" be "hippie"? Isn't the best way to change a system to work from within, rather than being a fanatical outsider?

Here's an interesting question, and I don't have an answer. If we're buying cheap goods from China, how much of that money is going for transportation expense? Maybe we should make an effort to buy local goods.

We have the "most value for the buck" idea ingrained in us. Look at Wal-mart's advertising. Maybe a niche market will develop for more expensive but eco-friendly products.

Darn, maybe I should be looking for business space instead of posting...

good morning Oz,



not in the slightest, at least not as far as i'm concerned; i believe you're a rational and composed individual. and i didn't get the impression that you doubt my intelligence. the random bad mood notwithstanding, i try to be polite and civil - assuming i'm treated as such.



and you raise very important questions. i myself don't fully agree with any theorist, Marxian or otherwise. i do accept the premise that there's a propoganda machine built up especially in the U.S., for two reasons. one is simply the advertising-media complex, how thickly it saturates everyday life. whether or not you view that as a source or propoganda is your decision, but i also feel that ideology pervades our society because i don't think it's possible to live outside ideology. real objectivity isn't possible by human beings, and the best course of action we can take is to try and see the ways we each think and act in accordance with ideologies. in other words, i think an aware person is reflexive.

maybe you don't feel that a propoganda machine surrounds your everyday life. it certainly doesn't seem as obvious or heavy-handed as that of Orwell's 1984. but i ask, did the inhabitants of Airstrip One seem aware of the propoganda machine surrounding them? it seemed stark to us because it's unfamiliar. if there's an effective machine surrounding us, it'd certainly be hard to see it. but after learning as much as i have about the institutional structure of the media and advertising, i believe these industries function as a propoganda machine. it isn't a nationalistic propoganda, it's a consumeristic one - but don't think for a second that means there isn't a political agenda behind the advertising propoganda.



to this, i have another Marcuse quote:
"Freedom of enterprise was from the beginning no altogether a blessing. As the liberty to work or to starve, it spelled toil, insecurity, and fear for the vast majority of the population. If the individual were no longer compelled to prove himself on the market, as a free economic subject, the disappearance of this freedom would be one of the greatest achievements of civilization."

is such a society possible? probably not in our lifetimes, but some current Marxians think mechanical automation is what'll cause a true communist revolution (none of that Soviet B.S.).



that statement makes less sense out of context. he builds up to it by describing how many people experience freedom as the choice between things with only minor differences, such as an SUV vs. a motorcycle (or Pepsi and Coke for a more obvious example). but that's still a limited freedom.

it'd be extremely difficult for me, for example, to chose to spend the rest of my life as a student. i know i'd love it - i love learning. no, it's not an impossible choice to make, but the costs of making it would be too high (ever-mounting debt that'd pass to a next of kin when i died, not to mention a life of student poverty). i think this is what he's getting at when he says, "...but what can be chosen and what is chosen." our society makes the cost of some choices nearly suicidal, but other choices are so totally easy that making them doesn't seem like choice but common sense.

for example, i don't drive. i don't even have a lisence, and at age 25 i never have. that might not be so hard to believe, except i live in southern california, where cars may well outnumber people. i made the choice, but when people find this out about me, they're shocked. i make about 32k/year, but in one of the country's most expensive cities, if i "chose" to drive like everyone else i'd barely have enough money to scrape by. yes, i save enough money by not driving to enjoy my free time, but it costs me a spiderweb of other choices i could make if i had a car and more money. if i did chose to have a car, i'd probably be urged towards a better-paying job so that i could enjoy the "freedom" opened up by owning a car (freedom which mostly amounts to being able to spend my money more places).

this line of reasoning often provokes accusatiosn of immaturity, that's it's naive to expect something for nothing. i hardly expect that. i bring up this idea as a way to highlight the pressures in our society that marginalize certain choices. there are, in think, few things that anyone can do to prevent people from making most choices they might make. but at the same time, there's virtually no limit to how much dissuation might be fostered - either through negative pressure, or by making the desired choices so much easier to make. it's not so much that there's a single conspirator; the structure of the society we continually re-create is the source of most of these pressures i'm talking about.

personally, i consider myself a pragmatist. society changes slowly, and revolution isn't an answer in my view (what's born of fire ends in fire). i avoid clinging to an overly elaborage central belief - Marxian or otherwise. i consider communism an idea that's worth keeping in mind. ideas aren't urgent, and they don't need to be right. belief is a trickier matter. i think Marxian communism is a good idea because it teaches us that we can enact our virtues through organized government. the basic idea of communism is to feed, shelter, and give unfettered access to health care, education and persnal development to everyone. personally, i'd say that's very much in line with the american idea of 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.'

On the other hand, china is full of very poor people, bying from them helps those people in need, think of it as charity!

Also it is very common that the quality of local products does not justify their price, so should we blidly reward local industry who will take advantage of our loyalty and give us crap.