Give Us Barabbas

from GalCiv2 Forums
Not quite sure what this topic will actually accomplish but I've been thinking about this for awhile and it seems that perhaps I'm not the only one.

Recently we had a thread where we were accepting nominees for a couple of open positions on the Metaverse Council. I was somewhat surprised to not only have Evil Stormbringer's name suggested but to also see that he had a reasonable amount of support. However, as a banned character it was clearly not appropriate to accept his name in nomination, however I would like to bring up the topic of another chance for Evil Stormbringer for general discussion and see how folks feel about it.

I want to preface this with my take on the how and why people get banned. I also want to state that all of this is merely my own personal opinion.

Starting out on these forums no one knows you and you know no one else and so it's usual that folks start out posting a bit tentatively. Over time people become better known and more comfortable and there is a tendency to "let things hang out" a bit more. Also over time a "forum persona" tends to develop and people just seem to "go with the flow" and simply perpetuate the stereotype.

The other thing is how you tend to perceive others here on the forum. It takes some period of time before you begin to notice specific personalities. I find myself vaguely recognizing someone’s name or avatar long before I begin to start remembering whether I’ve in general agreed or disagreed with them in the past. Over time, impressions are made that categorize folks into people that you like or people that you dislike. Often you can’t even remember specific instances just vague overall generalizations of whether you feel certain folks are being a d*ckhead or whether you feel they’re cool. Of course in other instances there may be very clear instances where direct offense was given and these tend to stick out in your mind. Even in these cases there can be a whole range of mitigating circumstances. Perhaps you just caught them at a bad time. Perhaps you inadvertently pressed all their buttons and to them their response was justified. In any case I’m not trying to justify abuse, I’m just trying to point out that it’s usually not as one sided as it seems to those directly involved. Usually to an unbiased observer these things come down to he said/she said and the matter of who is right and who is wrong just really doesn’t matter.

The bottom line of all this verbiage is that a persons persona is *not* the person and that how anyone feels about anyone else is often more a matter of perception than one of reality.

Still going along here with my interpretation of why people get banned, I think it’s more due to a long term general perception of a particular person’s behavior rather than the result of any specific incident. Of course there always is a "straw that broke the camel’s back" incident that actually "causes" the banning. The conversations that I’ve had with folks that have been banned usually have centered around not understanding why they were banned because similar previous behaviors by themselves or others haven’t resulted in a banning so why should this one. The answer is that at some point the perception of "the powers that be" reaches a tipping point and that’s pretty much the end of it. There’s no argument and no reasoning that can be made. People simply have had enough.

So what is it that I’m trying to accomplish here. I think it’s no secret that I like Evil Stormbringer. I certainly don’t agree with many of the things that he’s said. I certainly don’t try to justify his behavior to those he’s offended. However, even when he’s been an @$$ (and it must be admitted by even his strongest supporters that he can be a major one at times) I’ve always been able to see the person beneath the persona. When pressed or otherwise forced to look at his own behavior with a critical eye I’ve seen him able to laugh at himself. It’s also very clear to me that he loves this game and has the best interest of the community at heart, things that I hope even his fiercest detractors would be forced to admit as well.

I’d like to see Evil Stormbringer be given one last chance. Yes, I know that he’s been given several "final" chances already, but that doesn’t change my opinion. I would hope that those that support him and this idea would respond to this thread and express their support as diplomatically and responsibly as possible. I’d also like to see that even those that he’s offended could perhaps find a little forgiveness in their own heart and respond as well. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Finally, assuming a reasonable response to this thread, I’d like to see Stardock respond to the will of the community, along with a reasonable expectation of better future behavior on his part, and give Evil Stormbringer one more final chance at redemption.
off-topic
46,238 views 44 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I too appreciated Evil Stormbringer's contributions, but I haven't been around all that long to know his/her 'sorted' past in the community.

My impression, in the short time I've been here, is that ES very much enjoys the game and community and wants to be an active participant. I think most of the problems were associated with ES's strong desire for Stardock to give a higher priority to game stability as opposed to more functionality.

In a world full of rediculous "political correctness," ES was rather refreshing.

For what it's worth, I'll second this proposal.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well thought out and nicely said, Mumblefratz.

I'm one for forgiveness and clarity. I haven't been here long enough to have witnessed what happened in Evil StormBringer's case. His being banned was and still is a source of great confusion to me.

Perhaps Evil Stormbringer and those who were offended enough to have banned him could forgive each other and start over with a clean slate. I'd like to see that kind of maturity reign on what should be a fun gaming forum.

We're a mixture of personalities from all over the world and that'll always cause some friction. We can't agree on everything and won't budge on some of our opinions. Maybe we can keep that in mind when we post and also when we read someone else's post.

I hope to see Evil Stormbringer restored to activity here. I'm sure he'd agree to watch whatever it was that caused all of this to come to such a disappointing head. In this, you have my full support, Mumblefratz.
Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry guys, but ES's fate is not up for debate.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I would also love to see ES back here.

I must admit that my first impressions of him were quite negative. In time, though, I came to believe that his heart was in the right place and that he would tend to apologize if someone convinced him that he had been wrong. Of course, better not to do things requiring apology at all, but some of us are so stubborn that we'll almost never apologize or even really listen to someone pointing out a fault of ours.

He was a very strong personality on these forums, and thus his absence has left quite a hole.

Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry guys, but ES's fate is not up for debate

I think we all understand that. We're not debating, we're pleading.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sorry guys, but ES's fate is not up for debate

I think we all understand that. We're not debating, we're pleading.


True enough. It's not our place to demand or try to apply any kind of logic to it.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I was a bit surprised at the ban.

I felt ES didn't behave very well when he first appeared on the forums and he certainly earned himself a warning or two, but I also felt he had modified and moderated his behavior over time. I don't know what the final incident was that caused him to get banned and I consequently can't judge it. His behavior had changed enough over time that I thought of him as a contributor not a detractor at the time of the ban...

My two cents for the little it's worth (pretty sure it's less than two cents!)
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
No strong feeling for ES one way or the other but I do think actions need to have consequences and if he crossed the line, we should all understand that sometimes the bridge is burned and there is no going back. No one is perfect but we all pay the price for our imperfections and should learn from it and move on.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
True enough. It's not our place to demand or try to apply any kind of logic to it.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. No one is suggesting that what happened was in any way undeserved. There is no logical argument anyone can make that justifies the reinstatement of ES. The only thing that can't be denied are our own personal opinions that these forums are just a little bit less without him and that if Stardock were to show a bit of divine beneficence towards ES it would be viewed by many as a positive thing. I have reason to suspect that such charity by Stardock would not go unappreciated.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I didn't even know he was banned. I guess because i've been staying clear of the political / religious topics. I had had enough of them.

ES had rubbed me the wrtong way just one or twice but never enough for me to dislike him. In fact, i just thought he didnt like me. But then later posts were helpful. I'm sorry he got banned but it seems the decision is final.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
i've been staying clear of the political / religious topics.


Me, too. (For the most part, anyway. I might post a random nonsensical blurb in there when I'm really bored.) I don't think I'd be able to add much there anyway. It's not really appropriate for a gaming forum in my opinion, but can do you do?


if Stardock were to show a bit of divine beneficence towards ES it would be viewed by many as a positive thing. I have reason to suspect that such charity by Stardock would not go unappreciated.


Well said. I already have a pretty high opinion of Stardock. I know my opinion of them and these forums would be even higher if they could see their way to take the road to forgiveness here. I'd also feel like I owed them a debt of gratitude.

I'm not sure what that would be worth to them, since I'm already a paying customer and will continue to buy their products regardless of the outcome on this matter. That's for myself and to give as gifts, so the customer base is a little larger than it would first appear. That won't change.

From what I'm reading in this thread, I came on board after ES had already changed for the better. Missing the early days skews my perception, since I saw nothing that would cause him to be banned.

I can't give any compelling reason to bring him back other than the fact that with him here, the entertainment value of the whole package would be increased. It's just a matter of perspective.

I can only add my voice in pleading that he be allowed to return.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I dont think ES will change, he may start being more careful but I dont think he will really chage.

However, I too would like to see him back, his views here in the off-topic forums and in all of the forums in general are quite refresing to read an comprehend. Even when he is mean he is not mean randomly as in Wheels case(no offense meant to him).

I havent been arround for a long time, so I havent seen anyone bad side completely, in most people cases I could see why they were angry. ES has always been a bit free lipped and hard spoken, but thats why he was a great person to talk, you just had to be a bit more careful.

In my personal opinion punishment doesnt work, and second chances are often fruitless, however I do think ES has proven time and time again to actually contribute something, that has to count for something.

It's not really appropriate for a gaming forum in my opinion


Theres just quite a few too many 'intellectuals' (I use this word lightly) on these forums.

Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
if Stardock were to show a bit of divine beneficence towards ES it would be viewed by many as a positive thing. I have reason to suspect that such charity by Stardock would not go unappreciated.

Rising my hand in support.

Just to add my thought: I grow up in a country where the freedom od speech was guarranted in the constitution, but the freedom after speech was not. So the term "political correctness" sounds in my ears strangely familiar, with many unpeasant echos.

I don't know why exactly Evil was banned. I tried to find his last posts, but the search engine on forums behaves strangely. IIRC in his latest posts he sounded happy to overcome his game problems. But if he was banned for not being "politically correct" and not because of serious personal insults or attacks, I can't support such a decision. I specifically remember wheelOfFire's last post, for which he was permanently banned. I personally couldn't find anything really offensive in it, just a strong cynical mood, and was quite surprised for the punishment he received. I admit I don't know much of his other posts, but the few posts I read of him, and much more of Storm, were most of the time interesting, and backed up with enough truth to differ from trolling and plain flamming.

Without someone to stirr the water is the life significantly less interesting. Please let the pike back in our puddle.

BR, Iztok
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top



Mumblefratz Let me first say you are old enough to understand loss,.... meaning the cost of it...You ten or try to look at the whole picture.I feel you are more forgiving the most.But the older we get the harder our egg shells become.I`m not surprise to see you come to ES aid but i`m surprise to hear he was ban.I did not know this.

Even tho you know this is not going to change things you still try.Good for you

should ES be ban don`t know what he did last to get there.Should he be let back in guess that does not matter what we think,.. we are not the powers to be.There is guild lines,...guild lines Must be followed!!! well unfortunately things are not that cut and dry to us but are to the powers that be.


What did he do this time ??? Was it a misunderstanding,.. Was it un call for,.. Was it ES being ES ??? what did he do. No I don`t expect a answer. just question as to why???

If he had not had some good post that were not positive I would not be adding my two cents that no one care about. But he has.

We can ask,.. beg,.. demand and plead but it well do no good.

as a whole this community is at a loss with out him.

Can he please be a exception to the rules this time ??? I think Kryo said no already

But Kryo how much pull does the masses have ???


IMO political / religious topics do not belong on a game site forum it is asking for trouble.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

We never take lightly the idea of removing someone from the forums, but from time to time it does happen.  When it does happen, it's not the decision of one member of the team, it's something we discuss.  And it takes a lot to reach that point.  As someone above speculated, it was a matter of "the straw that broke the camel's back."

The decision was based on his behavior as a whole on the site.  While I won't cover any specifics, many on this thread can probably call to mind any number of instances. 

The end result is that he has been banned, after many opportunities to change his behavior.  I appreciate the effort you folks are making on his behalf, but the decision was made and won't be reversed.

Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I appreciate the effort you folks are making on his behalf, but the decision was made and won't be reversed.

I had assumed the probability of success here was very small but felt obligated to "tilt at windmills" anyway. In fact your response to this thread was more than I had expected and I thank you for making it.

I understand and appreciate the idea that the decision to ban someone is made very slowly and carefully but once made is final. I also cannot deny that ES had been given sufficient warning and opportunity to change. But I do wish there was some more formal intermediate step, other than verbal warnings regardless of their severity, between giving someone a timeout as a visitor and a permanent banning.

It's just that I find something abhorrent about the idea of eternal damnation without the possibility of redemption. It's primarily this reason that's turned me off of the entire Judeo-Christian concept of religion even though I sport Martian Luther as an avatar (but that's an entirely different discussion). How about leaving the slightest crack of redemption open by allowing the possibility that if a banned character was still interested in being reinstated one year after being initially banned that such a request would at least be considered? After all, in terms of the average lifetime of a forum character, a year is pretty much indistinguishable from eternity.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't know why exactly Evil was banned.


I don't either, and don't expect to. But I miss him, too. When he took time to think about what he was trying to say he had interesting ideas, but he had/has a short fuse. But I miss the fun...

Stardock folks, if you needed to to it I can understand. But the loss of any diminishes us all, and the forums aren't the same.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
How about leaving the slightest crack of redemption open by allowing the possibility that if a banned character was still interested in being reinstated one year after being initially banned that such a request would at least be considered? After all, in terms of the average lifetime of a forum character, a year is pretty much indistinguishable from eternity.


I would support this, but in a year ES will have changed or forgotten his lessons here, or maybe he wont come back. And even if he does, how many will still remember him.

There is always the core I guess, hopefully he will become more active there.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
but in a year ES will have changed or forgotten his lessons here, or maybe he wont come back. And even if he does, how many will still remember him.

Or perhaps in a year he may have *learned* his lesson, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I will remember him in a year and I suspect that most everyone here will remember him in a year, the real question is will any of us that remember him still be here in a year and I at least hope the answer to that is yes.

I guess that how you think of this depends a lot on your perception. I probably know as much about this as anyone and my knowledge is still quite piecemeal. I do know that while on balance I like ES that doesn't mean he hasn't said some things that I take to be indefensible.

There is no benefit in taking the point of view that ES's banning was totally unwarranted. At some point, if enough folks say that there's something wrong then you need to face the potential that you bear some culpability and it's not just that everyone is picking on you. I’ve seen ES able to admit that maybe he was wrong in such and such a case and this is what made me feel that he’s worthy of redemption, but to suggest that the banning was without cause is something I can’t do.

Yes a year is a long time in a venue such as this but the alternative is forever. A year is slightly less than forever. Also what you or I support is immaterial. I would expect that if a period of time had expired and a previously banned character were to say “You know maybe I was being an @$$ and I’m sorry. Could you let me back” how could any reasonable person not at least consider it. On the other hand if the banned character took the point of view that there was nothing they did that warranted the banning then there’s not much anyone can do.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
“You know maybe I was being an @$$ and I’m sorry. Could you let me back” how could any reasonable person not at least consider it?


Easily. A reasonable person would have read the rules and known that the possibility of posting "whatever" could lead to a permanent ban. A reasonable person would, before posting something inflammatory, deragatory, or insulting to the general sensibilities of others, stop and think "hey, does my life really hang on this next post?" and instead of hammering on the keyboard, would go outside and have a smoke. A reasonable person would heed the warnings of moderators and take them seriously.

Munmblefratz, I really do admire the love you have for your friend here, and if in a similar siuation, I may do the same thing, however, the ban is the only punitive measure the moderators have in enforcing forum rules. If that measure is comprimised, as you suggest, moderating effectiveness drops drastically. I have have been on forums where people can return after being banned, and it turns into a circus. These individuals know they can "misbehave" (for better lack of a word) and are garunteed to return in a week/month/year, etc. The problem individuals of those forums are almost all repeat offenders.

Secondly, if one person is allowed back arbitrarily, why not allow back everyone who has been banned? It would be the only "fair" thing to do. This would open the flood gate of individuals who prefer to disrupt rather than contribute and would hurt, if not ruin the experience of our genuine community members.

If the moderators felt that ES had to go, then he had to go and probably for good reason. As much as I liked ES too, I gotta side with Stardock and the mods on this one. I think the best thing we can all learn fro this, is that there are real consequences for our actions here, and we should be aware of this when we go to post.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You missed the point of the quoted sentence a bit. The reasonable person I was referring to in that case would be one of the "powers that be" that would presumably be responding to a request for reinstatement when such a request is accompanied by an expression of honest remorse. I was trying to point out that without the expression of remorse such a request would definitely be fruitless. This was a message to ES himself more than anyone else.

What you are talking about are the warnings both verbally and by being given a timeout that should be sufficient to cause the "reasonable person", in this case is the potential offender, to weighs his words before he speaks. To this I agree 100%. I'd also add to these reasons the normal bounds of civilized behavior that for some reason otherwise totally normal people feel the internet releases them from. This to me is the true underlying cause of such behavior. You take totally normal people and put them in the context of the internet and suddenly they feel it's OK to be rude and obnoxious when in “real life” they may in fact be totally the opposite. I have no idea why this is so but it is.

Nor am I arguing that any banned individual should be "arbitrarily" allowed back. As far as I know this is the only banned individual that has prompted an expression of support by at least some segment of the community. In and of itself, that highlights this particular case as somewhat unique.

I accept Zoomba’s statement of the way things are and in fact never doubted that Stardock et. al. operated with good cause to protect as you say the “experience of our genuine community members”. I merely expressed my own feelings in this specific case which were then echoed by a number of other respected community members. However, having expressed these feelings and having them acknowledged by Stardock, specifically by Zoomba’s reply, the purpose of this thread is pretty much at an end, at least in my case.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But on the other hand, anyone who gets banned can always choose to buy the game again and create a new or similar login.

Bying the game again would be a way of making recompense for the bad forum behaviour. does that sound fair?

The only question is, If you did buy a new copy of the game as a banned person, then create a new login, would stardock ban you again if they found out? i do not know their policy on this?
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But on the other hand, anyone who gets banned can always choose to buy the game again and create a new or similar login.


That's probably not in the cards in this case. I offered to buy the Gold Edition for him if he'd return. He appreciated, but declined my offer.

It appears that the matter is closed and wrapped up pretty tight. Nowhere to go but forward from here.


Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But on the other hand, anyone who gets banned can always choose to buy the game again and create a new or similar login.

Bying the game again would be a way of making recompense for the bad forum behaviour. does that sound fair?

The only question is, If you did buy a new copy of the game as a banned person, then create a new login, would stardock ban you again if they found out? i do not know their policy on this?
Yes they can find out and yes they would ban the new character as well. They would be silly not to since otherwise what would be the point of banning someone.

It's a very simple matter of IP logging. Certainly if you have a fixed IP address or two (work and home) then it's trivial to "know" who someone is. In the more standard scenario you're dynamically assigned a temporary IP address by your internet service provider, but even in that case the set of IP addresses that you use is from a limited set and if you keep track these IP addresses for a reasonably short period of time it's pretty easy to develop a signature that identifies the user.

Even if all that is recorded is the IP address of each post then all you need to be able to do is to compare the IP address of a user to all posts submitted using that IP address. While it's certainly possible that any matching post could simply be someone that happens to use the same ISP it's public knowledge that the IP address belongs to for example not only America Online but also a specific locale as well, i.e. the specific America Online office name and address is known as well. If this were used to check who posted something to a very popular site it may be difficult to narrow the result to a single individual, but for a site that has as limited appeal as this one it's very probable that there would only be a single user from that specific area and ISP that posts to these forums. Finding a definite match would in all likelihood be trivial.

I think the best thing we can all learn from this, is that there are real consequences for our actions here, and we should be aware of this when we go to post.
This point that denyasis made is definitely valid. The assumption of anonymity is a poor one to make.

Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You've hit my area of expertise.

The IP thing wouldn't be a fair assumption. Most workplaces now use a single IP address for desktop users (PAT - Port Address Translation) and you could easily have hundreds or thousands of people using the same IP address for internet use. The registered locale is often wrong as well. Companies will commonly get a range assigned and reassign it to a lower party (actively encouraged for the last few years), split the addresses and use them in multiple locals, or simply change their use without registering the changed use (you only have to register when you get them or get more). You could also avoid this by using a free public internet proxy to mask your source IP address. There will also be some people, like me, who have access to five different IP address ranges already. But all this is probably more work than anyone would go to.

Given the kind of person this game appeals to, you could also easily have more than one user at certain companies, which draw the right kind of employee, with the same IP or someone who has access to multiple uniquely styled IPs...

However, that combined with writing style would likely ID someone pretty quick.