Zydor Zydor

YOR Super Ability has to change

YOR Super Ability has to change

The Super Ability of reducing opponents down to 3 moves that the YOR have needs to be amended. Its way over the top at its current value, and extremely frustrating. Build in game frustrations and you ask for angst from new or casual players. It destroys the flow of the game.

Of course it can be countered by using heavily defended ships with Eyes of the Universe ability, that can just plough thro anything they throw at them on their way to taking out high value influence planets. Thats not the issue.

A new player will be put off the game very rapidly before realising how to counter it, and you'll lose them. The move reduction should not be as harsh, a value of (say) 50% would still achieve the desired result of delaying entry and exit, but without destroying the flow of the game, and the likely the side effect of the player putting their fist thro the screen

An absolute value of 3 move points will just achieve player frustration, not innovation. A percentage value (say 50%)- as opposed to a hard coded absolute value - will gradually degrade the effect over time as opponents fleets get faster, but stilkl achieve the effect of protection when most vulnerable at the early game stages.

Game features have to make sense when placed in context with the rest of the game, or you lose players and gain bad reps. In my view this one makes no sense as it stands.

Regards
Zy
42,419 views 129 replies
Reply #101 Top
The Yor could still have their super ability, just more powerful, like 2 or 3 times that amount, to a minimum number. So that 60 move ship gets cut to 45, making it slower, but not completely crippled.


If this were the case, I wouldn't call that a super ability. Maybe a mediocre ability. If you have a ship that moves 80 parsecs, I am thinking 5 parsecs won't mean all that much, 15 might mean a little bit more than that, but still ignorable.

if it were some common affect,


If it were a common effect, that all races had, it would be worthless as a super ability to the Yor.

I constantly see posts saying this needs to be balanced and that needs to be nerfed. While a few requests are legit, most requests strike at the very heart of the game and the posters seem to miss the entire point.

Not everything is going to be balanced, it is not supposed to be. Every race is supposed to have an advantage over others and have weaknesses others can exploit. That is the point. It varies the game play and makes things interesting. Super abilities are supposed to be just that... Super. A distinct, game altering, advantage. That is the way I see things anyway.

Is speed cheese? I do not think so. If you can give the AI a 200% advantage in economy and so forth by increasing the level of play, I think any tactic to beat the AI should be able to be used if the game allows it. Brad wants to change the way we use speed. Fine by me, I very rarely have a ship faster than 20 parsecs per turn.

So, the next time you travel into Yor space, take off your shoes and stay awhile. Stop by one of our exotic planets and smell the pffffftttt flowers. Kick up your feet, pull out your data flexxie, brew yourself a nice hot cup of Joe Joe Juice, and just relax....... We'll leave the lights on for ya.   
Reply #102 Top
The Yor throwing a social party ? That would be a Super Ability a bit out of wack   

Regards
Zy
Reply #103 Top
We will just have to use the speed while we can. My 80 knot transports just got Ultradrive. Man I love that event.
Reply #104 Top
I wonder if they're going to make the engine changes in vanilla GCII, or is it just DA being adjusted?
Reply #105 Top
How about adding a new technology to compensate for the travel time issue on Large and greater size maps....

Wormhole Generators.

Such a device could open a wormhole in a distant sector. You could have several levels of the technology - each one giving greater range, precision placement of the exit 'hole', the ability to piggyback other ships or fleets through the hole, etc.

Just limit placement of exit holes to be at least 20 parsecs or whatever you choose away from a star sytem.

That way ships would still have to travel a few turns to attack after exiting the hole...

Of coarse, this idea is simple to propose, but probably harder to code for the AI...oh well, maybe in CG3....

ON EDIT: Or add permanent Wormhloes ala Starflight games (space game form the early 90's.) In that one you could use wormgholes to get around quickly, or travel very slowly through regular space.
Reply #106 Top
The original MOO did have stargates. They were fairly expensive to build and could only be built around one of your planets. They (I think) where lost when a planet was conquered. You could only travel between two stargates. So, you could get anywhere in your empire in one turn, but going to somebody else's planet required good, old fashion engines. I always thought that the stargates in MOO where one of the cooler items and I could see them having a place in GC. MOO built them as part of the ship queue, which I think would make a lot of GC sense. They would become a fixed ship in orbit of the planet with a maintenance cost, etc. This is also an obvious solution in terms of storyline as well, after all everyone had stargates originally and dismantled them (now they would be instantaneous, unlike in the story line).

With this, having slower speeds on large maps wouldn't be such a big deal in terms of game play since you would have a means of getting across your empire in a reasonable time.
Reply #107 Top
Unless the AI is changed to deploy it war fighting forces better no amount of speed nerfing is going to help.
Reply #108 Top
I always thought that the stargates in MOO where one of the cooler items and I could see them having a place in GC. MOO built them as part of the ship queue, which I think would make a lot of GC sense.


I've been plugging for teleportation gates that are managed as starbases. Making them a planetary structure does make some GC sense to me, but IMO we'd get a more interesting set of strategic choices if they were expensive starbases (especially if starbases remain as delicate as they are currently in late games).
Reply #109 Top
This is also an obvious solution in terms of storyline as well, after all everyone had stargates originally and dismantled them (now they would be instantaneous, unlike in the story line).


Could be the last tech in the propulsion branch of the techtree, which BTW is really... hmm, unorthodox to be polite. Ion Drive *after* HyperDrive, and after that Impulse Drive?! This really needs reviewing IMO. Doesn't make any kind of sense. Given this, I still can't imagine what every race used for propulsion before HD...
But a StarGate together with HyperWarp engines (call it HyperGates or whatever) could be a plausible addition to the game. Not saying that it would solve any speed issue though. That should have been spotted and fixed long ago.

Someone suggested a 1 attack per turn limit. That makes some sense. You could also have an internal damage model going, so that when ships take damage, the internal systems are affected. Ships that take engine damage, or weapons damage, aren't likely to push forward with another and another attack.
Another thing I find somewhat unorthodox is small ships having autonomies comparable to larger ships. One guy crammed in a cockpit will not be able to function properly for long, life support or not. Maybe reducing their range wouldn't be a bad idea.
Reply #110 Top
Wormhole Generators


Not a bad idea.

Although the only other thing I can think of would be only allow 1 ship per week to go through it, or maybe only being allowed to have one generator.

Just a thought.

Reply #111 Top
Note: I'm not in the DA beta, just playing regular GC2, take this with a heaping mountain of salt.

A possible alternative to the 3-move super ability is to make it so that the super ability slows a ship down to the number of engines it has. That way it won't take forever to get to Yor planets in a gigantic galaxy, but it still slows players down. I've never had more than eight engines on a ship (even in Gigantic), and IIRC the AI can project up to eight moves out.

Just my two cents.
Reply #112 Top
Frogboy: If you want to nerf engine, I think that the best way to do it would be to limit the amount of engines to one or two per ship, and not just to make them big and expensive.

Otherwise, you've just made it harder to make super fast ship, but not impossible. For example, on suicidal when I play the diplomatic game and I can get the AIs to destroy each other for me. When they are weak I can just mop up the rest of their forces easily , and blitz their undefended planets with troop transports. By just making engines bigger and more expensive you're going to make that tactic harder, but still completely doable. I would just need to put on even more engines (I almost always have a technology advantage, so even with nerfed (which means only about half filled) huge hulls I can kill their planetary defense forces) and put less troop modules but more engines onto my transports.

I'm somewhat sad about this though, because colony ships and constructors will also be affected. Slow constructors and colony ships are highly annoying IMO.
Reply #113 Top
Ahh this is exciting news to me, where everyone was complaining that the AI needed to be buffed... little did I realise that we needed to be nerfed, hehe... it makes so much sense now!
Reply #114 Top

Ugh. Please for the love of God, don't make engines bigger and cost more. I already HATE ship speed the way it is.

Maybe what I'd ask for if you HAVE to would be raise space in Large and up. Small and Tiny are already limited and just fine.
Reply #115 Top
you can make first two engines normal size, and every next one larger for the size of one engine, like 1 1 2 3 4 5 6...

so, to calculate final speed for engines with 5 speed:

speed 5 with 1 engine (size of 1 engine) would be "slow"
speed 10 with 2 engines (size of 2 engines) would be "normal"
speed 15 with 3 engines (size of 4 engines) would be "fast"
speed 20 with 4 engines (size of 7 engines) would be "very fast"
speed 25 with 5 engines (size of 11 engines) would be "extremely fast"
speed 30 with 6 engines (size of 16 engines!) would be what!?

include speed bonuses and starting ship speed and you have very nice ship speed distribution with normal and fast ships common, other ships very rare...

you can make all engines normal size and reduce speed gain per engine, but it would cause problems with impulse drives having 1 speed, then 0 speed, then 1 speed again... maybe put speed in decimal form, but discard numbers after the dot...
Reply #116 Top
I'm not all that surprised to hear the AI is designed for "small move" ships. I am surprised to learn Frogboy thought people would limit themselves to those type of ships though! For me it wasn't a question of trying to cheat the AI...I just was too impatient to wait forever for the ships to get where they were going on gigantic maps.

I'm looking forward to the rebalance. It should make gigantic maps more "epic". Attack a large peaceful and weakly armed civ at your peril because by the time you reach their core worlds, they may have been able to assemble a massive fleet to meet you. And vice versa of course. Also, those speed boost modules will suddenly become a lot more worthwhile for defence and anything that increases the value of military bases gets a big thumbs up from me! (I like the idea of military bases, but they're underpowered at the moment.)

As far as how to rebalance, I don't think you need to do anything complicated. Just make the engines big and mostly a function of hull size. You *should* be able to pile up engines onto a hull and make it super fast if you want, *but* once you've done that you shouldn't then have room to *also* make them powerful attack ships, or have room for loads of troops etc as you can at the moment. High speed should come at a heavy cost to utility.

(Oh and as far as the Yor ability goes...scaling sounds better than a hard speed cap, once the engines have already been rebalanced. Halve the speed or something. Anything that's *still* fast after a rebalance and an extra speed reduction is going to be pretty useless in all other departments)
Reply #117 Top
Attack a large peaceful and weakly armed civ at your peril because by the time you reach their core worlds, they may have been able to assemble a massive fleet to meet you.

Sounds like Ender's Game.

BTW I thought this change would be in the latest DA. Has anyone noticed if it is and do they have any comments about the implementation?
Reply #118 Top
Sounds like Ender's Game.


Yup, and it also may very well have a 12 year old at the helm.

Aaaannnddd, the ship's technology will be outdated by the time it reaches it's destination (barring upgrades).

Yup, Ender's game.
Reply #119 Top
BTW I thought this change would be in the latest DA. Has anyone noticed if it is and do they have any comments about the implementation?


The engine size change is in, as far as I can tell. I have a b2 game going where I have warp engines. In normal GC2, about this time in the game, I could have 5...maybe 6 on a ship like a colony ship or constructor. Now, I max out at 2, 3 if I skimp on some sensors and life support.

Reply #121 Top
Reply • Quote (Citizen)Evil StormbringerDecember 13, 2006 14


Cat got your tounge or just premature pushbuttonitis?   
Reply #122 Top
Thanx Goldy and Random50. It's the same way for me. I HATE slow moving ships, because um they're slow. I hate it taking forever to get somewhere. NOW I in no way am defending ships with HUGE moves, either. I think that there can be a happy middle ground somewhere.

Reply #123 Top
The game was designed around the assumption that ships would top out at speeds of around 6 to 8 moves per turn. That means the AI was designed looking for ships that might be getting tops in that area.



riiight.

So ships gettign 40 moves per turn is not something the AI has been designed to deal with.


The player is not designed to deal with speed 16 ships when limited to "6 to 8 moves per turn".

How dare those humans steal our tactic!

(all in good humor)
Reply #124 Top
Cat got your tounge or just premature pushbuttonitis?


Premature "pushbuttonitis"!
Reply #125 Top
I've got another suggestion for speed balancing:

Make the starbase interdiction module continue to reduce the speed of slow ships by 1, but also cap the speed of fast ships (at about 10). Instead of clipping the movepoints to the max speed, it should deduct the drop in max movepoints from the available movepoints. So if a ship with speed 25 (which I guess is still possible with Ultradrive and best miniaturization but big engines) moves 5 hexes and enters a starbase ZOE, both max and current movepoints drop by 15, so it's got 5/10. Next rule, negative available movepoints get charged against health. So if you moved 20 hexes, leaving you with 5/25, and entered the ZOE, you still lose 15 movepoints, doing 10 damage to each hull in the fleet. Probably that damage should be adjusted by hull size (tiny take 1 damage for every 2 negative movepoints, small 2:3, medium 1:1, large 4:3, huge 3:2) Kinda like space thickened up or something (think what would happen if you didn't slow down before entering atmosphere...)

Another thing that could be done is to adjust engine speed vs mass. A troop transport with a billion soldiers has a lot more mass than a cruiser with a dozen crew and some spare ammo.