I don't think the OP is arguing about how hard the spy system is to master, quite the opposite. The problem is more about balance.

A top player with a strong economy can afford the 5k bc per turn to create a spy a turn. In fact it's welcome when trying to get below the 20k bc mark every week. It's just too easy to plant 15 spies on your opponent just before you declare war to cripple their economy. They can't build more ships, and it's an easy win. Shouldn't be that simple.

On the other hand, if you're struggling to keep up, the constant appearance of enemy spies is a real blow. It can easily push you to a point you can't recover from.

In essence, the system seems to make an easy win easier, and a tough win tougher. If it were balanced, shouldn't that be the other way around?

Good points Elwood.

I have just never had the aI constantly plant spies on me, so far. I get the occasional one or two - but it is fairly easy to keep a stock of spies in the stable to counter these...until the end game, when they get very expensive.

Perhaps there should be a limit of how many spies you can place in one turn - this would at least spread the 'spy bombing' technique out over time, giving the aI (or the player) time to deal with it if they choose to.

I have a Silly question.

What is this new spy system and how to get it ?
I just buy the game yesterday (Galciv2 gold) and the spying screen has just a slider, there is no number of spy.

Any help ??


Hello by the way

GC gold has the old spy system, though not perfect, you basically spend money on spying on opponents to get a diplomacy bonus, and information such as exact spending and such. Even if they spend money on the spy network, its impossible to block, and once you reach the HIGH status of spying, you can stop spying. Which was really bad.

The new spy system was introduced in Dark Avatar, the expansion for GC2. now you have, “agents” that you pay for and get more expensive per agent. You have to place these agents on an opponent’s tile in order to use them.
This does 2 things; they completely stop that tiles bonus. (How that would work I have no idea.) and gathers information from your opponent (technology, and the old system info you got when you put money into your opponent)

You have no control over your spy, spying on your allies hurts them, once you reach the Low, Med, High status of spying it never goes away, you have no way to pull out your spy and save them should someone uses a spy on you. So you lose that spy.

Good or bad?

Thus far the most basic argument is that this game is not about micro management. (Notice there isn’t a combat simulator, RTS or anything else?) This is a big picture game. (Managing the planet is the exception)

Not only that, the dynamics of this spy system is really broken. Should several computers use spies against you, you probably wont have the resources to fight them off. And the computer doesn’t take them away unless you kick them off.

Should YOU be the master spy in this game, life is kind of easy in a sense. if you go to war with someone, you can really kill there economy. Not only such but also you can kill your Ally with another ally! (get them to war with each other and spy one the one you want to lose)

To me, it’s a really bad system. There isn’t anyway to clean your empire from a computer who already reached a HIGH spy status against you. Nor you them…the list can go on for anyone who has the imagination to use this tool.

I’m not asking for a refund, I just want the old system with better dynamics.

The spy system is an irritant which degrades the game.

Spies in the real world do not halt production anyway. They steal information.

This game dosnt reflect reality or history. Its just a game, somones concept of something to play. If people enjoy playing it, there isnt a problem.

I can deal with pretty much all the flaws this game has, except the spies. That ruins it.

I agree with that. Lets hope that someone is paying attention!

Im not seeing anything negitive about keeping this post active. So im just Commenting to get more people to say something and hopefully get a patch *prays* to allow the option of the old ways.
Even somone making a mod would be nice.

Well, I've kept playing and kept trying to keep an open mind. I admit that I've had some late-game fun using spy hordes that can nearly shut down a mid-rank AI's economy.

But even if I can get the spy-early thing working to get some Low intel on most of my neighbors, it still sticks in my craw that I have to do them harm just to get the info.

I doubt this thing can be modded, but I still have a vague hope that the old code can be cajoled into sharing with the new code, or that we might at least get an option for which spy system we want to use.

I like what the new spy system brings to the game, but I think it can be made a lot better with just a few tweaks. Here's what I would change:

- Allow a spy placed on a planet to be either on a tile or not. Add a little sidebar of "observing" tiles on the spy placement screen. An observing spy gathers intelligence as normal, but do not disrupt any tiles and cannot be nullified. A spy placed on a tile behaves as in the current version of the game.

- The spy-nullifying system should be changed to favour the defender. For example, the defender's spy could have a chance of surviving the process of nullifying the attacker's spy. This chance could depend on the relative espionage bonuses of the two races, perhaps. Also, an attacker's spy should have a VERY SMALL chance each week to be nullified automatically, without action from the defender. Again, this chance could depend on the espionage level of the attacker.

Under this system you can emulate the old spy system by placing spies only in "observe" mode. Using a "spy attack" on an enemy's economy is costly, as they can nullify your agents at an advantage. Also, even if your enemy is so weak that they cannot afford agents, parking on their economy for a long period of time is risky as your agents will eventually expire randomly. In order to exploit the spy system as you currently can, you would have to have a pretty large espionage bonus, making that stat worthwhile.

(edit - clarified wording)

Just allow spy to be placed on the colony tile for info only.



Spy Nullifying already greatly favors the defender. Counter-Espionage building permanently ends spying on that planet, and provides a Morale boost. And the AI never uses them (that I have seen). Everyone in this debate always forgets to mention that.

drrider

The limit of 1 spy per planet seems artificial to me, but I'd accept that solution.



The effect of the C-E building is much too stark to me. It's just not any fun; I'm forced to be annoyed by the spying mechanic until I use up resources to make the mechanic go away completely. I'd much rather have the building give me an advantage to the spy-nullifying minigame, without eliminating it entirely. Have the building greatly increase my ability to nullify enemy spies automatically/without loss, and/or allow me to nullify spies that are just gathering information. And vice-versa; I'd like to be able to use a batallion of spies against an enemy planet with heavy C-E, knowing I'll suffer heavy penalties for doing so.

I'd still give bonuses to the defender without the C-E building. Moving an offensive spy from information-gathering to tile-disruption should come with a penalty, not just force an equal exchange. I'll admit, though, that this is more of a tuning issue than a necessity.

I'd do the spy thing a little differently. Like others, I'd have an "intelligence" meter, which you pay into to get info on the enemy. How effective it is depends on how much you pay vs the size of the target, their tech level, and how much they're spending on "counterintelligence". A second part you pay into separately is "counterintelligence", where you're trying to spoof enemy intelligence. Both have inertia, so it takes a while (and money) to increase your effectiveness level. Both would have a "maintenance" level, so while shutting off funding would not kill your effectiveness, but it would decrease it over time exponentially. (no more reaching "high" and not having to spend another cent)

The second part would be the "sabotage" part. Rather than a "spy", you'd have a sabotage unit. These cost a certain amount to train, based on their "effectiveness" (essentially better tech = better spies, but they cost more to train and deploy). Once they are "created" (which would be a constant amount), you'd have to pay maintenance (which would be an exponential amount, to limit how many you could use). When not in use, these saboteurs would do nothing (except maybe boost your counterintelligence), but in the field, their maintenance cost would skyrocket (possibly exponentially with respect to the number of saboteurs working against a particular empire). Thus you could hoard saboteurs, and unleash them in a flurry, but it would cost you. As your tech got better, you'd have to retrain them, or maybe just keep them home (with their level delta being adjusted per turn until they were fully "upgraded")

Nullifying would go away. Instead, your counterintelligence level would counter enemy saboteurs, and there would be a chance each enemy saboteur would die each turn, and maybe affect the enemy's maintenance (more security = more expensive sabotage missions). Spotting a spy isn't all that much different than spotting a saboteur.

This way you could control what you were interested in. If you're being hammered, you could pile money into counterintelligence to make your empire relatively safe. Sufficient tech or empire wealth would still allow you to overwhelm the enemy, but unless you were hugely rich, you could not mount a large-scale sabotage operation *and* counterintelligence *and* regular intelligence at the same time.

Since I know where the saboteurs are on my land, I'd like to play a more active role in the counterintelligence part of the game. If I have 4 saboteurs on my planets, I want to choose which is to be countered. Nuts to those four spies on random stock markets, but I NEED that precursor mine on the disputed planet. If the C-E slider generates anti-spies to be used as I please, then sure.

After thinking about it a little more: I just don't like the idea of spies as pests. They are completely visible and are doing their damage slowly, turn by turn. At any point a spy can be removed and its damage is reverted; it's just annoying to do so. I'd prefer the opposite: spies are invisible and once their damage is done it cannot be undone through anti-spy measures.

For example, keep the current system, but a spy placed on a tile (a) does nothing and (b) is undetected for N turns. On turn N, an instantaneous effect occurs. Destroys the building on the tile, or disables the tile for k turns, perhaps. Once the damage is done, the spy is removed and can be used elsewhere. A separate C-E slider is used for defensive spending; the role of C-E is to detect spies while they are nesting. A detected spy is nullified immediately at no cost. This sort of system adds some suspense to the espionage minigame, with a "GOTCHA!" element. Similar to MoO, but with finer control over what the spies are doing.

The problem is the spying is way to simple. I'm all for simplicity, but it needs depth.

I agree with splitting up the intelligence-gathering and sabotage functions, they really aren't all that related, except that you first need intelligence to tell the saboteurs what to destroy. Which makes the current spy system completely backwards, actually. I favor the idea of expanding the role of sensors, so that you could equip ships with special sensor modules that can gather info on enemy planets in range. The idea of an "Observer" type starbase particularly appeals to me, like the "spy satellites" that Drengin mentioned. To me sensors have such a small role, its almost trivial, expanding their functions to spying would make them more valuable, not to mention more realistic, as that is what most governments would probably use satellites for anyways. If you like the idea of an observer starbase, I started a thread trying to voice the idea, but no one has responded yet...WWW Link

Why not just simulate real life rather than dealing with this stupid and lousy system of spying? I don’t know who created this idea to favor defenders in spying, making it ever so pricy and causing vast amounts of frustration with the game.
Ships don’t get more expensive if you build more do they?
Oh this is the only reason why I stopped playing DA as well. I just came back to see if it’s still there and yep. Sure enough they didn’t fix it.
It was a very easy system. But you do need sliders to represent espionage spending. Counter, Intelligence, and espionage should be the three sliders. From there it should go as you get reports regarding this second layer of game play. what intel you have, such as troop movements ect, what contacts you have on different planets, things of that nature.
And if your at war with someone, the espionage spending on them will work to stealing ships, causing instability, stealing money ect
And if you stop spending money on intelligence, eventually your knowledge on your enemy drops. It’s ridiculous that you can get it to the best and that’s it from there.

And it truly is that simple.

I don't find the spy system particularly fun either. I think they should just admit failure and go back to the drawing board. Come up with something better for TA.

BTW, don't blame me, I'm not the one who dug up this old thread

I, too, initially thought the new spy system would be fun. But, after playing with it for a while, I'd say I prefer the old system. First, in general, I don't want to sabotage things (though, sometimes it's useful): I just want information or techs. Second, I feel like a mouse on a wheel trying to place/keep/neutralize spies: I keep running like the dickens, but don't necessarily get anywhere. And finally, to "turn it off," I'm forced to research Counter Espionage and use a tile on each planet I have or conquer to build that building. I could live with a single building empire-wide. But, not one on each planet.

TA coming out seems a very good reason to dig up this thread. Given all the work Stardock have done just on DA 1.7, I have the impression that the request to at least separate intelligence gathering from sabotage should be a reasonable dev task. The UI wouldn't even need serious tweaking: keep the main Econ page the same, with just one Espionage slider, and on the Espionage page make the current single slider a pair that divide spending between buying intel and building spy units.

That said, even though I'm on record with copious griping about DA spying, I think folks like Allimar are kind of cutting off their noses to spite their faces. True, it is frustrating to have all that click overhead and swelling costs to gain even partial intel on the AIs. But if you play a enough games, you can come to accept the DA weaknesses. Spying isn't a big enough part of either DL or DA to make it such a showstopper.

Ill agree with you GW. I am hurting myself more then I could simply enjoy the game for what it is. I had no complaints with Dread Lords, but sometimes you just do too much and make things worse. DAoC and SWG are two prime examples of how over tweeking a game can lead to failure however.

In the DA beta they had a selector in the game customization menu where you can select and make spying DL style rather then DA. That would be nice at least, as well say a counter intel slider to the old way to make oponents progressivly lose intel standing.

As a newcomer I dont see any point to spies. All the ones I plant get nullified within 2 turns or so, and I can't see any real benefit to espionage in game terms. I always have massive amounts of cash. Occassionally we steal some tech. Thats about it?

I don't notice anything else tbh ..

Dull and rather pointless as far as I am concerned ..

Re nullifications, that's a matter of whether your target has had their spy pool worn down by multiple or superior attackers. If you always have massive amounts of cash, you can up your spending on spy production and take down their defenses with one or two waves, after which you should be able to leave a trio around for long enough to get a level or two of intel. Advanced intel lets you see things like fleet destinations and starbase modules.

The other way the new spy units are handy is as a complement to a well-planned war. When you have an enemy struggling to survive your onslought, very likely they're out of spies and you can take a big bite out of their economy by closing down econ tiles.

Mind you, I'm saying all this "nice" stuff about the spies because I Want My Passive Intel Gathering Back. The two modes *can* play nicely together from a player POV, and I can't imagine that coding the AIs to handle it would be that hard. I've yet to see anyone from Stardock explain the either/or approach, so I remain a skeptic of it. (Beg pardon if I missed an explanation, please post thread link if so)

Perhaps spies could be used to permanently damage buildings and then leave. Honestly if you were a spy sabotaging a building, why would you stay there? Just make the place blow up and make the civ painstakingly repair it.

Actually with drengin slave pits coming up, maybe you could have an underground railroad where you funnel the freed slaves to your planets. They could even have different buildings have unique espionage options available.

PS: Why do spies cost more than the last spy that was trained?

spying shouldnt be something you control. Reality (bare with me) is you give specil ops and trusted personel money and tell them to find ways to knock out enemy defenses, steal ships, gather technology ect.

This should include buying out govoners and other things. I dont know if anyone has played Pax Imperia, but spying in that game was fierce. I want that spy system if you have to be an active participant.

Actually, I miss Pax imperia eminent domain... the real time portion kinda sucked. and it was far from being completed, but it was a really good game. Ship customization made sense, politics did as well. Its just outdated.

hmm....