Meanwhile the Terran player, with superior diplomacy, has got a good deal on miniurisation tech from someone else, the Altarian lpayer has researched it himself, and everyone else is sending warships straight at you after your disasterous attempt at diplomacy ended with you calling their mothers walruses.

rofl!

Actually, I really think that the core races should be fixed and uncustomisable... that is, after all, why you have custom civs - to customise.

This, I think, is the best solution to everything!

I Have played with Yor and I msut say, I don't think they are that great. I think I prefer custom. yes they get whiped out on their own beacue of diplo snafus. I'm tired of all the races treating me like crap and getting less than 1/2 the moneyf or selling any tech

Playing against the Yor, I've found that their lack of diplomacy skills and their lack of influence generation kept them from ever being one of the major races that I had to square off against in the end.

Playing as the Yor, I've found that I almost always feel like everyone is out to get me.


P.S. Nerf Shamans!

I've spent a large amount of time reading all these threads, and I agree with the group saying that the Yor are FINE as they are. So what if they have better minuturisation? this is the fun of the game. Every race has different abilities, different AI. Thats the good bit, learning to deal, and evolivng strategies to cope. I'm playing a gigantic galaxy with rare planets (habitable and regular) right now, and I have only 2 planets. The Yor's miniturisation comes in useful for them here, as its VERY hard to create big fleets. So to cope, I use the fact that everyobdy hates them to my advantage, and set 7 races on them. You evolve strategies to beat foes, and my custom race has about 20+ miniturisation aswell. To compensate, I'm using 9 ability points, like the korx do. It's not hard.
But, if you insist on nerfing the Yor, and taking what is IMO some fun and challenge away from the game, go to c/program files/stardock/totalgaming/galciv2/data/english/raceconfig.xml
You can change the starting abilities, techs, customisation points, minuturisation, logos, description, EVERYTHING about a race there. If you don't like the Yor's "Advantages", nerf them yourself. But I like a challenge, so I say keep things as they are.

Got through the first half... way too many things on here... One solution would be this...
all Races have bonuses and penalties (a la MoO2). Take this Yor Diplomacy Penalty out from "under-the-hood" and put it out in the open. Allow players to disable some things to specialize in others. Of what need is production if I make so much money I can buy everything? Why do I need logistics when my ships are nigh on indestructible? Perhaps just adding possible penalties would help out some people.
As for the techs... live with it. I almost always have less colonies than everyone else on a tough gigantic. Less ships, less diplomacy, less colonies. I suck. But I can still win in the long run because I can research technologies in a third of their time. And be well ahead.

so Stardock, please add penalties! If that's viable!

Penalties are added same way as bonuses, just go to raceconfig.xml , and where you want the negative just insert it as -x% (x being the number of course)

Well, just let me stupidly and childishly waste your time again.

You made my straw man comment apply to you. Fantastic. This place is worse than the UK on Guy Fawkes Night when it comes to churning those things out.

I still think the Yor should have a higher bonus in this category than is possible for you to achieve with customising a race.

Why stop people from playing the kind of race that they want to play? Why is it that to get miniaturization like the Yor, you need to play a hostile undiplomatic race of evil robot oppressors? Race customization is a great feature, there's no reason to gimp it.

What exactly is the point of being able to recreate the Yor as a custoim race? Why not just play as the Yor?!

You miss the point. If it were possible to recreate the Yor as a custom race, it would be possible to make variations that take some aspects of the Yor (miniaturization or logistics or what have you) without taking all of them. Being able to recreate the Yor is an issue about the strength of the race customization feature; its not about wanting to play as the Yor every time.

Side A: WHY DO YOU LOVE MAKING THIS GAME UNBALANCED AND BROKEN??? OMG!!! STOP DELIBERATELY MAKNIG THE GAME UNBALANCED!

Do you know what a straw man is? Here's a link so you can educate yourself and hopefully stop wasting other people's time with your fallacies.

Empyrean... you really need to research more diplomacy techs. Telling people they speak drivel, that they're stupid, childish, calling their opinions fallacies.... hell, I even read you say in another thread, and I quote "those peoples opinions dont count".

We disagree, deal with it.

You stated your opinions and no one attacked you personally, instead of strengthening your point with personal attacks you seriously undermine them.

You've got good points. Points I disagree with but they're well thought out and written. Now can you stick to playing nicely?

One thing I find interesting about the Yor... in a game I'm playing now, the Arceans control more than half the galazy and the Yor control the smallest territory. However, the Yor still out populate the Arceans. Otherwise, I don't see anything special about them. The Arceans have actually taken 4 Yor planets by cultural conquest. I simply don't see a problem with the Yor.

One thing I find interesting about the Yor... in a game I'm playing now, the Arceans control more than half the galazy and the Yor control the smallest territory. However, the Yor still out populate the Arceans. Otherwise, I don't see anything special about them. The Arceans have actually taken 4 Yor planets by cultural conquest. I simply don't see a problem with the Yor.

Increase loyalty, but that's the part of Yor you can choose for any race I think. This allows them to stuff more farms on their planets. Many tiems conquering a Yor planet I had to immidiately demolish 2 or 3 farms.

Empyrean - doesn't the large number of people saying that the Yor are NEVER as powerful in their games as you are implying seem to suggest that your problem is either seriouly overblown or self-inflicted rather than being a game-breaking flaw?

If your issue is really that you want to play a custom race with similar flaws to the Yor,
1) Edit the XML file. Takes all of 20 seconds
2) Don't post in an utter nonsense thread about the Yor being god-like and unbeatable, confusing your disappointment with the not-100%-customisable races with the above mentioned nonsense whining.

If you're really not in the "omg omg the Yor they're coming to kill me they have the power of Zeus and God and Buddha combined", you needn't have replied to me, since my post wasn't addressing you. The Yor are balanced just fine.

Empyrean... you really need to research more diplomacy techs. Telling people they speak drivel, that they're stupid, childish, calling their opinions fallacies....

First of all, if you had any idea what a straw man was in the first place, you'd know that it is a logical fallacy, not just a smear you apply to someone else's opinion. It's not a big step to go from "logical fallacy" to "drivel". Those who rely on those fallacies are stupid and childish. If you don't like my saying so, then deal with it.

hell, I even read you say in another thread, and I quote "those peoples opinions dont count".

Don't take that out of context, and if you're going to quote me do it directly, since spelling and punctuation actually do matter sometimes. In any case, there were some people who wanted to know how the game worked, and a couple others (you among them) who didn't care. The curious group was met with scorn on your part (your suggestion came across as close to the turn-based equivalent of button-mashing), when I pointed out that the opinions of those who don't care how the game mechanics work are not relevant to the issue. You construed my statement to be a dismissal of everyone who disagrees with me, and that's not the case. If someone disagrees with me on grounds that are not fallacious to begin with, then there is room for respect in disagreement. However, if someone bases their position on a fallacy then I'm going to point out where their reasoning is flawed. You especially have done this, misrepresenting what others have written and then attacking them for it, or telling them that their style of gameplay is inferior to yours. You didn't attack me, but you acted like a real punk to others who didn't do anything to bring it on themselves.

First of all, if you had any idea what a straw man was in the first place, you'd know that it is a logical fallacy, not just a smear you apply to someone else's opinion. It's not a big step to go from "logical fallacy" to "drivel". Those who rely on those fallacies are stupid and childish. If you don't like my saying so, then deal with it.

There is another logical fallacy called an "ad hominem attack." You might want to go look that up.

An "argumentum ad hominem" essentially takes the form that "You are wrong because of X irrelevant fact about you." Calling someone an idiot, or a stupid child, or something else is not an ad hominem unless it is a premise of one's argument. "You're wrong because you're a stupid child" is an ad hominem. "You're a stupid child because you're relying on logical fallacies to support your argument" is not.

You might want to go look that up before you try to teach its meaning to someone who already knows it better than you.

Nerf the Yor The Yor are balanced IMHO. Heck, Why dont you just whine about the Altarians huge chances of finding Ranger ships every 60 turns?

Nerf people with no sense of humor whatsoever!

Because if all the CIV's were balanced then they would all be robots like the YOR to begin with. This is what made Master of Magic great, it wasn't balanced either. Same for the origional Age of Wonders Undead were greatly overpowered. I'm glad they went this route because it makes each race UNIQUE, DIFFERENT, more or less worrisome. If you want balance go play something else, this ISN'T a MULTIPLAYER game,....thank god.

Heh this is odd

The Yor are overpowered! We cant get the Yor special abilitys on the custom race screen!

Um if their so overpowered because of their racial ability then why do you want it on the custom race screen?

(yes I know that some people are not argueing for that!, but it does seem to be the way the argument is going)

and in reality the priceing of it would force you to take a penalty to get it anyway.

Because if all the CIV's were balanced then they would all be robots like the YOR to begin with.

That just doesn't follow. There are a ton of different ways to play and win; just because races are balanced doesn't mean they all have to be the same. Again, think of Starcraft. There is variety there even though there's only one win condition.

Um if their so overpowered because of their racial ability then why do you want it on the custom race screen?

It isn't possible for everyone to be overpowered at the same time. If other races had the same potential, the game would be balanced regardless of where the standard is set.

and in reality the priceing of it would force you to take a penalty to get it anyway.

Pricing would have to be determined if/when that gets implemented.

As for the diplomatic penalty, there is no trace of it in the raceconfig.xml file, where the other data is stored. I think their diplomatic problems are from them being evil. The AI plays each race differently, and the Yor don't seem to be very active diplomats in any case. For the player, the only shortcoming they have to overcome is being evil to begin with, and there are other races that have to deal with that but don't have the inherent advantages that the Yor get.

That's nonsense, since even the Drengin, being evil, have better diplomacy than the Yor. Both are equally evil.

Is the fact that the AI developer said that they have a major diplomacy penalty not enough for you, especially since it's already been said? Do you think you know better than one of the guys that wrote the game?


Also you're still just plain asserting that the Yor are overpowered without giving any real evidence other than of the "because I say so" variety. You mention Starcraft which is good becasue imo it's one of the best game balances I've seen between variety and overall balance. Even then it's far from perfect in non-standard situations. It's impossible to have 2 or more sides that are different AND equally powerful in all situations. Perhaps you are only looking at a small subset of conditions and failing to see the bigger picture, where they are equal and not overpowered?

Is the fact that the AI developer said that they have a major diplomacy penalty not enough for you, especially since it's already been said? Do you think you know better than one of the guys that wrote the game?

Was he speaking of an actual diplomacy penalty (which seems like it would be in the xml file if that were the case), or was he referring to the Yor AI's tendency to be diplomatically inept? One of those penalties applies to players, and the other doesn't. If there really is a penalty that is stored somewhere other than the raceconfig.xml file, then I'll concede the point, but there seems to be some ambiguity on the matter.

Also you're still just plain asserting that the Yor are overpowered without giving any real evidence other than of the "because I say so" variety.

No, I'm not. Of the two inherent, unmodifiable bonuses (logistics and miniaturization) the Yor are number 1 in both of them. Oh yeah, and they start with a whole pile of relatively expensive techs, too. Try to recreate their tech setup with a custom race and you won't even be able to get half of them.

It's impossible to have 2 or more sides that are different AND equally powerful in all situations. Perhaps you are only looking at a small subset of conditions and failing to see the bigger picture, where they are equal and not overpowered?

I never said they had to be equally powerful in all situations. I said that when they are playing to their strengths they should be equal. They should not all be equally powerful in all situations; the problem is that the Yor have inherent advantages that other races do not have, making them better when playing to their strengths and less weak than they otherwise should be when they're not.

Again you're only looking at one side of the coin.

the Yor are number 1 in both of them

they are also a distant last place in at least one other! And diplomacy and all it brings (trade, alliances, probability of becoming the galactic whipping boy, etc) is far more important than a few logistics points, and unless you're already maxed out your miniturisation techs, making up for that is just a few research points away.

the problem is that the Yor have inherent advantages that other races do not have

they also have inherent weaknesses the other races do not have!

Seriously, to even be debating that the Yor don't have a significant diplomatic disadvantage you really can't have ever played them. Fire up a game as the Drengin (another evil race) and see how things are diplomatically. Start another identical game as the Yor and see just how much worse they have it. It's not just "they programmed them to play lousy" at all.

The diplomatic disadvantage is real, significant, and completely obvious...

Empyrean... you really need to research more diplomacy techs. Telling people they speak drivel, that they're stupid, childish, calling their opinions fallacies.... First of all, if you had any idea what a straw man was in the first place, you'd know that it is a logical fallacy, not just a smear you apply to someone else's opinion. It's not a big step to go from "logical fallacy" to "drivel". Those who rely on those fallacies are stupid and childish. If you don't like my saying so, then deal with it. hell, I even read you say in another thread, and I quote "those peoples opinions dont count". Don't take that out of context, and if you're going to quote me do it directly, since spelling and punctuation actually do matter sometimes. In any case, there were some people who wanted to know how the game worked, and a couple others (you among them) who didn't care. The curious group was met with scorn on your part (your suggestion came across as close to the turn-based equivalent of button-mashing), when I pointed out that the opinions of those who don't care how the game mechanics work are not relevant to the issue. You construed my statement to be a dismissal of everyone who disagrees with me, and that's not the case. If someone disagrees with me on grounds that are not fallacious to begin with, then there is room for respect in disagreement. However, if someone bases their position on a fallacy then I'm going to point out where their reasoning is flawed. You especially have done this, misrepresenting what others have written and then attacking them for it, or telling them that their style of gameplay is inferior to yours. You didn't attack me, but you acted like a real punk to others who didn't do anything to bring it on themselves.

Your constant rudenesss beggars belief.

Now, I've been polite, but you obviously neither recognise it nor respect it, so let's try this a different way you uncouth, pretentious bigot.

First of all, do you think you are somehow exceptional in your knowledge of the English language. Why do you keep pointing people to a dictionary reference? It's like you just learned that expression "straw man" and now you have to use it every time you speak to someone. Other people do also possess intelligence too you know, you don't own a monopoly.

The quote stands, I will be happy to link it if you like. There is not a single drop of scorn on my part in that other thread, it is in fact a polite, and interesting discussion until you chime in with your ungracious, self appreciative statements reporting other's opinions as being totally lacking in worth just like in this thread, while naturally you (and those who agree with you) are somehow innately correct . Everyone else builds off fallacies huh? How contemptuously ignorant!

You say that you will point out that people's reasoning is flawed. Please do try to do so as I really haven't noticed it.... at present all you do is offer insult to try to undermine their position rather than dealing with their point of view. Let's get this perfectly clear shall we.... the things you call "fallacies", "straw men", "drivel", "childish beliefs are other, real human's beliefs. I don't know if you feel like you have some moral or intellectual supremacy but you are surely lacking in the empathetic appreciation of diverging opinion.

I, especially have attacked people and told them their gameplay is inferior to mine? Hmmm, now you are hallucinating as well. Maybe it's just a link between your total lack of appreciation for other people's opinions that makes you misconstrue people's statements as attacks. This IS a discussion forum and people do talk about methods of play. Stating a diverging idea in a polite manner does not constitute an attack.... this probably seems fallacious to you too.

Oops, your vocabulary slipped... best go look in a dictionary to find your word for next week.... Punk denotes either the music scene and its devotees or, in US slang, a young man who fights and is involved in criminal activities. Are you accusing me of a crime here or of being an adherent to 70's music?

Let's see if you can garner some respect now for someone who treats you in a like manner to the way you treat others.

As the rest of this post is probably going to be like water off a duck's back, let me leave you with one punchy catechism: The quality of your argument is not important as the delivery of it.

The best solution to this as I can see it (I did mention it before but it got lost in all that drivel!! ) is to make all the core races uncustomisable. Give them all fixed strengths and weaknesses that are unmodifiable unless you edit the xml.

This creates more scope in the custom races.

First of all, custom races should have access to all abilities. So you could, for example, give a 5, 10, 15 % boost to miniaturisation to a custom race. They would also have an innate logistics ability on the lower end of the core races' scale.

Where the core races would stand out would be in the areas that they specialise in, they get a higher number than is possible to put into a custom race. So for example, a custom race can spend points to achieve 15% miniaturisation, while the Yor have 20%.

The reasoning behind giving the core races a particular skill which is higher than is achievable through customisation is to maintain a sense of distinct personality. Examples might be like the Korx who have long been the intergalactic traders - they know the lanes. the profitable routes.... their trade skills would be just a little higher than is achievable by custom races.... this would really round out the character of the Korx as the supreme trading nation. The Yor, robots that they are, have specialised knowledge in manufacturing smaller parts to upgrade themselves.... no other race would have such a requirement or be so skilled as these major races, so the Yor would have the best miniaturisation known. The Thalan's insect like qualities make them more stolid workers and more easily transform the planet around them.

I think this system resolves a number of different threads on abilities. It also greatly helps there to be distinctive characteristics to the core civs making them stronger or weaker in some areas (you cant go in and put some points into an area you feel is lacking). It also makes Custom races more appealing as they can achieve equality in most areas with the other civs but cannot quite match the core competencies of the major races.

Well I saw YOR and OVERPOWERED and thought you would like this screenshot.

Link