Exactly my thought! I suppose I should've elaborated the idea sooner though. Looks like marshall beat me to it.    Saved me alot of typing.

Since checking back through these seemingly endless discussions is time consuming, I'll just highlight the points which have been agreed on and are to be implemented. Just to maintain clarity.

1) The average score from each team is calculated. And the highest average score is given bonus points. (how many is still in debate, correct?)

2) The combined years of each team's games are counted and the team with the least cumalative years gets bonus points.

3) Resignation and defeat penalties are anulled. (I dont agree with resignation though since players have the option of informing us that they cannot make the deadline because of real life, both options have no penalty)

I think thats about it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hmmm, this much debate and only 2 points we have agreed on.   

Ok, since its almost the third round and Darth still hasn't returned. I think for next round we have multiple victory conditions.
If it isn't I'm gonna get you, neilo!  Just kidding.

I hate to sound power-hungry(do I?) but I'll take the post if no one from my team has any objections.

I agree to some extant, that's one reason for cutting down the bonus from 3, 2 and 1 for 1st, 2nd and 3rd to 1 point each. Also as you said we can try it and see. We've changed scoring rules so far there's no reason to assume that we have to stick with something it's clear people don't like.

However, this is a *Metaverse* League and so participation in the MV is assumed. I will agree that the MV focuses *only* on score and that's not the only thing that's important. I agree that the purpose of the League is not necessarily to focus *only* on score but I also believe that score is one legitimate measure of a game. I can understand some folks objection to the MV's exclusive focus on score but besides speed of game what other quantifiable measure do you suggest on which to rank games?

If the only point is participation then give everyone 2 points for win, lose or draw and all rounds end up in a complete tie. Where is the motivation to improve in this scenario? I agree that both score and speed are imperfect measures of peoples skill level in the game but they're the only measures I know of. I'd be happy to include any other quantifiable measures that can reasonably be thought of. The purpose of bonuses is to adjust for evidence of skill that does not necessarily show up in the score. I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but if you really believe that score is totally meaningless then perhaps you shouldn't be in the Metaverse at all let alone a Metaverse League.


Fine with me.

Fine by me TP.

The other stuff is immaterial to me. Bonuses are fine to have or not to have. The non-submittal penalty is a real sticking point with me, though.

The only people it punishes are those who stay in the league. It has no effect of those who leave. It just seems to be a counterproductive idea.

I'll remain vehemently opposed to this one thing and will continue to speak out against it. I will abide by the decision of the commissioner, but that doesn't mean I'll do it in silence.

I too am opposed to the nonsubmittal penalty, if the team average score is what is being used. Dividing four scores by five players to get the average is a serious setback all by itself. Adding the penalty is just beating a dead Torian at that point.

Tend to agree. They must be evil in some way.

Form a lynch mob, the non submittal penalty must be hung! I dont really care for it either. On to another subject.

Quote from above, "copy and paste"-style, because Ive no clue how to put it in the pretty grey box:

If the only point is participation then give everyone 2 points for win, lose or draw and all rounds end up in a complete tie. Where is the motivation to improve in this scenario? I agree that both score and speed are imperfect measures of peoples skill level in the game but they're the only measures I know of. I'd be happy to include any other quantifiable measures that can reasonably be thought of. The purpose of bonuses is to adjust for evidence of skill that does not necessarily show up in the score. I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but if you really believe that score is totally meaningless then perhaps you shouldn't be in the Metaverse at all let alone a Metaverse League.

End quote...


As for the bonus points, I was simply pointing out to the fact that its a double bonus. I don't focus solely on scoring and I dont believe I should leave this league or the Metaverse. Its pretty obvious from my posted games I dont worry much about score.
What exactly do you feel the scoring should be? I always see you play Devil's Advocate and shoot down other suggestions, but never clearly state your own. I could be wrong, please show me I am.

The mob has spoken. Non-submital penalty is gone, unless there is an equally loud outcry for it to remain.

Again i am starting to be lost in the midst of suggestions at where we are with scoring and bonus points. The 14 hour shifts i have been working for the last week are getting to me.

New proposal,

Team Bonus

Fastest team game time (average) 2 BP
2nd fastest team game time (average) 1 BP

Highest team score (average) 2 BP
2nd highest team score (average) 1 BP

Individual Bonus

2 and 3 year game time 2 points.

4 and 5 year game time 1 point.

1st, 2nd and 3rd highest scoring games 1 point each.

What do you think of that guys?

No penalty's.

Since decisions made are based on voting I'll vote to keep the no-show penalty. Maybe mumble will support me on this.



Fastest cumalative game time not average. I'm still standing by this.



hmmmm.......  
It does have a certain ring to it. But scoring games should be 2 points(for first) and 1 points(for second and third).

Thats my 0.02$.

This sounds good to me.

I prefer the average method because it's fairer than going with a cumulative total. Those who have a 5 member team would be at a disadvantage for speed unless someone didn't submit a game. Not the best thing to encourage, IMO.

Motti is with me.  


One thing I didn't get on the high score average bit: Why divide by 5 when only 4 players' submittions count. This would put the 5 player teams at disadvantage.

Another thing I dont get: IMHO means ?

Not on the penalty issue. I'm against it. Sorry.   



Yes, that would be unfair, but isn't an average either. An average would be only among the submissions. A 5 member team with 4 submissions wouls be averaged among the 4 submissions. To do otherwise makes no sense.

Has someone suggested that we divide 4 sumbissions by 5? If so, I haven't seen it. Then again, there are too many words to read and I don't have that kind of time.



In My Humble Opinion. I prefer IMO for In My Opinion.

IMHO can also be In My Honest Opinion.

There are some kinks to work out, of course. With the team time and team score bonuses, would only 'wins in the correct manner' count, and so on. I had some comments that made sense in my head, but they disappeared somehow. I blame this uncommon cold I'm afflicted with.

On other things, what if the random settings gave something that let a player win in less than 2 years? Also, what about tie-breakers in the unlikely event of equal scores among the top 3 scorers?

Might edit this post if my theories regarding team bonuses return to me.

As a starter, I think I clearly stated my own suggestions in Reply #1 of this thread.

In reply #6 of this thread I simply mentioned that I didn't care for the idea of using the normal empire ranking system as method of scoring for the MVL. I also supported Marshall's idea of using averages to avoid the problems with different sized teams. I also expressed my preference for the existence of many small bonuses versus fewer but larger bonuses. This has been a constant theme in all of my replies in this thread as well as some of the other threads as well.

Reply #23 was basically an aside related to getting some front page forum support for the league as well as a request for some support for the MVL from Kryo.

In reply #28 I restated my opinion about many small bonuses and expressed a dislike of artifical limitations on the number of bonus points any one player could receive. If I'm not mistaken I will have earned the most bonus points of any player for the first two rounds so my expression of support of reducing the 1st place bonus for score and speed from 3 points to 1 point is rather altruistic on my part. I'm not doing any of this to ensure that I always take the top spot, in fact I would expect that an unbiased view of my proposals would tend to imply the opposite. Also in reply #28 I expressed that average team speed should be a team scoring criteria just as average team score should be. Finally I also expressed dislike of giving bonuses for any particular racial choice because the implied disavantage of any race is very subjective.

In Reply #33 I bumped the thread because it had been inactive for almost a week and also suggested changing the start/end date to the 15th instead of the 13th (no big deal one way or the other).

In response to Neilo's (reply #36) summary of the discussion and a proposal of how to continue, my reply #42 merely expressed my opinion about the specific proposals that Neilo was essentially asking for people to vote on.

In reply #46 I mentioned that the idea of 4 or 5 on a team was not really relavent to the discussion about the scoring rules and suggested that such a discussion could occur once we get to the point of having to make such a decision. I also yet again expressed my preference to avoid adding rules and exceptions to rules that are involved by breaking ties and merely suggested that ties be treated equally in all cases. I also reminded folks about previous discussions we had involving ties where it was essentially agreed to try it with ties broken by submission date (which is what we used this round) and leaving ties equal. Since we have already tried it one way I was suggesting that we should at least try leaving ties unbroken before we condemn this method out of hand. I also (yet again) expressed my opinion that non-submittal was the worst thing that anyone could do because besides letting your own teammates down it undermines the existance of the league.

In Reply #48 I responded directly to Neilo's questions about my stance on leaving ties unbroken. I also suggested the potential of using submission date (to the league not the MV) as a separate bonus category instead of using MV submission date as the tiebreak criteria for game speed.

In reply #52 I responded to your proposal of elimination of individual bonuses as essentially duplication of the team bonuses. I merely pointed out that I had already supported the reduction of individual bonuses but that I didn't support their elimination. I also addressed the point you made about "just maxxing out points like the metaverse".

It was this response that you apparently took offense to. My precise quote was "I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but if you really believe that score is totally meaningless then perhaps you shouldn't be in the Metaverse at all let alone a Metaverse League".

Firstly I want to highlight that I prefaced this with "I'm not suggesting that this is the case". Secondly my point was that IF you think score is meaningless THEN ...

I was by no way suggesting that you should leave the MV or the League and that is certainly not my desire. I also agree that the score should not be the *only* focus of the MV and the League but I was pointing out that score should be *part* of the focus of the MV and the League.

I could go on almost endlessly, pointing out the positive suggestions I've made in the other 4 or 5 threads related to this league as well as point out the positive contributions I've made to the formation of this league to begin with but I hope I've pointed out enough to make my point.

Again I want to repeat I have no desire to see you, or anyone else for that matter, leave the MV or the League. If anything I have put far more effort than anyone else on these forums promoting the advancement of everything related to the MV for close to a year now. The actual point of the post that apparently offended you was, yes I agree that the score is not *everything* but I do believe that the score does have some meaning.

There certainly are people that believe that score *does* mean absolutely nothing. I have no issue with folks that believe that way, but at the same time everyone I know that truly feels that way does not participate in the MV. I'll say it yet again, IF you truly believe that the score of your game means absolutely nothing THEN you really don't belong in the MV. After all what is the MV but a glorified list of high scores. I feel this is a perfectly legitimate thing to say and is still consistent with wanting to encourage people to join and play the MV as well as join and play the MVL. I see no dichotomy in this opinion nor do I see it as one that anyone should take offense from, regardless of their opinion about game score.

I vote yes. Sounds like a good enough working model for me.

In response to some of the other things: I prefer the averaging method. A team of 5 should consider add all 5 times/scores and divide by 5. A team of 4 should do the same for 4. Admittedly, the team of 4 might have a slight advantage in that there is a lower chance that someone will not submit and screw the team, but I think it is the most fair method overall.

One thing that was not mentioned in the repost was start times. Don't think there was much debate.. I assume we're moving to the 15th as a start time/end time?

On a fine point, I do think that 5 years might be a tad long.. but can always try it and see. If we have 13 people submit a 4/5 year game for the bonus, then we can adjust it.

Lets get this rockin... I'm eager to start the new round

Vilgan

This addressed the non-submittal penalty as well as the point of using averages which apparently was TP_Scot's question.

The point of using averages is that it evens the playing field between teams of different sizes as well as provides a method for the 5th players score to be legitimately used and not simply discarding someones score because it was the lowest (or slowest).

The point about dividing 4 scores by 5 only applies to a 5 man team where one player doesn't submit a game. In that case since all 5 players games count (the divide by part) but one player didn't submit (hence only 4 scores) that's what results in 4 divided by 5.

In a similar manner if someone on a 4 player team didn't submit a game then there would be 3 scores divided by 4 players. However, the normal course of events when everyone submits a game is 4 games divided by 4 or 5 games divide by 5.

On the non-submittal penalty, while I still believe non-submittal is the worst thing possible, there does appear to be sufficient support for the removal of this penalty so by all means let's get rid of it. After all, like all of these rules we're discussing, we could possibly revisit this if non-submittal becomes a prevalent problem.

Righto   

Mumble, as reply no#64 clearly states the immense detail in which you look into things I must ask,

Are you archiving this thread???

Also, lets get rid of the discrepency of who did what. Since your the head of the MVC and a Ambassador of Galciv2, it clearly says that you contributed alot to the game and the MV system. And we(or me atleast) acknowledge that.

I am now clearly stating, lets not delay the beginning of Round 3. Round 3 will start on the 15th or 16th at the furthest. Which is tommorow(or day after that). Lets just get all this cleaned up. We have had alot of discussion. Now lets draw what has been decided on and what is uder discussion.

Two days to decide. I think it is confirmed that Round 3 will have multiple victory conditions. If it isn't I'm gonna get you, neilo! And your gonna pay!(in cash)   Just kidding.

The topics in discussion are:

1) The score division of 5 player teams.

2) Average team years or cumalative team years.

3) Ties in game time

4) Tie in team score or individual score

5)


Topics which have been decided on:

1) Date for Round 3 is 15th.(being extended to 16th if the need arises)

2) Resignation and defeat penalties are anulled. (I dont agree with resignation though since players have the option of informing us that they cannot make the deadline because of real life, both options have no penalty)

3) The average score from each team is calculated. And the highest average score is given bonus points. (how many is still in debate, correct?)

4) THE CELESTIAL CRUSADERS RULE!

5) Ditto on No.4!   

6)


As you notice I've left out one space to represent what will be suggested and what will be decided. Try to mention what you are with or against.

Also, since noone on my team has any objection to me taking the empty post of captain of the crusaders. I'm now Captain of my team.

Mumble, can you give me control of our private forums at the core?

-Fire

No, I'm not in any way archiving this thread.

Nor am I looking for any particular acknowledgement for anything.

The entire point of my reply #64 was in response to Piznit's reply #57 which itself was a response to my reply #52. Basically Piznit took something I said as a request for him to leave the MV and MVL when that was really not my intent. However his response to me indicated that I have only played devil's advocate and shot down other peoples suggestions without providing any of my own. I was trying to point out that firstly I have no desire for him to leave the league or the MV and that secondly I have provided my own opinion and made positive suggestions to the league and this thread.

---

As far as your summary of topics decided and those still unresolved I think it's basically accurate. However I think that it's really only the tie issue that's unresolved.

Scoring for 4 and 5 player teams is simply all the scores divided by the number of players. This would be 4 scores divided by 4 or 5 scores divided by 5. The only time this is different is if someone doesn't (unexpectedly) submit a game in which case the number of players stays the same but obviously there will be a score missing. The reason I say unexpectedly is that I assume that if someone announces that they can't play that month then they would be subtracted from the offical count of players on that team. Hopefully this doesn't confuse anyone but using average score allows someone to skip a month in which case you could effectively have only three players on a four player team. This could be an issue in a multiple victory condition situation but otherwise makes things relatively fair between teams of different sizes.

The team speed category clearly needs to be an average just like the team score category otherwise it's unfair to different size teams as well. I think pretty much everyone agreed with both of these concepts. Although as you point out the points for these are still a bit up in the air. Neilo had proposed 2 for 1st and 1 for 2nd for these team bonuses and I think that's a good choice.

Certainly no one has objected to your being Team C captain and yes I can get you assigned as the forum moderator of the Team C forum. However, the powers that you get from this are rather limited so don't let it go to your head.

---

Finally on a more serious note I am a bit concerned about the number of non-submittals for the current round. From your post in the other thread it looks like we have 4 of them this round versus only one last round.

Before we consider the details of who didn't submit and what team they are on, I would like to suggest that we consider eliminating the -2 points team penalty for this round as well. Since this is a change in the middle of the round this would require specific approval from Neilo but I think everyone basically agreed this was a good thing and so many non-submittals would really mess up the scoring for this round.

However, we really do need to address these non-submittals. Four is far too many and is very significant and does jepordize the continued existance of the league. I certainly want to say to anyone that didn't submit for whatever the reason that the league cannot survive if you don't return to the fold so to speak. Hopefully this was just an anomaly and next round we will be back to normal, but we need those that didn't submit this month to submit next month or it may be the last one we have. This has been a definite experiment to try and hold this together. I know a lot of people have looked forward to these games, I know I certainly have. Please folks if you missed this month there will be no onus associated with it, the league needs you, we need you to continue playing. Hopefully with this average thing if one or two people a month happen to miss a game it will be no big deal but we can't lose people just because they happen to not submit a game for whatever the cause.

I dont agree with dropping the penalty for this round. I mean I would agree with dropping the penalty(for this round) but wouldn't agree if it were in the middle of a round.

So if neilo really did drop the penalty I really wouldn't agree. Are we all in agreement?

I think we should drop the penalty for not submitting this round. Some of the people who never submitted had RL get in the way. Somebody should PM them and see if there is a problem. We really need some more players however. As soon as I am able to figure out banners and pics and stuff(computer nerd is coming over one day to help me with all that crap)I will be able to advertise. I look forward to the new round rules(almost highlight of the month  )

I agree with dropping it for this round (even though I just showed up for the end). If the penalty is not dropped, it seems like the teams with 5 members have a significant advantage. Regardless of this, I think the new round should start tomorrow. Lets keep this rolling!

Vilgan

I don't quite follow this logic. I suppose that a 5 player team only loses 1/5th of it's scoring potential versus a 4 man team losing 1/4th of it's scoring potential. However on the other hand assuming that the chance of any one player not submitting a game is equal the 5 man team has a higher chance of having a non-submission. In the end the "expected value" balances out.

Anyway, my concern is not so much that a group of non-submittals will unbalance the score for this month but the concern that this many non-submittals may discourage those that did submitted this month from submitting next month.

I intentionally haven't checked to determine which teams have the non-submittals just so that my opinion won't be biased by that information.

I also agree with Firebringer/Scot that it's not a good idea to change rules in the middle of a round but it's just that there are so many non-submittals this month, on a percentage basis over 20% of players didn't submit a game. In any case this is a question requiring an arbitrary decision from Neilo and whatever he decides is fine with me. I do think we need to try and come up with something to deal with this because as I said before if we have many more months with this many non-submittals I expect that the league won't have long to survive.

A few more thoughts on non-submittals.

Basically we could continue this kind of format without having teams and it would essentially be similar to the tournaments that Wyndstar used to hold. In this case people could chose to participate or not from month to month and it's no real big deal. The fact that a league of individuals without teams wouldn't require a committment to play at any particular time is a strong motivation for doing it that way. I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea, in fact I think it would be good to have something similar to what we currently have with "random" games for individuals.

The downside of this is that you do lose the potential of having a team that can be greater than the sum of it's parts. Also with a team there is motivation for more experienced players to share ideas with less experienced players. Actually forget the more and less experienced part and focus on the fact that players will share information and strategies which increases the probability of improvement. The other thing is that we already do have a league of individuals, it's called the Metaverse.

I think that as soon as you form teams you essentially have to be willing to make a commitment to play because regardless of using averages or not if you don't submit a game you are letting your team down. I guess people need to decide whether or not they enjoy the team format enough to keep it going by making the required commitment.

Another possibility is to perhaps simply have larger teams so that a non-submittal or two spread over the league really doesn't matter. But again that's kind of what we already have in the current Empire system. I think the League arose out of the desire to have teams (or empires) that were somehow balanced so that it was a legitimate to compare teams/empires. In the current empire system what does it mean if one empire is ahead of another if the one that's ahead has 20 active players and the one behind has 2 active players.

If we simply have larger teams that people come and go as they please then this comes down to pretty much the same situation that we have in the current empire system.

I still think the bottom line is that if people desire to have a team structure then they need to commit to play. Certainly an occasional miss of a month with appropriate notice is fine. But to simply come to the end of the month and find that more than 20% of all players didn't submit games is very disconcerting. My fear is that if these kind of percentages persist then the league will gradually decay to nothing and I think that is regretable.   

Wrong. Try again.   



If the rate we have now continues then I dont expect the league to grow at all.

I suppose there is one way I could promote the league: PM Invitations
If neilo wishes to do it himself then thats fine with me too. Hand pick a few people. But of course that would be promoting the league in a downright shameless plug advertisement pop-up sort of way.

But it might be a way for me "to go forth and bring the masses".   

-(Guess what?)

EDIT: I have sent two invites to people I think who would make a worthy contribution to the league and I think I can trust to not be MarcusCardiffy. One has said "I'll think about it" and the other hasnt replied.