Thoughts on Drengin as of beta 3d

from GalCiv2 Forums
I've heard from a couple people around here that the Drengin (Spelling?) and the Yor are considered very poor races. In an effort to decide this for myself and provide useful feedback to Stardock, I'd like to use this thread to document my games where I play as either race and give my thoughts and feedback on the matter. If anyone would like to offer their own feedback playing these races, I'd be glad to hear it.

My first game as the was played with the following settings:

Map settings: Large, all victory conditions, allow surrenders, disable mega events, disable minor races, disable tech trading, super abilities active, tech rate normal, occasional number of stars, random star density, common habitable planets, common number of planets, anomalies rare, asteroids abundant.

My race: Drengin
Political party: War Party
Race abilities: Weapons +20%, Morale +25%, Hit Points + 10%, Repair + 40%, Sensors +4%, Soldiering +50%, Courage and Creativity +25%

Computer races: Arcean, Terran, Torian, Yor, Iconian.
Difficulty: Tough

As you can see, from the ingame race window, I did not put any points into Morale; this was an attempt to play on "hard mode" because I've often heard that maxing the Morale, Economy and Population bonuses turn any game into a pathetically easy experience.

To summarize, I rushed the Arceans with just enough fighters to cripple their industry by killing all their asteroid mining bases, hence making them less capable of producing a credible military threat, while dedicating enough funds to tech up to Planetary Invasion. After the Transports started churning out, my ridiculously high soldiering bonus enabled me to take over planets very easily, even if I only had 1000 soldiers against a planet with a population of 6000+. Due to this, I was able to swipe three of his planets early. I talked him into a peace arrangement (Which he hastily agreed to, having half my military strength and only four planets left) so I could concentrate on building up my planet infrastructure some and balancing my economy back out, as it was quite stressed during the war. As soon as my economy was back on track and I felt capable of finishing him off, I redeclared war and finished him off. After the Arceans were finished, I felt as if the game was largely in my hand, and it was only a matter of time until I won. For the sake of not cramming an unnecessary amount of text into this post, I shall go ahead and say I eventually earned a very satisfying Conquest Victory.

My thoughts on Super Dominator: I believe this Superpower is very good because it is the major thing that enables the Drengin to be highly aggressive early game. Without a great economy, I found it imperative to rely on their extremely cheap slave labor and research as many soldiering techs as possible, so I could make the absolute most of every transport I built and not need to use special invasion plans which could quickly deplete my treasury. I personally feel that they are fairly well balanced, and that their racial buildings are good enough to ensure they can wage war as cheaply as possible to counteract the lack of bonuses to their economy. But I feel two things should be considered in a future patch for them.

One, I believe that Super Dominator needs to scale at least somewhat with your current techs. I do not mind that the ships that spawn from it are small class vessels, but the fact that they spawn in the dozens and only have a paltry few damage and virtually no movement speed makes them seldom used late game. Early game they are extremely powerful, possibly imbalanced, because they enable the Drengin to be highly aggressive towards whatever race they first encounter and almost assuredly slaughter over them militarily, with the unfortunate target having practically no chance at all unless the AI is smart enough to shut down military spending and tech like there's no tomorrow. Overall, Stardock should look into a way to make them scale more smoothly from early game to late game.

Two, I believe that the player should be able to choose where the Super Dominator ships spawn. I've thought about the balance implications of this, since in early game if you choose to spawn them on a planet near an enemy empire's space they could enable the Drengin to rush their opponents even faster than before, but I feel that if Stardock finds a way to more smoothly scale the strength of the Super Dominator ships that it won't be a problem.

Overall, my initial thoughts have been that the Drengin are a powerful race that are a joy to play because of their highly aggressive style of gameplay. I think that even with no morale, economy or population bonuses to start with (Outside of their natural race morale bonus, of course) they are more powerful than other people give them credit for. As long as you play them to their greatest strength (Their industry, soldiering, and ships) by being as aggressive as possible without getting in over your head, they are quite good.

If anyone wants to explain to me exactly why I'm an idiotic noobtard who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and that the Drengin need to be buffed, I'm all ears ::P But my initial thoughts are that they're fine.

Now, to get a game going as the Yor!

Bugs noticed during first game:
Noticed a typo in the description of Artificial Slavelings upon completion of the tech; it says "coords" instead of cords.

Noticed a grammar error in the description of the Drengin homeworld, in the part where it talks about how the Torians were enslaved by them.

In the description of the Death Furnace tech upon completing it, there are question marks used instead of quotation marks around the word soul.
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Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If anyone wants to explain to me exactly why I'm an idiotic noobtard who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and that the Drengin need to be buffed, I'm all ears : But my initial thoughts are that they're fine.
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Try playing all the races at maso or higher and i'm sure you'll find the drengin to be one of if not the weakest race, tough should be easy for anyone. Do a like for like comparison with Korath. Only thing Drengin are good at really is solderering, Drath are better though. Super Dominator is a much talked about super ability on these forums and pretty much universally hated for one reason or another.

The few things the drengin are ok/good at other races like Korath and Drath are way better in the same things and other areas as well.

Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Try playing all the races at maso or higher and i'm sure you'll find the drengin to be one of if not the weakest race, tough should be easy for anyone.
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This brings up some balance questions, I think. Maybe this has been discussed before, but I don't think I've seen it in the TA beta talk yet:

Is it even possible to balance the game so the player will have an equal chance at victory with every race in the game, across all difficulty levels? Every race has its own unique pros and cons now in the TA expansion. Some races have economic strengths, others have military or diplomatic strengths with a weaker economy or slow initial growth (Drath) as an offset to those other advantages. However the only factor that's adjusted with increasing difficulty settings is economic. That's going to expose the economic deficiencies more than anything else, as you move across difficulty levels.

If an economically weak race plays fine at Normal or Tough level, but you think it needs help at masochistic level, then what happens to a player who is more comfortable playing the game at Normal or Tough difficulty? Doesn't that make the race overpowered at that level?
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

However the only factor that's adjusted with increasing difficulty settings is economic. That's going to expose the economic deficiencies more than anything else, as you move across difficulty levels.

If an economically weak race plays fine at Normal or Tough level, but you think it needs help at masochistic level, then what happens to a player who is more comfortable playing the game at Normal or Tough difficulty? Doesn't that make the race overpowered at that level?
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I agree completely.
Rather than boosting the AI economy at the higher difficulty levels, I'd think it'd be better if all AI stats get a comparable boost, making them better at everything, rather than just economy...
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I've never found the Drengin to be underpowered... rather, they're one of the few races that I've had comparatively easy games with in TA. The only catch is that they really don't compare at all to their Korathian cousins, who have faster weapons research and all sorts of nasty martial, industrial, and influence technology.

Super dominator is definitly one of the more annoying abilities. With low tech levels, it's potent, but one the enemy starts fielding decent ships those dominators are only good for boosting your rating or using as cannon fodder. Those goddamned dominators are one of the main reasons that the Drengin consistently overestimates its military strength, too.

And lets not even start with the difficulty of moving fourty fleets of the things around, and the annoying graphical slowdowns. And the extra time they add to a turn.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If the super dominators ships reflected your current technology, they would be more useful later in the game. Perhaps 2 weapons, of your best, or second best you have, 1 or 2 defense modules, 1 ship engine, and 1 life support module would make them useful later in the game. Right now, the only thing they are good for late in the game is cash for when you scrap them.

Now, to get a game going as the Yor!
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Expect them to start out with a strong ecomomy, but also expect them to start losing their advantage around mid game. Their more advanced military production structures have absurd upkeep, ussually much higher than any equal boost from other civs. Inaddition, they lack much in terms of economic structures (ussually 1 per planet) which further limits their economic power.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I haven't play tested the Drengin, but looking over their tech trees, shouldn't the Drengin have some sort of mind control technology to quickly subjugate alien civilizations (possibly giving a morale, economic and/or production bonus)? This should be a nice reflection of the difference in strategy between the Drengin and the Korath.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
i think you have forgotten that there is more than just conquest wins to this game .Not everyones style is geared toward conquest wins . Nor is every race geared toward conquest way of winning.You are going to have to take in consideration the other three ways of winning diplomatic,influence and technological.And to further muddy the waters Size of game can have a big effect on the way to win also.I realize that if all you are looking for is big scores in meta then conquest is the only way to go . I think the present way of scoring takes away from the other styles and ways to win .So then all everyone thinks about is how the races do in conquest not in the other ways you can win this game . Just my two cents.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Is it even possible to balance the game so the player will have an equal chance at victory with every race in the game, across all difficulty levels?
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Short answer=no

And I don't think we can expect Stardock to fully balance all 12 races it's probably impossible to make them all equal in quality. However races like the Drengin in my eyes are obviously underpowered so Stardock needs to improve them imo.

The reason I brought up difficulty was because at tough the game should be so easy that the bonuses/weaknesses of each race don't come into play so much. Playing low difficulty means it's harder to notice the strengths and weaknesses of each race just because the AI's wouldn't be testing the player to the point they might lose. On higher levels your playing catchup to the AI early on so the strengths and flaws become much more obvious, the weaker the race the longer it takes to catch up if you can at all.

The problem with the drengin is there weak in most things. Industry,Culture,Research,economy morale buildings are basically weaker than every other race. There super Ability is awful. They have great soldering though the Drath is better. They have great starting abilities and 10 points to spend but the Korath is similar but way better in this as well.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Rather than boosting the AI economy at the higher difficulty levels, I'd think it'd be better if all AI stats get a comparable boost, making them better at everything, rather than just economy...
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At the higher levels the AI receives high bonuses in many areas. Difficulty Level
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The problem with the drengin is there weak in most things. Industry,Culture,Research,economy morale buildings are basically weaker than every other race. There super Ability is awful. They have great soldering though the Drath is better. They have great starting abilities and 10 points to spend but the Korath is similar but way better in this as well.
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I'm going to have to question this as far as Industry and Research go. Although I haven't been exposed to all the industry buildings of every race so far, the Drengin buildings strike me as very appropriate for their style of gameplay. Their Slave Canyons may only have 10 industry points compared to an Industrial Sector's 12, but consider that SCs take only 1bc for upkeep, whereas ISs take a whole 6bc. On a ratio of cost effectiveness, the Drengin factories blows the others out of the water. The same goes for their research buildings, from what I've seen; they give less points per building than most other races, but they have a better cost to effectiveness ratio. This is important because it allows them to get away with having a weaker economy than other races, and because it allows them to wage war as cheaply as possible.

I disagree that their super ability is awful. Although I do not think it compares to, say, Super Breeder, I think it's very important for the Drengin playstyle. Without it, they could not be as aggressive early game, and they wouldn't get a 2000+bc bonus just for starting a war in the lategame (Though I really, really wish they scaled with your tech). I believe Super Dominator needs to be buffed somehow, but it's far from terrible.

Also, the Drath may have better soldering, but they have that pesky -20% population bonus thing to worry about ::P

Since many here have expressed doubt on my opinions on the Drengin because of the difficulty level I've played at, I shall attempt to play higher difficulty levels. Perhaps then the imbala that some of you speak of will become clear to me.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm going to have to question this as far as Industry and Research go.
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The low maintenence and cheap build cost of there buildings is definitely a strength but really doesn't come close to making up for there weaknesses imo. Having starting factories that produce only 3units is a major disadvantage. It makes them very weak colonisers compared to other races.

The economic advantages of low maintenence buildings are lost due to poor eco buildings.

The key argument imo why dregin need improvement is due to a comparrison with the Korath. Why would anyone pick the drengin over korath there weaker in every single respect.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I think that, before I continue to argue for the quality of the Drengin or if they do or don't need any buffs, I'm going to have to finally play the Korath. Your continual comparison between the two makes me curious.

In any event, my first game with the Yor has been rough so far. I got the short end of the stick during the colony rush phase of the game; I only managed to get two planets other than my homeworld! o.o Fortunately, I've been able to very successfully wage war against the Iconians, who spawned right next to me. I've already seized their three of their planets, including their homeworld. However, I've definitely noticed some of the problems other people have spoken of; their incredibly hard-to-raise morale has made high taxing dangerous to my population in the long term. Thankfully, I managed to find a morale resource and am currently mining the hell out of it ::P

All in all, I can definitely see the Yor have a few problems so far, especially compared to some of the other races. I'll continue to give my thoughts on them as I play through my current game as them.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Can you upgrade ships received from the Super Dominator ability? If so, then if you have a lot of cash stocked up you could quickly deploy and upgrade a lot of decent ships.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Can you upgrade ships received from the Super Dominator ability? If so, then if you have a lot of cash stocked up you could quickly deploy and upgrade a lot of decent ships.
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Bad idea in general.

1: There tiny hulls so pretty useless.

2: Upgrading costs 10x as much as building ships costs.

Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes, you can upgrade the ships you get from Super Dominator. I actually did that a few times in my games, but it was often really expensive and it was difficult to balance a good economy while doing that. In the end, I mostly just used them for sentries for my borders, which they did very well due to the +4 to Sensors I took at the beginning of the game, so I could easily spot any sneaky transports gunning for my undefended worlds.

[edit]

Bad idea in general.

1: There tiny hulls so pretty useless.
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Small hulls, not tiny.

2: Upgrading costs 10x as much as building ships costs.
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Can't deny that it would be useful in a pinch though. But like I said, I didn't do it much myself; just when I needed a bit of extra oomph at the front lines. However, if you sell off, say, your other three or four dozen Super Dominator ships from declaring war in the late game, you can easily afford the cost of upgrading a handful of them to a decently high tech level.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

I think that, before I continue to argue for the quality of the Drengin or if they do or don't need any buffs, I'm going to have to finally play the Korath. Your continual comparison between the two makes me curious.

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I played the Korath in a couple of games and I have compared the Drengin and Korath tech trees carefully, here's the differences between them. Korath get a +10 moral and loyalty bonus from corrupted Genetics, and further down that line they get wretched cloners tech which allows them to build wretched harvesters, and they can boost production and give an extra +5 moral as well. Korath also have the Aul incinerators which I haven't found a need for yet but also improves production but drops planet quality. To be honest, I think the the wretched harvesters is the better tech choice.

The Drengin don't get any of this line but do get fertility acceleration and thus can make fertility clinics, the population bonus for fertility acceleration is given to the Korath in Corrupted Genetics though.

The Drengin get the full normal economics line while the Korath get their own separate economic line which is not as good. 20%/18% for the Korath economic buildings while the normal line gives you 25%, but the stock exchange also costs 1 maintenance while Graft of Ages and the others costs nothing, and the one per planet Graft of Ages also gives another +10% moral bonus.

The Korath get Dark Influence, a once per planet building which gives the Drengin a 200% influence bonus, the Drengin have nothing comparable. It seems like you can really shift strategies with this building an actually go for some culture flipping with the Korath, an option not normally possible.

The Drengin get a seperate line of slave research which makes their research one bc cheaper than the Koraths shortened line of normal research tech which stops at research academies. Both research lines are inferior to most other races though.

The Drengin also get an extra hull strengthening tech that gives a +10% hp, which sounds sweet until you realize the Korath already have an extra 10% bonus on hp as an inherent racial bonus. I don't know how efffective the extra hp ship modules are yet. Plus the Korath get a 25% military production inherent bonus as well, while the Drengin just get an 10% soldiering bonus to compensate.

The super abilites also come into play, most people find the spore ships and colonization of toxic worlds to be a better tech than the dominators except on really small maps.

The Drengin also seem to get a 5% social production bonus off of xeno slavery which the Korath doesn't mention even though they have the same tech. I'm not to sure if this is a mistake or not though since I figure the same tech should give same bonuses in the game.


So altogether I'd say the Korath simply have more options throughout the game than the Drengin as it now stands. The Korath have more ways to manufacture, more people and/or taxes due to higher morale, a serious chance to do culture flips with dark influence, can expand farther with toxic adaption and higher military production, and can always spore an entrenched enemy planet.

The Drengin get better economics buildings and slightly cheaper labs and have an easier time fighting and conquering an opponent really early in the game due to his super ability compared to Korath.

I'd say the Drengin could use a minor boost somewhere, but I think they are still better off than the Iconians who need some serious economic help.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

The Drengin get a seperate line of slave research which makes their research one bc cheaper than the Koraths shortened line of normal research tech which stops at research academies. Both research lines are inferior to most other races though.
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Hmm... if the Korath align as Neutral, do they get NLCs?
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top


Hmm... if the Korath align as Neutral, do they get NLCs?
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Yes, I've used them myself. Ironically, at least three of the four evil races (Drengin, Korath and Korx) usually have more to gain by becoming neutral than they do by staying evil.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'd say the Drengin could use a minor boost somewhere, but I think they are still better off than the Iconians who need some serious economic help.
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The Iconians are fine. Its the Yor that really needs the help. The Iconians can place multiple economics structures on their planets, as well as morale structures. The Yor are stuck with their one per planet "Efficiency Center"s, and "Maintenance Grid"s.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I wonder if it would be sensible to link the Drengin super ability to researched hull sizes, or to another tech tree branch entirely, allowing you to get larger ships as reinforcements.

So many other aspects of that strike me as a pain to balance - weapons, defense, number of ships - but just a thought.

Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I honestly think the ships should stay at small size. Small size ships are perfectly useful in a pinch and I don't think it would be wise to open the can of worms that would be balancing getting instant Large ships.

All I personally ask for is that you be able to pick where they spawn (Of course, only in your own influence territory). The whole "fifty billion Super Dominator ships" in the late game when you declare war on someone is annoying, yeah, but I don't mind it too much. The logistics problems are annoying, and yeah it'd be nice if they scaled their technology to match your own, but at least it provides me the choice of either utilizing a huge number of crappy ships, so I can have some stormtroopers, so to speak, to throw at the enemy, or selling a good 3/4ths of them so I can afford to upgrade the rest to be fairly formidable fighters.

Being able to pick where they spawn is the real thing I want, though. I mean, in the late game when I've begun conquest in an area of the galaxy far from my homeworld, I couldn't even use those ships in battle if I wanted to, simply because they spawn so far away from the front lines that waiting 30+ turns just for them to get in my general area isn't worth it. I might as well sell them all and buy a few ships from starports near the front lines.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm going to have to add something I missed earlier as a difference between the Drengin and Korath. The Korath are missing the planetary defense techs. That means the Drengin actually have +40 soldiering bonus on the Korath as opposed to just a +10. The Drath still beat the Drengin out by a +5 soldiering bonus when both races fully tech out, but considering that the Drath are running at a -30 penalty to population compared to the Drengin, that still makes the Drengin the best race to use for invasions in the game.

That certainly does alot to even out the power between the Drengin and Korath, although the point of the Korath having quite a bit more flexibility in the game still applies here.
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh ye GODS, I just finished one of my hardest games ever as the Yor. I'm really, really hoping those guys are just unfinished, because, seriously, they're a complete mess. I ended up just trying to keep peace with the other super-power civs until I managed to complete a technology victory.

To be brief, here are the main problems with them:

Their Morale does not scale well at all. Since the building that increases their Morale also increases their food count, they almost invariably have some robot out there going hungry (Weird that they still call it "Food Production" instead of, I don't know, anything else lol) and bringing an entire planet's morale down with him. The Yor either need a one or two techs that give a civ-wide morale bonus (And I suggest this because I don't want them to lose their current flavor), or their, uh, once-per-planet-Morale-building-thingamajig, (I think it's called the Maintenance Center) needs a tech branch where it can be improved. As neat as it is to build a +25% (Or 20%, I can't remember) Morale building with no upkeep at the beginning of the game, the fact that it doesn't scale at all means that the Yor get ripped off in the mid to end game.

They NEED some kind of boost to their economy. A tech line that boosts the economy civ wide by +10% just doesn't cut it when other races get access to Galatic Stock Exchanges. The best I can figure to do here is to make the Economy Improvement tech tree the Yor have upgrade their Efficiency Center in addition to the boosts it gives to their Economy.

They should have an expanded Soldiering tech tree. Currently, all they get as far as invasion tactics go are the Gas the Planet thing and the Information Warfare thing. Either their Terror Drone techs should unlock advanced invasion tactics, or they should get access to Terror Drones on top of the other race's Soldiering techs, like Steller Troopers or whatever it's called. Also: WHERE IS PLANETARY DEFENSE? o.O

Those are the main things I can gleam from one game. They definitely need some major help, because they really can't cut it against some of the other races, I think.

Anywho, time to get a game going as the Korath!
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes! My game with the Yor only picked up after I built the Mind Control Center for +100% economy, and picked up a +40% morale building (virtual reality?) from another race, which I used to replace all the maintenance centers. The MCs are +20%.

I agree with everything you've said here - they need more invasion tactics, and why don't they have mini-robots specifically?

I'd love to see the maintenance centers have researchable upgrades. I was really missing that. Also, the Efficiency thing might need one or two additional upgrades.

And the, er, one-per-planet research building that gives 12 TPs? It's outclassed by the upgradeable research buildings, eventually. It's nice early on, since it's a flat boost and not a percentage, but that just means it gets phased out.

And of course, the missing (but to be addressed, yay) mining and economic starbase modules. Hopefully influence modules as well.

Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh, right, and just because I forgot to post this last night. My game as the Yor was played with the following game settings:

Habitable planets: Common
Number of planets: Common
Number of stars: Occasional
Star density: Random
Anomalies: Rare (Please give me a way to turn them off. ::()
Asteroids: Abundant
Minor races: None
Tech rate: Normal
Map size: Large
Victory conditions: All on
Tech trading: Disabled
Blind exploration: On
Mega events: Off
Super Abilities: On
Surrenders: Allowed

Computer players: Arcean, Kyrnn, Drath, Korx and Iconians. Difficulty was Painful.

My starting ability bonuses: Economics +10%, Social Production +30%, Military Production +70%, Repair +40%, Soldiering +60%, Loyalty +100%, Miniaturization +10%.
Political Party: Industrialists.


And the, er, one-per-planet research building that gives 12 TPs? It's outclassed by the upgradeable research buildings, eventually. It's nice early on, since it's a flat boost and not a percentage, but that just means it gets phased out.
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Yeah, but then again not all racial buildings are meant to follow you into the endgame. It'd be cool if you could upgrade it, but I think the one thing the Yor are good at is research. They get access to Discovery Spheres and everything ::) It's just their econ that needs a lot of work, because it's REALLY hard for their fragile economy to handle expensive research.

By the way, I just realized that poor morale is listed as one of the Yor's weaknesses in that little quick-info menu you see on the screen where you select your computer opponents. So, assuming that their horrible morale problems are truly developer intent at work here, all I can say is that Stardock needs to find a way to boost the hell out of their economy. I also realized that they don't have the techs for the advanced forms of governments, like Democracy and Star Federation and all that. I can understand that not all races are meant to have things like that in an attempt to further differentiate them, but if they're not going to get access to such incredibly powerful economy-boosting techs, they need to make up for it somewhere else. The only thing I can think of to suggest is a greatly expanded economy tree that will allow them to not only boost their Efficiency Center, but also their civ-wide econ bonus.

I would also like to re-emphasize that they need an expanded soldiering tech tree enabling them to get some of the most powerful soldiers in the game when it's completely researched, because their soldiers in the late game don't cut it too well, and with poor morale to constantly fight against it's not like they're rolling in civilians. 100% morale on a planet is really a luxury that the Yor seldom have access to. This practically necessitates a Recruiting Center on every single planet ::/ In the late game, even with two fully upgraded morale-harvesting starbases, my Yor civ was around 55% approval rating with a something like 65%+ tax rate in the late game. Unfortunately I can't double check because I've already saved over the games, but I'm sure anyone who's played the Yor into the late game knows what I'm talking about ::(

And yeah, I completely forgot about the mining and economic starbase modules. The influence modules would be nice, but, really, the Yor backstory would kind of preclude them from wanting to accept meat-bags into their society ::P So I can understand if those are left out.