Horatio Hornblower Horatio Hornblower

Hows the new AI?

Hows the new AI?

Hi,

Is the AI significantly improved in DA?

I gave up on GC2 after realizing that the AI, while still significantly better than most strategy AIs, was still making some fairly serious missteps in the planetary management (3 farms on a class 6, 9 embassies, etc etc), military strategy (endlessly unescorted transports, huge fleets parked on worlds that didn't have the fleet improvement allowing you to pick them off 1 at a time), unimproved starbases everywhere, and so on.

So has it improved significantly in these areas? I know Brad has rewritten the planet management. What about the tactical AI? Starbases? How's it doing with the new features, like asteroids, spies and mega-events?

My concerns about the AI are the only thing preventing me from making the purchase, so I'd love to get some feedback.

Cheers

h

51,012 views 135 replies
Reply #51 Top
These are my tricks for beating Suicidal. Wyndstar already covered a few of them. I think most of it doesn't involve exploiting the AI, it's more about taking advantage of the game mechanics, and would work just fine against a smart human player.

How to crush Suicidal

1) Before the game starts, put your ability points into population growth, morale, and economy. In GC2, money does everything and generating more money will make your civ stronger in all areas. Tax income is the first and primary way of making money, so that's why these three abilities are important. Diplomacy is also a powerful choice if tech trading is on. I haven't tried most super abilities yet, so all I can say so far is that super diplomat is great with tech trading on, and annihilator, hive, breeder, and manipulator look good.

2) Colonize lots of planets, but don't spend all your money because you'll need it to build your economy. The exact process here depends on a lot of game settings and takes some practice to get it right. On a map with only a few planets for you to colonize, buy your colony ships because time is the limiting factor. But on a map with many planets, buy or build factories and build scout ships and colony ships, because money is the limiting factor. If your colony ships have to travel far, consider researching engines. If there are lots of anomalies to grab, consider researching sensor 1 and building survey ships. Space warfare, space militarization, and universal translator can also be useful during colonization. But any research depends on the tech rate you chose, and research bonuses on early planets.

3) Jumpstart your economy. I've got two tricks here. The first is to use 1% military spending and 99% social spending during the colonization phase. This is so colonized planets can immediately begin building infrastructure. Planets that need to build ships clear their social queues and focus on military. This results in only slightly less military production than 100% military spending. The second trick is to reduce taxes at the start of the game to get 100% approval and double pop growth until you almost run out of money. Then jack taxes up to about 50% approval to get lots of money out of your large population. Try to keep your spending at 100%. Build markets on planets that will specialize in economy, but don't build labs and factories until you know you'll be able to fund their production. Stick to low-tech buildings because they have better ratios of power/productioncost and power/maintenance than high tech buildings. You can upgrade them later.

4) Survive through diplomacy. The most efficient way to stay alive is to prevent others from declaring war on you. If someone does attack you, it's a major setback even if you manage to survive. Increase your diplomacy ability (build diplomatic translators), set up trade routes with likely aggressors, choose an alignment to match theirs, trade techs and treaties, give gifts if relations get low, and increase your military rating. This can be done cheaply by building cargo hulls filled with weapons.

This is the one trick that's really exploiting the AI. "Diplomacy ability" and matched alignments are meaningless to a human player, and a smart player would see through the cargo hull ruse. Setting all AIs to max aggression could make the game much harder if it removes this trick.

5) Tech trade. Buy from one AI a tech that many other AIs do not have (preferably pay with a tech that other AIs do have). Then sell that new tech to all AIs that can pay you something for it. The end result of this transaction is that you've got more tech and more money than you had before, and you've evened the playing field among the AIs. You can take this strategy to the extreme by using it as your sole source of tech (so you don't have to build labs), and a major source of money (so you need fewer markets). I think tech trading alone can win you the game, so I often play with it off.

6) Big shifts in spending. Decide what your immediate needs are, and then achieve them as soon as possible by using 100% spending in the appropriate area. This will allow you to immediately fill a weakness, or quickly capitalize on an advantage. You can use the 99% social and 1% military trick here, too. For example, say that you want to go to war. First, research weapon, defense, engine, and miniaturization techs at 100% science spending. Once you have those techs, switch to 100% military to build lots of ships with the new techs. Then when you have enough ships, send them towards the target. As they're moving, research logistics and soldiering techs. When you reach the target, you'll have all top-of-the-line ships with high logistics and soldiering. If you had used 50% research and 50% military the whole time, some ships would have been completed too early (and would be armed with old tech), and some would be completed too late, and would be just leaving your planets. There is one drawback to 100% military spending; it causes more wastage due to overproducing ships. So I will sometimes tune my military spending so my most productive planet wastes nothing, and divert the rest to science spending.

7) Attack. Acquiring more planets is the fastest way to become more powerful, it's faster than researching and building advanced planetary improvements or economy starbases, so you should not wait until after stock markets and industrial sectors to go on the offense. A new planet produces more taxes, industry, and tech, and you get a free tech and whatever military resources the planet currently had. Plus, a successful assault is easy if you're prepared for it. Obviously, build lots of ships that counter theirs and transports. Move your fleets into position near enemy planets and then declare war. You don't have to wipe them out on the first turn, but the goal is to hit them hard before they can react. This is especially easy if their fleets are out of position due to other wars. Planets are generally lightly defended, so attack them and avoid enemy combat fleets when possible. Fast ships are still very useful in DA, though they're weaker and more expensive than in DL.

The problem here isn't that the AI can't counter a surprise attack, it's that there is nothing in the game that can counter it. The attacker has major advantages: he's prepared, he chooses the time and place of the fight, his ships are near the defender's planets, and the defender has no advantages. There is no way the defender can win if their militaries are evenly matched. Compare GC2 to Civilization 4, which has a wide range of bonuses to strength, movement, diplomacy, and economy for the defender. Offensive war is still a powerful strategy in that game.

8) International politics. Identify which civs are major threats, which are likely allies, and which are easy targets, and then treat them accordingly. Appease the threats just enough to keep them off your back and pay them to start wars with each other so they waste resources. Help out your allies so they will be useful if you need them. I like to trade military technologies to them so they will be strong in the short term, and no threat to me in the long run. To easy targets, I like to trade techs that give planetary improvements. They'll have nice stuff when I conquer them. In general, try to play the balance of power. Make sure your strength is increasing quickly (by conquering the easy targets without interference), but the other major powers are too busy fighting each other. If the balance breaks down, try to steal the winner's success by joining their side and taking some of the spoils.

Reply #52 Top

THIS is awesome feedback!

Reply #53 Top
Yeah, I agree with nullspace's additional strategies.

And yes, turning tech trading off (imo) makes the game twice as hard. For one, you suddenly have to worry about researching yourself, which means building research buildings, etc. nullspace's point #5 describes perfectly how I play with this option enabled.

And also nullspace's point 7. I meant that destroying a civ in one turn was ideal, but really if you can even knock out half of their planets to start you will win. The AI doesn't recognize that a strength of an empire isn't in military rating, it is in planetary tiles. It will continue to fight on as it gets strangled under no economy, and it doesn't understand that if it has less planets, it can't replace its lost ships. There is very little you can do on defense, which is why the trick is to use diplomacy and gifts to never have anyone declare war on you (in this case, the best defense is a good diplomat) - so you are always the attacker short term.

His point #8 is what I was trying to get at overall. That is how you have to play the game. You need to be actively manipulating all of the other civs to your advantage, so that then you are able to pick off the straglers. Attack attack attack to expand, but seem very peaceful.
Reply #54 Top
There is very little you can do on defense,


I *swear* by military starbases. Stick a military SB on HIS turf and defend that. You will slice through his fleets even with far inferior ships. And the idiot AI keeps rebuilding defenders even when you've got a fleet sitting right outside his orbit, so after the first wave you seldom even encounter fleets at all. Micro Repair Bots helps.

That's where I'm different from the other strategies. I can't fight two races, but I can fight one. And you have to have a military anyway.
Reply #55 Top
So it sounds like the diplomat super ability is the "TEH WIN!11!" button for DA...

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to use other abilities to make it interesting.

For those who might be interested, there's a freeware game called "C-evo" that's based on Civ2 and the idea of total ruleset parity with the computer AI. So no galciv style diplomacy where by giving gifts, treaties, and so on you can *force* the AI to act against its interests. Not that I'm saying this would be a good idea in DA, since it's fun to manipulate the AI...

Also, it might be interesting to experiment with the planetary improvement xml to boost planetary defense. I'm at work right now so I can't check, but IIRC you should be able to assign orbital fleet manager properties to the default colony/captial building so that planetary fleets are enabled by default. You could then make the Oribat Fleet Manager boost fleet hitpoints or something. If you're indifferent to the metaverse, this could be an easy way of reducing the overwhelming advantage of a sneak attack.

Cheers

h
Reply #56 Top
Don't know if it's been said, but the biggest factor for winning at over maso is the use of anomoly cheese. Set at abundant, it's very easy for the player to gobble up tons of anomolies early. Do this on a larger galaxy, with fewer opponents and you have a huge advantage. (especially if you build a decent number of fast survey ships)

This allows you to keep spending high, and develop tech & planets.

Frogboy, if you want to cut down on people saying how easy it is to win, fix this. Either cut down the +2500BC bonuses, or program the AI to build survey ships early on.
Reply #57 Top
(All DL)

I do a significant number of these things plus a trick or two more. The majority of the basics are there, and they are enough to win every DL suicidal game...The one comment I really wanted to add was that the AI needs some adjustment based on map size and planet count as well. Fighting a war against someone who only has five or ten planets is primarily a tactical battle, fighting someone who has fifty planets is a strategic battle.

A human player builds a strategy for a whole front/war. Fleet A is evaluated against it's ability to handle star system A, fleet B against star system B. Avoid star system C, it has a fleet you don't want to fight yet. Attack star system D, even though it is well defended, because the planets there have a lot of useful tiles. Wait a turn on E, until you can get a ship in front of it to intercept enemy transports seeking to re-conquer the planet. You have extra ships aimed for F, re-route them and rally for attacking G, which needs more ships. Then you take it all together, look for visibility holes, figure out how to reduce the number of ships you need for intercepts, etc. If you do it right, you hit all of the supercritical planets and sweep anything that is poorly defended leaving the AI with an unsupportable rump state.

The AI seems to have a purely tactical view. It goes after fleet A or planet A, but doesn't consider whether planet B is a more important planet or how over/under strength it is for the attack. It doesn't look at whether planet A leaves it over extended in terms of covering the whole front. It doesn't check to see if you have a transport in range that might be able to take the planet back the next turn. It doesn't hold up one part of the front, while another part advances. It doesn't re-evaluate whether it should move rally points at the end of each turn based upon how the front has moved. It doesn't go in a snag a ship that is headed for rally to give it the slight extra boost it needs to deal with an issue just to the side of it's rally path. It doesn't seem to anticipate how the front is going to look in a few turns. It definitely doesn't use this information to inform it's diplomatic stance regarding peace.

To see this difference, you really have to get the planet count up to 20+ per player. The larger the count, the more profound the difference. A 40-50 planet count on each side is ideal to see this issue play out. I think this very much plays into the difference between how a human defends his planets and how the AI defends his planets. After a human figures out a strategic offense/defense you quickly realize that there is no point to leaving defenders in orbit around planets...AI ships should never be that deep in your territory during a war.

Unfortunately, I suspect this is a bridge too far for a computer AI in a game with this many potential choices on any given turn...

"

Reply #58 Top
wow. I say bingo for entropy's analysis: great players harness the AI's and exploit their superior production/research to make it their own... it would be hard to fight against another diplomatically superior ai...

one little change I suggest:
as soon as you're building a fleet that looks like it perfectly counters one of the AI's fleets... the AI's should speak up: Hey your ships look like their designed to wipe out my ships... I don't like that. You need to build ships that wipe out the Drengin designs, not ours... Or even preemptively strike you for it if those ships are anywhere near the border...

but that might be a really tall order for the AI.
Reply #59 Top
There are definitely things that Frogboy can change to make the game harder/prevent cheese probably without a huge amount of work.

Getting rid of of ethical choice return treasury to zero flaw.

Poss lower diplomacy amounts on there coresponding techs.

Make AI more aggressive.

Lessen the effect of artificial alignment alliance blocks. The AI's needs to expand to survive no matter who they conquer.

And loads more...

Isn't the 100% evil eco building just specific to that planet not the entire empire?
Reply #60 Top
Diplomacy still remains one of the game's weak points. The diplomatic system is probably much too simplified... after all, no amount of sweet talking will keep people from wanting to have what you have... they'll just be nicer to you to your face.
Reply #61 Top
Diplomacy should be adjusted. Yes, good races will favor evil, and evil will favor evil, but there are ways to balance this so that the human can't take advantage of this.

Let's say the good human starts taking out the evil AI's. Well, for maybe the first one or two evil AI's he gets a pass from the good AI's. But after that, his increasing power, and the threat of upsetting the galactic balance should count against him, even if he continues to conquer the evil civs. At this point perhaps the only way he could appease the other races would be to cede them systems he's conquered, to keep the galactic balance (and NOT ones in the middle of his empire which he can easily influence flip). And if he ever attacks a good civ, he gets a major dip penalty for attacking a race of the same alignment. It should become harder and harder for him to keep peace as he gets more and more powerful. This isn't just simply gang up on the human because it is based upon the human's actions and relative power.

Another thing - I think morale should take a major hit if you ever attack an ally - and the longer the alliance the greater the hit. In fact, unless you bring the war to a close quickly, you should be crippled by it. That would make one really decide if an alliance is really worth it, short run vs. long run. Yes, that limits freewheeling backstabbing but it is more realistic and would make the game more difficult.
Reply #62 Top
I'd like it if the AIs would say one thing and do another on occasion. IE, have an ally who doesn't follow through on an alliance, or backstabs you in it. Or an AI that says all sorts of nice things to your face while spamming you with agents and preparing for war at the same time... or paying other people to do it.

Here's a thought: remove the requirement of a "close" relationship for an alliance (though AIs would still refuse them if they don't have any good reason to have you as backup and vice versa), and let the relationship slider move about even during an alliance. Peeve off your ally enough, and he's going to find one way or another to screw you over.

Basically, I want the AIs to be sneaky, devious bastards all on their own, depending on their race. After all, the Drengin are fiendishly pragmatic and the Korx will only do things as long as it profits them, but the Arceans are honourable and trustworthy.

Wow, we just hijacked this thread.
Reply #63 Top
Right now it seems as thought the AIs at higher levels are super-powered beings who happen to be childlike and gullible when it comes to negotiations.


Yeah diplomacy has unfourtanetely extremely high effect on AI and I capitalise on that in every game.

But giving them high diplomacy would not make the AI much better, it would just make them less exploitable. It is still moronic when it comes to warfare and the only reason it's so hard to win (for me atleast) on the very high levels is because of the huge bonuses it gets which allows for massive numbers of ships.

If the AI is to get better it must react better to military aggressions and handle its military resources better than it currently does. In other areas such as economic, colony management and research it does already a good job imo.
Reply #64 Top

Fourth - Hit early, hit hard. As soon as my diplomacy research is done, sometimes before it is done - I pick an empire I want to take out. Figure out what weapons they use, and build a fleet to counter. Count all of their worlds, and build enough transports to wipe out the whole civilization in one turn. You simply MUST take out at least one AI in the first year and a half or you won't have enough territory to compete with the enemy. When it is time to strike - DO NOT DECLARE WAR! Not worth getting a negative diplomacy modifier. Instead, move all of your fighters and transports next to their worlds, and put a trade embargo on them. They will "know what you are doing", and declare war on you. But, they won't attack on the turn they declare war. So, after they declare war, wipe out every world. You probably won't wipe out all their ships, but that doesn't matter, territory is more valuable than ships.

Well, I hope you haven't the UP law that force ships  to neutral ground when war is declared ...

Reply #65 Top
The problem here isn't that the AI can't counter a surprise attack, it's that there is nothing in the game that can counter it.


This is only partially true. If you are alert and watch your neighbours then a surprise attack would be alot less a surprise and even you can flip the table by attacking before they do.

As Ive mentioned earlier the AI should react when it sees large fleets moving towards his planets. Warn maybe once and if they are still moving towards their planets then declare war and prepare for the attack. With the engine nerf, this is now easier to do.

Ofcourse this would mean that it would have to have scouts with good sensor abilities but I dont see why that would be a problem for the AI to have.
Reply #66 Top
If you are alert and watch your neighbours then a surprise attack would be alot less a surprise and even you can flip the table by attacking before they do.


That was exactly my point. The only counter to a surprise attack is to surprise attack them faster or better. It's a best strategy, and it forces you to play one specific way if you want to do well. You could teach the AI to do it and that would make the game harder, but I don't think it would make the game more fun.

There should be some way to cheaply and effectively counter a surprise attack, and that strategy should have its own weakness. As it is, combat in GC2 greatly favors the attacker, and the surprise attack is the most extreme example.

Reply #67 Top
That was exactly my point. The only counter to a surprise attack is to surprise attack them faster or better. It's a best strategy, and it forces you to play one specific way if you want to do well. You could teach the AI to do it and that would make the game harder, but I don't think it would make the game more fun.


Yeah youre right but I also meant that the AI could attack IF it saw tendencies that you are trying to surprise attack him. A so called preemptive strike.

For example if it sees you amassing and moving a large fleet towards him then it should react immediately rather than waiting for you to sit outside his planets before reacting.

I dont understand why this would be a problem since obviously there are borders in this game (the race colors on the map). More over the AI can obviously detect foreign empires transports close to his planet, as Ive seen the warning message myself, so the next step is then to have a matching action for this observation.

And this action need to come swiftly and be strong. So for example if it sees a relative large number of ships (with transports) XX distance from any of its colonies then it first warns the offender and then, if the ships are either still there or closer, a war is declared and ships are sent to intercept incoming fleet immediately.

Right now the response is way too weak and way too late.

Ofcourse this would not be easy to implement since you can, in some cases, have very close borders so a defensive fleet could be misstaken for an offensive fleet. But transports are rarely used in defence so there are indications to look for.

Reply #68 Top
wow. I say bingo for entropy's analysis: great players harness the AI's and exploit their superior production/research to make it their own...


I agree with this, but there's ways other than just diplomacy to do that. You can tech steal, influence flip, etc.. This idea holds true for all kinds of computer games, like CnC where you use engineers to capture the AI's buildings, or Red Alert 2 where you use Yuri to capture the AI's units, or Age of Empires & Rise of Nations where you use monks or spies to convert them.

There's also the principle that holds across the game spectrum of turtling up and repeatedly repelling the AI until you're able to mount an attack. In Starcraft you could repel a Zerg AI simply by stationing a bunch of siege tanks on your base perimeter, and the idiot AI would just send wave after wave and die.

And then there's the third principle of just plain outsmarting a dumb AI.

Then finally there's a combination of all of them, like when you take on multiple AI's you rush one and then turtle up against the remaining ones. So it's not just a diplomacy issue--this is not Civilization. Heck, even in Civ3, where the whole tech whoring thing started, you could still pick wars and turtle up just to get the Great Leaders.
Reply #69 Top
As it is, combat in GC2 greatly favors the attacker, and the surprise attack is the most extreme example.


This is true, unfourtanetely, but it doesnt have to be. The reason for this situation is because the military starbases are too weak.

The influence range is too small wich means you have to build tons of military bases to cover your space and the bonuses arent enough. But if the devs start paying some attention to (military) starbases they could become far more useful than they currently are.

Even small changes would go far for making them more useuful. Like increasing their influence range and bonuses aswell as increasing the number of hps they have so they are not so easy to destroy.

But I think this is a dead horse as I myself and many, many others have voiced their concerns about the relative uselesness of starbases, specifically military starbases, and to my knowledge nothing has been done or even answered by the devs why starbases will stay in their relative useless and unimaginative state.

Also does the AI ever build military starbases? I dont recall ever seeing any.
Reply #70 Top
But I think this is a dead horse as I myself and many, many others have voiced their concerns about the relative uselesness of starbases, specifically military starbases, and to my knowledge nothing has been done or even answered by the devs why starbases will stay in their relative useless and unimaginative state.


Maybe it's because they're getting mixed messages from their user base. Many people are in my camp and believe they are useful.
Reply #71 Top


Also does the AI ever build military starbases? I dont recall ever seeing any.



Yup, it definitely does. Generally it uses them defensively, to cover the homeworld or other vulnerable spots. I recall attacking comparitively low-tech Iconians in a previous game only to find my snazzy high-tech fleet blasted to shrapenel in orbit because I'd failed to notice the three (!) military starbases he'd built nearby.

Generally speaking military starbases seem like a pretty good defensive option to me, really. They have sufficient range to cover a system, sometimes even two.
Reply #72 Top
Isn't the 100% evil eco building just specific to that planet not the entire empire?


It's for the entire empire.


Also does the AI ever build military starbases?


I do see this, but I don't think I have ever seen an upgraded one, so it's still pretty useless.
Reply #73 Top
I do see this, but I don't think I have ever seen an upgraded one, so it's still pretty useless.


Generally speaking they are upgraded when I see them being used for defense, as opposed to for range extension. They may not be upgraded enough, but I've seen the AI use them to pretty good effect from time to time.
Reply #74 Top
In the first real game I played of GCII I camped outside several planets of one my opponents. As I moved my ships into position I kept thinking that something would happen to stop me. Surely, the AI won't just sit there, right?? Then I was sure once I attacked (thus declaring war) my ships would move back across the border or something. Nope. This is such an obvious tactic to use it seems crazy that the AI is oblivious of it.

I like the way borders worked in CivIV better. Unless your allied (or something) you shouldn't be able to just move in warships. It'd probably be easier to have rules (or an AI diplomacy that threatens war when the border is crossed) to stop this, than trying to have the AI realise the tactic and try to counter it.
Reply #75 Top
This is such an obvious tactic to use it seems crazy that the AI is oblivious of it.


It's not, what difficulty were you playing on?