Zydor Zydor

YOR Super Ability has to change

▼

YOR Super Ability has to change

from GalCiv2 Forums
The Super Ability of reducing opponents down to 3 moves that the YOR have needs to be amended. Its way over the top at its current value, and extremely frustrating. Build in game frustrations and you ask for angst from new or casual players. It destroys the flow of the game.

Of course it can be countered by using heavily defended ships with Eyes of the Universe ability, that can just plough thro anything they throw at them on their way to taking out high value influence planets. Thats not the issue.

A new player will be put off the game very rapidly before realising how to counter it, and you'll lose them. The move reduction should not be as harsh, a value of (say) 50% would still achieve the desired result of delaying entry and exit, but without destroying the flow of the game, and the likely the side effect of the player putting their fist thro the screen

An absolute value of 3 move points will just achieve player frustration, not innovation. A percentage value (say 50%)- as opposed to a hard coded absolute value - will gradually degrade the effect over time as opponents fleets get faster, but stilkl achieve the effect of protection when most vulnerable at the early game stages.

Game features have to make sense when placed in context with the rest of the game, or you lose players and gain bad reps. In my view this one makes no sense as it stands.

Regards
Zy
42,422 views 129 replies
Reply #51 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The game was designed around the assumption that ships would top out at speeds of around 6 to 8 moves per turn. That means the AI was designed looking for ships that might be getting tops in that area.
So ships gettign 40 moves per turn is not something the AI has been designed to deal with.


Well, seems like a case of bad planning and poor testing? If this wasn't predicted. I'm surprised it wasn't addressed sooner.
Anyways, I've seen some of these "faction super abilities" go very wrong in other games, most notably in the BatteTech CCG with the Box Powers. Balance issues, of course, which makes them rarely used. IME (and I've done some beta testing in other games) this is usually a bad idea. Someone *always* finds a way to abuse this, no matter how much you test it. Just like the engines/speed issue.
Reply #52 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
*peeks round the door*

Geeez that started a debate

Interesting facts on the designed speed re AIs. If the game rebalances to stop mega fast ships, then I have no problem with the 3 move point Yor ability. My original comment was based purely on the flow of the game, and to effectively come to a skidding halt with the current speed abilities did not make sense, and I still believe potentially confusing/frustrating for new players.

If the game rebalances to slow down the mega fast ships, the 3 move point speed as an ability fits nicely and is within the bounds of reason with a base speed of 12-18 move points. Playing Gigantic with 12-18 move point ships will be a whole new ball game - sounds fun   

Regards
Zy

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #53 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
For what it's worth, the only comment I can make about speed is that it should be relative to the size of the galaxy. A speed of 5 on a tiny galaxy gets you across the galaxy in 9 turns. On a gigantic galaxy a speed of 5 takes 48 turns (1 year) to cross the galaxy. You would need a speed of 27 on a gigantic galaxy to be comparable to a speed of 5 on a tiny galaxy.

If you do put in some fixed max speed, I would plead that you need auto-launch to rally point functionality that is absolutely reliable 100% of the time, even right after the load of a save game. Also, this should be dependable for up to 10,000 ships simultaneously on autopilot.
Reply #54 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just a question for Fuels Chief.

I have no idea how to do this and am really curious.

You invited us to look at your character profile. I did. How can you post 4 games so quickly?

Game 1 : Huge - 14 years - 102250 pts - posted 11/18/06 9:37pm
Game 2 : Gigantic 14 years - 161000 pts - posted 11/18/06 9:50pm
Game 3 : Gigantic 16 years - 183750 pts - posted 11/18/06 10:07pm
Game 4 : Gigantic 15 years - 189750 pts - posted 11/18/06 10:21pm

That run and those points are incredible!

It takes me days, sometimes a week on a small galaxy at tough. Would love to learn your secret!  
Reply #55 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think the simple way of solwing the problem is to limit the number of Movement points a Ship has to 8.

Or you can make any drives technologies taking from 50-25% of the ship space.
Reply #56 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You invited us to look at your character profile. I did. How can you post 4 games so quickly?


He stores up new game saves to play while he's away from the internet, then submits them all when he returns.
Reply #57 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think the simple way of solwing the problem is to limit the number of Movement points a Ship has to 8.

Or you can make any drives technologies taking from 50-25% of the ship space.


Please don't add a hard cap to ship speed. That will just make all ships go the same speed. What's the point of designing ships if there's only one right design?

But I would enjoy some rebalancing to reduce the power of engines. Making them larger and more expensive is a good start. Personally, I'd like a system where the engines have a small size but a large sizemod, so that they take up more space on the larger hulls. As it is now, it is much easier to make large ships fast than to make small ships fast. And maybe give the small hulls some inherent boost to speed.

Or set up a formula of diminishing returns for adding engines to a ship. Make each extra engine less effective, or larger, or more expenive than the previous one. A soft cap like this means you can still make fast ships if you really want to, but you'll have to sacrifice lots of weapons and armor to do it.

Reply #58 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
He stores up new game saves to play while he's away from the internet, then submits them all when he returns.

Yes, that plus he plays real fast. I wish I had the knack. I once made a comment to him about submitting two huge games in the same day 7 hours apart.   

When I metioned that I was amazed he could complete a game in 7 hours, he replied that it was quicker than that because he also mowed the lawn between games.   
Reply #59 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Wow! I did notice he hadn't posted a game in a few months before he rambled off those 4. Great Job Fuels!

Playing the Torian though? Something about those smug, self righteous bullies just irks me. It seems like every game I play, they are the ones that give me the most grief. I have actually developed strategies around taking them out first.

Nasty... Nasty Aliens.
Reply #60 from Stardock Forums Top
Playing the Torian though? Something about those smug, self righteous bullies just irks me. It seems like every game I play, they are the ones that give me the most grief. I have actually developed strategies around taking them out first.

The best way to take them out is to BE them. Actually in my opinion they're the best racial choice because of the "free" 25% morale bonus.
Reply #61 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Mumble, I actually thought about "being them". I have grown quite fond of the Yor though. I really like their miniaturization ability. I have gotten to the point where I actually detest the Torian.

I love playing against them however. Does this make any sense? They always seem to make my game interesting. Like the NFL in a way. Most teams step up and play better when they are playing a better team. I find that my play style becomes even more creative when facing down the Torian. For this I give them the thumbs up.

I still hate them and every little thing they do.
Reply #62 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I have never had a ship in my games go faster than 20 spaces / turn. All I know even this speed seemed bit gay to me. Iam glad the issue is looked after since AI certainly does not take an advantage of such "blitzkrieg" tactics.
Reply #63 from Stardock Forums Top
I have grown quite fond of the Yor though. I really like their miniaturization ability

Yes, the Yor's miniaturization is very powerful as of v1.31, they're next on my list for my racial medal. They also have the best set of starting techs.

Both the Torians and Arceans are excellent opponents, the Alterians can also be difficult if they get a good start. If you tend to go evil (as I have been recently) it's nice to have the Yor, Drengin and Korx as "friends" but the the Korx are definitely the weak sisters of the bunch.
Reply #64 from Stardock Forums Top
I have never had a ship in my games go faster than 20 spaces / turn

What size games do you play? Just the aspect of sending constructors to resources gets pretty tedious if they take ten turns to get there, which is what it could take on a gigantic map and a speed of 24.

In a gigantic map game your first opponent will have about 50 planets, but that first war occurs when you usually only have warp drive so my attack ships usually have a speed of 20 and my transports have a speed of 40.

Later in the game I'll have attack ships with speeds about 40 and transports with speeds of about 80 but by then my opponents usually have about 100 planets.

In either case I don't think I've ever conquered an opponent in less than ten turns. If this is what you consider a blitzkrieg then so be it.

The final war is more typically conquering 200 planets. If anyone can do this in a single turn, then my hat's off to them.
Reply #65 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It takes me days, sometimes a week on a small galaxy at tough. Would love to learn your secret!


Deploy aboard an Aircraft Carrier.

i can drop an obscene gigantic abundant in about a week.

Playing the Torian though?


Economic monsters they are. And most folks don't use them.

I have grown quite fond of the Yor though.


yuk. I am still biased from GC I though.

Please don't add a hard cap to ship speed. That will just make all ships go the same speed. What's the point of designing ships if there's only one right design?


A strong ditto for this null.

Base it on hull size. Then blame the slower speeds on smaller hulls as an engeneering issue that hasn't been worked out. Then give us a line of engeneering tech so it can be worked out.

While were at it, the Frog has stated that he disfavors gigantic galaxies and that in the future the scoring could change to benefit those playing on non gigantic maps. If i could keep getting the same type scores on smaller maps the need for speed issue would completely go away. for me atleast.





Reply #66 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I play medium maps exclusively now days and the main reason is constructors. In medium map there arent so many of em and I wont fry my nerves sheparding them to star bases.

Also the ships getting stuck next to the planets when planet rally point is set bug, seems to happen less frequently on medium maps.
Reply #67 from Stardock Forums Top
Also the ships getting stuck next to the planets when planet rally point is set bug, seems to happen less frequently on medium maps

This bug kills me. In v1.31 it seemed to be mostly fixed except for the first turn after the load of a save game, when about 50% of ships "forget" where they're going. But my home planet *never* remembers where to go so I always just send those ships off by hand.

I suspect that this is a processor performance related issue (timeout?) and it would make sense that this would occur less on smaller maps. I also have a 900 MHz Celeron that was a POS when I bought it 5 years ago but I'm getting an Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 based machine, hopefully that will help my problem.

But back to the topic at hand, a speed of 20 on a medium is equilivent to a speed of 53 on a gigantic map. I'd have no issue with a speed limit that scaled with galaxy size.
Reply #68 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd have no issue with a speed limit that scaled with galaxy size.


Stardock should give you a job mumble.

Reply #69 from Stardock Forums Top
Stardock should give you a job mumble.


Er. Thanks, I think.    But just to be on the safe side, I think I'll keep my day job.   
Reply #70 from Stardock Forums Top
Actually the problem of the blitzkrieg tactic is probably more of an issue on smaller maps sizes. Certainly speed is part of the issue, but the number of planets to conquer has at least as big a part in it as speed. As I mentioned, conquering 200 planets in a single turn would be quite a feat no matter what your speed. But if you're on a 50 planet medium galaxy, conquering a 15 planet opponent in a single turn wouldn't be difficult. Perhaps playing gigantic abundant all galaxies aren't quite as easy as they're cracked up to be?
Reply #71 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Perhaps playing gigantic abundant all galaxies aren't quite as easy as they're cracked up to be?


I'm convinced. I am not the powers that be though.

Reply #72 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd have no issue with a speed limit that scaled with galaxy size.


I don't know if I agree here. If you scale speed with galaxy size, then you're really not playing in a "bigger" galaxy. Basically we'd end up with all galaxies being the same size, but some have smaller subunits of travel and denser planet population.
Reply #73 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Stardock should give you a job mumble.


They gave him a title, and those are steadily greater parts of compensation packages here in the US--think of him as part-time with pay based purely in this New Economy stuff

Seriously, though, I think Mumble's point about map size is one of the most useful responses to the status quo made in this thread.

Alas, I'm again somewhat persuaded that Frogboy "knows best" given his combo of intimacy with both the code and the team working it. I know just enough math to have little doubt math-sophisticates could debate AI design principles until a passed-the-Turing-test AI makes them stop. I know just enough about software development to respect the fact that you have to go RTM sometime, and that means hard decisions.
Reply #74 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't know if I agree here. If you scale speed with galaxy size, then you're really not playing in a "bigger" galaxy. Basically we'd end up with all galaxies being the same size, but some have smaller subunits of travel and denser planet population.

Yes and no. Certainly as far as travel across the galaxy you wouldn't be playing a bigger galaxy if the speed limit were proportional. But there are a lot of aspects of the game that are larger and take longer even without a proportional speed limit. As it is now we don't have a proportional speed limit and people that play mediums get the same attack ship speed of 40 and transport speed of 80.

Sure it's no problem to some one playing smaller galaxies if the speed limit is reduced, a speed of 90 crosses the medium galaxy in one turn.

But I wonder if a lot of the folks that have criticized the current speeds have even ever played a gigantic game? I've spent 8 weeks playing my current gigantic game for a number of reasons ranging from the amount of time I can dedicate to play, to the crappy PC that I own, to the rally point bug (this last one has probably cost me 4 weeks alone). You can see why I'm not that interested in something that would slow the game down any further.

To those who would have the automatic response of why don't I just play smaller galaxies, I would counter that if you want to avoid blitzing the AI why don't you play larger galaxies, or perhaps, why don't you just not blitz the AI?
Reply #75 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just to make my position clear, I really have no problem with the Yor's super ability. In fact, it wouldn't really bother me if everyone had this ability (including the human player). I think it's sufficient if full speed only applies to your own influence area. Of course, this would give a tremendous boost to the defender, but I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I think the defender needs some help in this game, given that the attacker can pick and choose the time and place of battle.