Careful, Marcus. I don't think Kryo is entirely approving of this thread, but I bet he is enjoying it. I know I am. Don't start flaming, here - I'm having a good time with this discussion and don't want to see it end.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

I think the truth here is that any form of government does restrict our freedom. I am not free to drive at 100mph on my local streets, nor can I decide not to pay my property taxes. Unless we live in a complete anarchy there are some restrictions on what we can and cannot do.

Is the government restricting our freedoms through the Patriot Act? I think so, to a degree. And I too think that is wrong, in principle. If we change our way of life then the terrorists are winning.

But this is a new kind of conflict, which calls for new responses, I think. How can we protect our borders? Forget Mexico - the US-Canada border is the longest unprotected border in the world. Should that change? Should we issue a national ID card and is that a loss of freedom? I don't think so - our Social Security numbers are used for everything anyway, so why not issue an ID card?

Intelligent debate is crucial here. Yes, we need to defend the country, but rights that we give up are rights my kids may not get back. What say you, Stormbringer?

I hope every child everywhere could sleep safely, I think you are overly worried about the threat to America, Thats considering your own personal worries about your children, what is more important to any parent. I cannot possibly argue with that. any parent wherever they are especially in desperate climates feel anxious, paranoid and desperate.
Some children live in war with ever present dangers, But thats getting off your well argued idea.



Were not evil, we are just fooled by the lies of Israeli innocence.

This whole issue has been going on for decades, the west trying to prove that the ignorabt muslims will still be better under our control.

It's not just them they don't attack without some cause. Osama aside. he's a nutcase.

I try to see what has been done to muslims in that region, the atrocities carried out by Israel.

I also think of the children on a beach in Gaza, sunbathing when an Israeli destroyer shelled the beach and killed whole families,
What I am trying to suggest that there are despotic people on all sides who consider human life cheap.
Just because thee are many palestinian's who chose to kill in defense of their lands . which under any articles of war have been invaded by Israel, cannot be totally condemned, I do not agree with innocent death, this is a war crime.
I do believe that Israel is responsible for many war crimes themselves so it's hard to point the finger of blame when anarchy has been sought by both nations.

I guess what I'm saying is, there are two sides that have murdered innocents in this "Israeli" tragedy

I hope the west can reach out to the Muslim nations with the same compassion that we so eagerly flood upon Israel, It is surely a one isided war, no help for the "wicked"

These freedoms are given up because of rationality, it can't be right for you to do these things under any normal circumstance.
So i agree that voluntary restrictions on total freedom are obvious to us all.


What is not so obvious is the problem brought up your next statement



Those rights we give up are not forfeited freely, but stolen by lies.

If I truly believed that the future of my nation was under threat I would allow the government to, temporarily restrict my freedoms in order to combat a clear and imminent danger.
But what I am in total disagreement with is a government that totally and egregiously flaunts it's rights,then my right to clear and open government is corrupted by as low a thing as blatant lies.
I will never trust that governments decisions with regard to any freedom I have, let alone restrictions of freedom it hides from the people until it's too late to argue.

Especially when the reasons for those restrictions have in some way been fictionalised by that same government.

Agree! But it is not just terrorism, any threat causes new restrictions and laws... look at speed limits, in some places it is just getting rediculous, and this is from the threat that speed kills. And that is just the tip of the iceberg, frankly i am amazed the government dousn't just ban going outside altogether, i mean because going outside is just so dangerous! (sarcasm alert).



Sorry my post was a bit crappy... I mean to say that what some muslims choose to do in response to their belief that the west is evil is what i don't like. Also to a much lesser extent, i dislike some of the things that our governments have chosen to do in response to our perception of evil muslims.

Sticks and Stones my friend. It sounds like you trying to lock this tread also with your insults of racism. It sounds like since I don't agree with you on much that I must be a racist. I understand that it is quite easy for the internet warrior that throws his insults around. There was nothing in my post that can be construded as such. Radicals tend to function on the extremes of reactions and your posts tend to prove that quite well. You hate your government and you hate my government, but lucky for you, your imigration laws are such that you can leave. I can't think of a single utopia that exists out there, but Cuba sounds like it might be your best bet.

I feel the same way. Once they're gone, they're gone... kind of like the PA Turnpike project. Yeah, everyone was told that it would be a 'toll road' long enough to pay off the cost of construction. But guess what. It's still a toll road and the 'costs' were paid off years ago. Oh, and the toll raises annually. Just a comparison to the old "when they're gone, they're gone" saying.




Here is where Marcus throws the proverbial 'wrench into the works', in my eyes at least. Since I must be the 'conspiracy personality' of which folkewolfe refers to, , I will say that I believe the 'vast majority' of freedoms which have been taken from us in one way or another were due to lies in one form or another. In fact, I would guess that there are a 'few' freedoms that we once had, don't have now, and do not even realize that we are 'without it', if that makes sense.
Would I 'temporarily' give up certain freedoms for the 'greater good' if I thought it would protect my family? I don't know the answer to that as it isn't that cut and dry to me. I think I would rather have the choice to 'protect' my family myself, even if that meant that I could stroll down to the local army reserve base and check out a few .50 cal machine guns and some anti-personnel mines for the purpose of doing just that. Reliance on our government is something we 'the people' are very guilty of and it IS OUR FAULT that the government/media has such a hold on us, since we did allow it regardless of whether they 'cloud' our thoughts and our lives or not (and by this I mean the subtle 'mind control' propaganda that they pump through our brains daily). This is not conspiracy madness in action, it is truth. It is not so 'devilish' to think that business, government, and media would use these known and proven methods of persuasion 'on' us, or is it more like 'against' us?
Please forgive the haste with which I wrote this up. I do not think it is a response befitting our general conversation but I will post it anyway. Work is a bear today for some reason and this thread deserves more attention than I can truly give to it at the moment.
And please guys, let's try to keep all of this as 'civil' as possible. My reason for not using Joe User should be obvious enough, as I like to read about the game as well as discuss current events and such with the same people who play this game. The few times I did try Joe User I found it to be a waste of my time. In here, at least it feels like I 'know' most of you and I enjoy your comments and outlooks, regardless of whether we agree or not. So peace people!

Yup. We did it to ourselves. I do believe that the government tries to act in our best interests, but sometimes those interests lead to dependance on government programs when we should be more self-reliant.



Agreed. I'm not looking for a flame war.



I know you were in a hurry, Stormbringer, but what freedoms have we lost? I think that this country has been very aware of the freedoms we have, and very vocal about restrictions on them. You'll probably bring up the Patriot Act. I think that is probably too restrictive, but at least there was a time limit on it. Are there other examples you can think of?



Maybe. Radicals tend to have strongly held views. The challenge, then, is to win their hearts and minds. Convince him, Folkewolfe, don't insult him. Play nice.



Where did this come from? But, if you want to start...

Israel is a created country, a result of the world's guilt after the Holocaust, I suppose. Fine. Does that mean the Arab world can destroy it because they don't like it?
Much of the Israeli military response over the years has been in direct response to threats, and their perceived strength has allowed them to continue to exist. I do think that they cause some of their own problems (as do we) and have killed innocent people (as have we), but look at their example. Apparently the Arab Muslim world respects military might. So our current show of force in Iraq may actually be the right thing to do.

The minute you argue that Israel kills civilians I stop listening, for the same reason I think that our courts-martial of soldiers accused of "murder" are ridiculous. If a group of people (Shi' ites, Hamas, the Viet Cong, whoever)use civilian cover to perform destructive acts then they have militarized the civilians, not the people who try to defend themselves. When Hamas put rocket launchers in civilian parking garages those garages became legitimate military targets, even if two kids were playing house there. We didn't make it a target, Hamas did.



Oh, wow, I shouldn't assume. Marcus, are you talking about the US government or not?
Yes, I think the US (my) government tries to put a spin on issues, but that's how it works. The individual voters are expected to inform themselves as to what is going on. We are our own defense. Look at Watergate and the public response to Vietnam. Look at the current debate about Iraq. It's not perfect, but it works. I challenge you to show me a better system that is currently in operation in the world.

I don't ever trust the government, though. But I don't really trust anyone...but then, I'm an evil Republican!



Is this the missing WMD argument?



We have compassion for Israel because we see them as always under attack. For that reason, we have little compassion for Iraq because we see them as the agressor.

Which is wrong. The agressor here are the Islamic extremists, not any national group. I think that we vented our national frustration on an available target who was threatening us, and we acted out of good intentions. But it may have been the wrong target.



OK, that's clearer. So what is an appropriate response to evil?

I'll bite on this one since it's a quick answer (and it will drive all of you guys nuts!). The appropriate response to evil is to do as Jesus did... show love, compassion and understanding. Turn away from the violence and make your enemy your family.
So when you're done laughing at that one answer mine... is acting evil towards evil really accomplishing anything or are we just lowering ourselves to their level? When does our barbarity pass theirs and what happens when it does? Then what and whose side becomes the 'good' side against the 'evil'?

You got me on that one Oz as I have no way to reference sources to give examples. The Patriot Act wasn't even on my mind but I KNOW you thought I would use that one. I may not be able to cite any specifics at this time (but now I will be on a mission over the weekend in an attempt to pull up some really good specifics), but I will say that we have definitely lost more 'control' of our lives in a sense, instead of our 'rights'.
Some quick thoughts of mine (and no, most of these probably aren't rights so...) are:
The war on drugs/drug laws in general
Gun control laws
Right to life laws/abortion laws
Consumer laws/rights
Private citizen laws/rights (this is mainly in response to some recent 'eminent domain' cases that I've read about but can also encompass what local govt. is allowed to do to property owners, as well as state and federal govt. against a private citizen)
Labor laws (yes, I know we have it much better than most do and we all have it better than people did decades and centuries ago, but nonetheless, labor laws favor big business anymore for the most part)
Tax laws (again, maybe materialism, but what is mine should be mine... not welfare's and uncle Sam's)
Vehicle registration/private property ownership laws
Like I said Oz, I would love to dig deeper into these things. I'll probably do best over the weekend when I can go online from home and just let my mind have the freedom it needs to ponder without interruption.
But you did get me on the freedoms examples Oz, you...
I'm going to concede on this one. DAMN IT!!!

[


Stormbringer, I would have bet (what's left of) my paycheck that you would have said "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!" You suprise me!   

You know, that is the right answer. It's how I try to live my life and what I try to teach my kids. So why am I not willing to apply it to this larger issue?

Let me try this - when that Korean Cho kid was shooting up Virginia Tech no love or compassion would have been able to stop him. Love and compassion may have made a difference earlier in his life, but the only way that day was going to end for him was with a bullet in his head. If (and its a big if) the individuals that are orchestrating the violence in Iraq are like Cho, then the only way it will end is in destruction - whether or not we are there. If we stay, they will kill each other and us. If we leave they will only kill each other.

I believe that, in a way, we tried to deal with Saddam with understanding and compassion. We did not destroy him in Iraq 1. We tried to work through the UN inspectors and be patient while all along he ranted and raved about destroying us. So we called his bluff. Now we feel guilty that we destroyed the country and are trying to make it right and failing.

Iraq was already destroyed. Saddam's reign was just delaying the process. Just like Somalia and Kosovo, these people will kill each other at every opportunity. Will love and compassion change that?



Perhaps the mistake we are making is in being so idealistic to believe that we (or anyone) can bring the Shi' ites and Sunnis together. Maybe the realistic thing is to choose a side to support and help them win. One suggestion I have heard is to divide Iraq into three smaller nations, one for each sect.

So while we vaccillate and fail to make a decision they kill each other. In our inaction we have become the evil we sought to destroy. "Luke, I am your father!"

Where is Yoda when you need him?

I would argue that since ALL of these issues are hotly debated everywhere the system is working as designed. These issues continue to come up everywhere, from local levels to the Supreme Court and continue to be discussed. As a nation, we have not made up our minds, and we need to stay vocal and protect our views.

It's easy to be jaded with national government. We just had our local election two weeks ago and I was pleased to see all the debate over local tax referendum issues. People still care. Jefferson's Great Experiment still works. It might be dented and leaking oil, but it still works.

"Man is not born knowing hate, prejudice and intolerance... man learns these traits"
I seem to remember this as being a quote (or close to it anyways) but I can't remember it word for word nor who said it. It does seem to sum things up nicely though for it is usually these three things alone which cause conflicts among us. Just thought I'd throw something random in here.

MarcusCardif



Sorry for the uncalled for out burst there is no justification for it and there was little reason execpt that I was anrgy and I come seeking forgiveness for any insult that you may have precieved. You have started a great post with smart people from all roads answering and this has become enlighting thread. I like to think we are all civilized even thought i have differant views than you.
you seem to be an educated person and I will Respect that A Post made by you saying that you have read this and accepet the apology is great.

Greenfrogona ence


thats from marcism(90% sure) they person who made the comunist movement

"How come the death of one person is a tradety but they death of thousands is just a statisic"

Hitler

soory for bad grammer/spelling

That is a very good question! I like Evil Stormbringer's answer;



Although i am a Christian, i have always considered the 'turn the other cheek' motto to be a bit impracticle in certain cercumstances. But i always try to keep in mind the purpose of that kind of response.

Obviously we cannot ignore terrorist attacks, but i think the money wasted invading other countries could have been better used.... I don't think there is any reason good enough to invade another country aside from obvious human rights abuses such as in Somalia or Serbia. Yes Saddam had a crappy government but no one wanted to invade him when he gassed those Kurds,,, and that in my opinion was the only true justification for an invasion.

I think Somalia is a perfect example of how that old saying works (all it takes for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing). Who here would say we shouldn't have interefered in Somalia?

i'm one of those people (though, i don't think it was the gov't directly so much as economic elites with strong ties to the bush II administration). have you ever seen or read any of the presentations of the evidence, such as that presented in Loose Change?

also, what "proof" is there that Al Queda did it? the FBI and CIA simply say they have proof, and what they're going to do about it. they show the public only small tidbits of their supposed body of proof, and those tidbits are themselves rather questionable. so who's more gullible, the person who considers multiple possibilties and, based on the available evidence, choses the one that seems more likely but happens to be more shocking? Or is it the individual who unquestioningly trusts those in power to be truthful and Good?

Stormbringer, you would have had fun in my sociology classes.

You can always ask Al Queda! At the very least they will say they support the attack. Besides, AL Queda and similar groups are in no way trying to hide the fact they wish to harm America.

supporting the attack is different than committing it, and there's more than a few experts who've argued the tape in which they claim responsibility was faked. no, they don't hide the fact that they want to harm us, and i commend them for it: they've got more honesty than the U.S. goverment claiming to 'liberate' a country, when it's really only liberating its oil. our economic and cultural imperialism is played off as free trade and liberation, but it's harmful to other cultures. moreover, the U.S. has historically destroyed democratically elected socialisms and upheld despotic capitalisms. so what is our government really doing?

Good point. See my earlier comment that no one cared about invading iraq when Saddan gassed those Kurds. To me that would be a far more valid reason for invading than anything else.

Oh i forgot to comment... supporting the attack is no different to committing it.

Wait, let me get this straight: Are you calling the deaths of those soldiers a terrorist attack? That makes total sense, as long as you mean by the radical islamists. Your next line makes you sound very unpatriotic, like you are again blaming our government. Yes, we have not gone about the war in the best way, but it is better than letting them have the hayday they want.



That is truth. Thank you for quoting Tolkein, who is incredibly wise in his sayings.

Do you realize, all of you that you are playing exactly into Al-Queda's hands? If you don't support Bush, fine, I'm not saying he's great, but please: people have got to stand by and support America, or we are just doing Al-Queda's job for them.

Not necissarily, healthy debate is the cornerstone of any good democracy. And if you say we are doing AL Queda's job for them, i would ask, what is AL Queda's job anyway??

As far as i know, they would like to cleanse the entire Earth of all evil doers - evil doers being anyone who isn't a devout muslim!

That is a total stereotype. It's not that simple.


So, are you going to tell me that saying 'the stupidest think America has ever done is elect Bush' is healthy debate?

BTW, I knew you would ask what Al Queda's job was, and their aim is not to "cleanse the entire Earth of [anyone who isn't a devout muslim!], they wish to harm destroy America and specifically the Christian religion.

So your saying that if AL Queda succeded in destroying america and eliminating Christianity, after doing all that, they would then sit back and relax and leave all those hethen hindu or whatever else isn't muslim in peace?

No, no, they would keep on going, trust me on this ok!