Good, then I have no reason to continue to allow you post here.

Mom, Dad, don't fight! Look what I can do! Look at me! I'm dancing! Im dancing for you! Look!

Ummm i stand with Stardock on this, however refusing to put up any more updates because a small percentage of posters complained about 1.8 is at best a childish response and at worst a complete over response to a subject that was really beneath you in the first place.
We all respect that you love the games you create and do not like it when people flame you with no justification, however jumping up and down and stomping your feet over it, which is how your response reads to me, really just adds more fuel to the proverbial fire. All that was required, if at all, was a post stating your displeasure in the way you and your company have been portrayed in this thread and maybe a brief explanation on what was changed and why.
Please dont lower yourself down to the level of those on here who would start a flame war and dont punish those of us who have not had anything bad to say about the new updates and fully understand that even you guys make mistakes now and again with updates (yes i know its hard to believe people but it does happen )

I vote for a "scorched earth" policy on this thread. It stopped being entirely relevant when 1.8a was released, it can't go anywhere good from here, and it's one more response from Brad away from being an article on Gamespot.

Seriously, bury it. Me and a couple other of the guys will go dig a hole out in the desert for it. Just looking out for you.

To be clear: We will still be doing more updates, but from here on out, we have to focus on Twilight of the Arnor so additional updates will have to wait.

If you think the decision is made out of a moment of pique, reconsider.  The rationale to do a 1.8B to satisfy a tiny tiny number of vocal users has no logical rationale. It was considered purely out of a desire to satisfy that tiny group even though it would have meant working even more hours during crunch time on a major new expansion beta.   The attitude in this thread shows that it doesn't make sense to make that kind of sacrifice because too many of those users will never be satisfied with anything we do.

I would invite that.  PC gamers have choices in the companies whose games they want to buy.  I hear a lot of complaints on forums and such about large game publishers like EA or Microsoft.  But the alternative to them are "indies" like Stardock which have their own quirks - we can make development decisions simply because we want to. 

More particularly, an inteview with Gamespot on this issue would go something like this:

"GS: What led Stardock to its decision to reduce the number of free updates it did for its games?"

"BW: The main problem with the free updates is that an increasing number of players stopped seeing these updates as a bonus but instead as an entitlement and a sign that the original game was 'buggy'.  We realized that there is a threshold after which free updates are no longer appreciated and merely give ammo for critics to argue that our games are 'buggy' instead of simply being strongly supported by the developer."

I think 1.8 makes a strong case that we have past the threshold on this. That every update results in a constiuency complaining about the changes and another constituency seeing this as evidence that our game was "buggy".  The threshold being that those two constituencies now exceed the number of people who actually enjoy these updates. 

It makes more sense to concentrate on new things.

I just read this thread.. I agree it should have stopped with the original post and maybe a few others and of course a response from SD.

I've been playing computer games for 25 years+. Of all I've played, I'm not saying GC is the best but as far as a company backing it and really trying hard to please it's gamers, Stardock by far has outdone anyone. ALL games have bugs and issues. NO game can possibly satisfy EVERYONE.. Bottom line for just about every game out there is $$$. I've always had the opinion that here the Bottom line is about the product and those that use it, which in turn becomes $$$... These are companies I enjoy giving my hard earned money too and will continue to support. This is a great game, But it's the support behind it that makes it great.

I like most don't have free money to dish out for alot of expansions and patches etc.. This is one thing that has kept me here. Not to mention I look forward to the updates, patches, fixes.. The bugs to me sometimes are interesting and for the most part any problem i've had, SD most of the time fixes it in the next patch or offers a solution to try, or here in the forums theres generally an answer. Rarely do I post a problem, most of the time someone's already done it and 99% I read SD is already looking into it. The service here I have never seen in any other game ever.

To the one's that constantly complain, never satisfied, etc.. Stop playing. I agree go elsewhere. Find another game to play. Obviously GC isn't for you. Really as far as I'm concerned those that have forced the hand of SD should be banned from here. Send them to another company to bash.

I like the majority here I believe, am a VERY satisfied customer. I greatly appreciate all that is done to make the game, and the company top notch. Again I look forward to the updates (bugs and all). NO software, game etc is perfect, never will be, accept it. There are parts of the game i'd like see changed but it doesn't affect the overall play to me. Really just personal preferences..

So now I emplore SD to NOT follow through with the idea of stopping great service to your true supporters and to the game itself. Stand your ground yes, I'm all for it, but keep in mind the statements of the constant whiners does not reflect the opinion of the population as a whole.

Regardless I will continue to support this game. If it's going to cost more, well unfortunately that will force me to pick and choose when I can buy, kids do like to eat.. Not to mention the kids love this game too.

Sincerely,

VERY SATISFIED

this thread is becomming an argument on customer service, as i'm reading it. i almost posted something to the effect of my following message yesterday, and now i feel it's a bit more warranted.

Brad, i'd just like to say that your behavior in this thread has fostered even more trust in SD on my part. having worked more than my fair share of customer service jobs, i know how horrible it is to be faced with an angry, immature customer who you've got to please for fear of your next paycheck. being the CEO i'm sure that's not as relevant a fear for you particularly, but it's good to see a rep stand up and say something. i'm sick of the common practice among consumers, that purchasing a product is also somehow purchasing a personal verbal punching bag.

personally, i despise it when employees act towards me without a personality; the corporate, McDonald's flavor of saccharine pleasentness is an absolute turn-off. knowing that i'm interacting with an actual person - bad days, temper and all - is much more reassuring, especially when it's matched by quality products.

and just for my own two cents' worth, i haven't played any PC games except GC2 since it came out. i'm looking forward to giving Sins a try (only a 'try' because, while i'm sure it'll be a great game, i'm not sure it'll be a great game for me), and i've tried to grab what tidbits about your upcomming fantasy game i can - but the real point is, i've been beyond satisfied with GC2. i've been truly impressed and enthused on a consistent basis. i'm not asking you to reconsider any decisions by any means. i'm only offering some moral support. you're right, that most of your GC2 customers are happy and satisfied, and i hope the one or two loud-mouth, spoiled brats of consumers you're bound to attract as a quality game-maker won't form a wet blanket on your own enthusiasm for too long.

should i ever find myself in Michigan, i'm likely to seek employment at SD - not because i'm a particularly skilled programer by any means - i have no idea what i could offer you, honestly - but i'd rather offer my services to an employer and company i believe in, not to mention by business.

cheers,
nik

I agree. Lock the thread. It's far off topic, now, and is just becoming a p*ssing contest. If I find any more relevant information, I'll email it in.

This is an instructive thread because it shows the predictable degeneration of the hard core part of the community.

I'm an avid WoW player and it's the same thing there. Blizzard will work tirelessly to satisfy users but the hardest of the hard core are never satisfied and always end up taking for granted the work others are doing on their behalf.

And Galciv isn't like WoW. It has no monthly subscription. People paid 40 bucks and got a fantastic game with unrivaled support. But you still end up with people who will shit on stardock not realizing that stardock can pull the plug any time they want.

Anybody who thinks that their 40 bucks somehow entitles them to what was put into this 1.8 version is delusional.

If someone is doing you a favor you should take extra care in how you craft a suggestion or give feedback. That's a lesson some folks here missed.

Dear Frogboy - Yes Grasshopper, we have all learned a valuable lesson. Seeking perfection is admirable, expecting to attain it, foolish. Live long and prosper.

I wouldn't post this before since it would seem a little selfish but now you posted it I have to agree with you 100%. For me 18a is good enough for now as I'm looking forward to the new expansion. If I understand you right Twilight of the Arnor will handle more stars and planets especially with the new super huge maps which should make any fan happy.

this is all that was needed for every one to shut up and let it all rest!!!!

No we had to instead get into a p*ssing contest that we had no chance to win

Brad your team does a bang up Job !!! Don`t let the ones that get to involve with OMG

they ruin it will never be the same !!! well it`ll never be the same after EACH FREE

UPDATE !!!! And because the quote i quoted was not good enough !!! Good!!!if ther is

never another up date for DA sever them right!!! But for the rest of us ...well have to

wait and hope that there will be more updates.


Thanks for all your work on all your Products


Nasty

Mr. Nasty, your effulgence of exclamatory punctuation does you no credit; although, in general, your loyalty to Stardock is not misplaced, it is irrationally expressed. That we're getting no more bug fixes for six months or however long it takes to release the new expansion is a significant issue. The only thing that softens that blow is Stardock's exceptional track record of backporting fixes to benefit their entire customer base, even the ones who choose not to buy the new expansions.

Would you perhaps be talking about using procedural texturing? That's kind of what it sounds like, and if so would that make galciv2 the first major game to use it?

I think that Stardock would benefit from writing a tool that generates galaxies so that they can datamine the results. Generate a thousand galaxies of each size type and collect data on star counts, planetary quality and extreme planetary environment types, with special emphasis on the nine-sector area around the player's home planet and extrapolating memory usage of the generated galaxies. That would nail down exactly what is happening here.

first of all to frogboy I'm sorry if any of my comments on my post were beyond acceptable. I did not mean anything negative toward you or anyone else exept for galla.... who was insulting to you. My origional post was bringing up a change that I didn't see in the change log about the habitable planets in v1.8 if that was by design in nature or a bug. You clearly answered this by releasing v1.8a with-in 24hrs. which I appreciate. The only reason I continued to reply to the replies that I got on this posting is because of this comment by you

Until today I thought that you might still be coming out with a v1.8b patch if it was deemed nessacary. As it seems now that will not be an option somewhat because of the negative content in this thread and mainly because of the TA beta to start beta later in this week. by request I would like to request to you that you eliminate and burry this post as others have recomended so that we can all forget this horrible ordeal and move on. As for the origional post it has only a minor relevance now since v1.8a was released and therefore shouldn't be a major nessesity for this to go on.

Again I sincerly appologize for any hard feelings this post has brought up and great work on this game and its expansions.

Brad, they way you handled those who sought to tarnish yourself and the company is exactly the way i would have, just with less swearing.. (Though i would have got a nice little kick in the backside from Kryo i might add)

Well done mate. Focus on TA and address this issue later.

Just remember the majority of users and posters do not feel the same as those who went beyond expression and into insulting you.

Continue as you normally do please mate, most of us are more than happy with that.

Continued updates and a second expansion...geez not a bad bloody deal i'd say....

Edit - To those who contributed to this mess and have apologized please don't take my post as a slight toward you. Doing wrong and then apologizing for it is a mature and responsable attitude. Those who did not...well........

I'm sad to see Brad so angry about the few insanely vocal idiots. I respect his desire to work exclusively on the expansion, but it is unfortunate that he was so affected by the few who were so angry even after 1.8a popped up.

I still like the passion, though. Burn the heretics who would take for granted your free updates! Hehe.

Frogboy, I'll just be happy when you realize you're letting the whiners win by getting drawn into their pitiful argument. Not saying you should work yourself to death and provide more updates - by all means, take a f*cking break man, you and your team have earned it! Just saying it's better to just let them rant, give a halfway polite "F*** YOU" response one time, and not look back. They don't deserve this much of your time and effort.

And for those of you who are afraid of "no more bug fixes".... I am willing to bet if a REAL BUG IS DISCOVERED ONE DAY, it'll get fixed. Like it did with 1.8a. I think Frogboy is merely stating he's not going to spend time on new tweaks/balances/features. And damn right! I'm sad to see it happen, but they all deserve the break.

EDIT: by "halfway polite" I don't mean to imply that Brad should say something friendly and dismissive. I just mean don't actually post a two-word "F*** YOU" response. Be passionate, be angry, but only state your position once and then let the rest of us back you up. There are more raving fans here than whiners as far as I can see. We got your back, man.

Well Said

Actually, the problem right now is that we ARE using procedural texturing    And with the resulting textures being artistically sub-par, but using up TONS of memory, we're working on more attractive/less bulky ways of generating planets.

So yeah, we're probably one of the first major games to rely so heavilly on it, as well as the first to realize what a pig they are and rip 'em out     (at least that's our current plan...we'll see what get's implemented in the end).

I would just like to say that I like everything about 1.8.

I think people are forgetting that these updates are a bonus. They are aimed to improve the game than merely just to fix bugs. Unfortunately there are always a group of people who will complain about anything.

The amount of work Stardock puts into this game is amazing. I don't know any developer out there that puts more work into a game, or interacts with the community more than them. It pains me to see some of the posts in this topic and I'm glad they we're firmly responded to by the team at Stardock.

Well I just would like to add a word here. It is clear how forum threads can quickly degenerate, and I certainly can understand that Frogboy might have taken some of the comments personnaly, or even as aggressions.

I have not yet installed 1.8, I'm waiting to finish a game then I'll get it.

I think it is a pity (but understandable) that Frogboy reacted the way he did but some of the posts here were really arrogant and flaming. But I don't blame Frogboy: I've been here since march 2003, just before galciv release, and I must say, I've never had a problem or reason to be disatisfied with this company.

I think most of the problem in this thread is due to the fact that many people don't realise that all these updates are a curtasy of stardock. This was thouroughly explained before (in galciv days), for the "oldtimers" in here. But some of the posters that came to the game later on, they seem to see the updates just as patches, which most of the time they are not: they constantly renew the game, not just correct bugs.

And everyone (or almost) should agree that most games out there get one or two patches and then that's it. And they just correct bugs. Here there are lots of stuff added, for which stardock is not paid, since you already paid for the game. Although it might have needed a patch or two out of the box (i'm not saying it is tha case, I don't remember, so my guess is not) all that has come since then was a bonus. People should realise that. And have some patience and moderation when criticizing: specially since they can go back to an earlier version until the problem is corrected.

Finally, people posting these critics should be aware that Frogboy comes here and takes the time to read the forums. How many other companies do that? And to reply. How many do THAT ? And he even takes into account the comments people make.
The corolary of that is that well, people's comments and critics and some times attacks go straight to the CEO ears, not some low level costumer service employee in charge of the forums. And while driving that person mad may have no consequences (although being a bad thing to do), driving the CEO of the company mad can have serious consequences for all the community. Having him here is a privilege for all of us, and we should see it as such.

So I do hope Brad's reaction was just a normal venting, brought about by the tone of some of the posts here. As someone said someday/somewhere, you shouldn't take it personnaly, the problem being that when you are telling yourself that, it usually means you already took it very much personnaly...

Last word to say, like many others here have said already, that stardock service has no equal that I know of. A few people who attacks it without knowing it shouldn't be considered as representative of the community, even thought they do like to speak as if they were doing it for all of us ; which they don't.

It is my first post in a very long time, but I felt the need to distanciate myself from some of the posts here and also, let stardock know that I believe many people would agree with me. Specially those who have been here the longest.

Take Care People.

I'm just stunned as usual with some of the comments that are made on here. It seems to go in cycles...with Brad terminating the cycles. I read the posts about the terrible effect of 1.8 at work on Friday. Then on Saturday, I loaded up 1.8-A and smiled to myself that they had already addressed it. I played all weekend and enjoyed it. It was different to be sure...but the whole concept of the game is different - its a strategy game with no set required number of planets to play. If 1.8a was released months ago as DA.....it would be celebrated as a great game. Only because the original release afforded the abundance of planets did users become accustomed to that style of play. If it never existed, it would not have been perceived as taken away and the styles-strategies necessary to succeed with the reduced numbers would have been invented then, and not now.

To act as if the game was destroyed because of this change is childish and immature. It just requires modification to your game style. If that destroys the game, you didn't get it to start with.

I just feel bad inside....Cari so sincerely feels for the game. She is one of us with the keys to make it better. To read this stuff must really hurt, because it is obviously out of caring that she does what she does. Kyro seems to love the genre...he diligently watches the boards for areas he can help and tutor. And Brad tinkers with the game to improve it. And some immature nutballs run their mouths with no regard at all for the community, the new users and the devs. This is a really great game with really great support and most of the changes, if not all the changes are generated from user requests....its a beautiful thing....please don't piss in my garden anymore.....if you cant be nice go on another site....

One problem with the current version of the game is that we can't go back to one of the previous betas and wait until things become more to our liking because the archive system has been overwriting version archive files since June 2007 instead of creating new ones (as I reported in another thread).

wow, I and everyone else should just shut up right now. I don't even work for 2 hours a day, honestly (even though I sit in the office for 8 lol)

Am I the only here who would never be able to stand gigantic maps? Are you guys moaning because now there are 300 planets instead of 400? I would HATE having to manage 400 planets. God, it would be so tedious.... ordering 400 new starships to the frey when trying to take over the galaxy every few turns... Screw that.

I play on medium maps because I actually like a game to conclude in less than a month.......

I find that even on medium maps, the game can get really tedious when conquering the galaxy...