Well posted again. It seems the only thing left to say is... "GOOD LUCK!"

Thank you and keep in touch, we'll certainly be around. Now if we can only accomplish something useful...   

I was reading the constitution, then I found this thread. I must admit, even though I'm a uni student reading politics I was dismayed at the amount of political theory debate that is going into a fictional council offering input into a non-shareholder game.

Having said that, i can't resist sticking my ore in

Lets see if I've got this second clause straight.

First: of the four founding members we are voting for two representatives.
Second: Future representatives are to be chosen by the council itself, so this voting is a one-off
Third: the council, as a priority, will try to recruit members from small empires or people who aren't members of empires.

First point: the people on the council; are they acting with out weight but none of out input (true representatives) or are they acting with out weight, with out total input (advocates) or somewhere inbetween?

Second point: It is traditional for the elective process to be finalized before a body becomes active, is this council an interim for us to finalise such questions democratically, or the finished article?

Third point: This isn't so important, but are the 'minorities' getting two representatives same as if they were an empire? Or will we get one representative for SMALL empires and one for NO empires?

I wouldn't blame someone for ignoring this as these look like questions the council itself should answer, though the first point is probably something that should be borne in mind.

Wow. I've been quietly observing this thread and I am fascinated by the amount of thought (and words!) that you all are pouring into this concept.
First of all I am quite surprised that Wheeloffire hasn't made his voice heard throughout all of this... an interesting thing in itself, of course.
My main reason for chiming in on all of this is purely to give 'kudos' of a sort to those of you who have really been trying to put an intelligent effort into this idea. Personally the Metaverse still doesn't mean much to me, but that's mainly due to lack of internet, and my machine at work cannot even start the game up, so the option to start a Met game from work is dead in the water. That being said, is all of this effort necessary for the final outcome which you seek? Bear in mind that reading through your posts almost causes my brain to shut down because of all the 'clutter' which arises when trying to put your thoughts onto 'paper', almost akin to reading 'legalese'. Now don't take the comment in the wrong way because I didn't mean it in a bad way, it's just that trudging through all of this can get a little... confusing.
All in all, I just wanted to respond and let you guys know that what you are doing is appreciated, even if I am not a die hard Metaverse player, mainly because you are showing an extreme amount of support and effort in backing this game and her community. Good job, good effort and may you succeed in your endeavor with this.

of the four founding members we are voting for two representatives.

Correct

Future representatives are to be chosen by the council itself, so this voting is a one-off

Future Reps. of empires should be chosen by their empires, whether this is through a vote or not is dependant upon the empire. the council I believe, should validate that, said empire is active and has the dedication to represenet all meta players. As far as unaligned players go. The council would like to have two reps. to speak on the behalf of their unaligned breathren.

the council, as a priority, will try to recruit members from small empires or people who aren't members of empires

Correct

the people on the council; are they acting with out weight but none of out input (true representatives) or are they acting with out weight, with out total input (advocates) or somewhere inbetween?

Call me dense, but I don't quite get the gist of your question. The council members, as chosen by their empires shall have equal voting power within the council. They should not only have the interests of their own empire, but those of all meta players in mind when making decisions. That said, I believe issues will be discussed within each empire to assist the reps. in conveying their empires interests.

It is traditional for the elective process to be finalized before a body becomes active, is this council an interim for us to finalise such questions democratically, or the finished article?

I believe the first iteration of the council is already being elected by their empires for the most part. The council will evolve as other empires and unaligned reps. show their desire to be part of the council. The nature of this evolution has yet to be determined, but I think a fair and just system of admittance and participation will be hashed out.

This isn't so important, but are the 'minorities' getting two representatives same as if they were an empire? Or will we get one representative for SMALL empires and one for NO empires?

Small empires at first, I would think would get a rep. to convey their inerests. As these empires grow and flourish their representation will be expanded. Unaligned players are a larger group than any single empire. That's why I believe they will have two reps.

Now having made these statements, I am at this point in no way able to speak for the council. It doesn't even exist yet(though it's getting close). Some of the above are my views and not in any way indicative of the way said council may operate. I welcome any comments, that are contrary to mine.

I think once the council is up and running, many of these questions will be addressed expeditiously.

All in all, I just wanted to respond and let you guys know that what you are doing is appreciated,

Thank you EvilS, Several people have dedicated a lot of time and effort into making this happen and I think better overall interest in both the Meta and the game shall be rewarding not only to those involved, but to the entire player base as a whole.

Long live the Metaverse.

First of we are trying our best to keep it is simple as possible. We try to use KISS, but it just doesnt work with some people at times. Plus, a lot of people who post havent read the other threads so we have to regurgitate info back to them over and over again. No offense meant to anyone, your inpur has been VERY helpful and is really appreicated. We are glad to see that the Meta and thse forums still have members that are intrested enough to show concern. Thanks Stormbringer fo you imput, we are very concerned about the amount of red tape, and 'clutter' that will be put into this. Thats why we have tried our best to keep the "Constitution" simple and to the point. Most decisions will lie in the Council, some will be submited to public poll, but there wont be any strict measures or counter acts.

And hobbit, here are the answers to your questions and well my view on your post. You pretty much got the outline of our little "Constitution". The reps will not act completly as their empire commands them(they arent mindless), they will use their own reason and logic, to decide what the best intrest is for ALL of the Meta. Sure they will probably try to portray more of their Empire's views, but in the end we hope they will look at the bigger picture. We try our best to recruit those unalligned or with a small empire, but the activity of the Meta has plumeted much, theres people on the Top Ten that havent responded. As for our decisions, all voting will be done by the Reps(unless deemed otherwise), ideas and input will be taken directly from you, then each idea will go through a condensation and filtering process by the Reps(means we chose what we feel best), and then we vote on it(or argue about it). Afterwards we present our decision to you guys and try to actually make some changes. A lot of stuff might happen "behind the scenes", but we will keep you guys updated as much as possible. It is your Meta after all, not just our.

Whew... DethAdder beat me too it again.

heh.. Sorry bout that TGE. I had been working on that post for better than a half hour, actually refreshed in another window to make sure no answers were posted before I posted mine.  

Its okay, yours was better than mine anyway   

I am quite surprised that Wheeloffire hasn't made his voice heard throughout all of this

I think Wheel's gone missing I trust that just means he's terribly busy IRL and otherwise OK and will be back here soon.

hobbitween01, in post #77, brings up some excellent questions that I feel need answering. My response has taken me close to three hours to write. I know this is a very long and complicated post, but I feel it’s important for anyone interested in this topic to read this carefully, it explains a lot. I know it will take some time to read and digest, but believe me, nowhere near the time it took me to write it. BTW at the end of this rather long post is a question I have of all interested, think of it as a quiz to see if you read the whole thing.

First: of the four founding members we are voting for two representatives. Second: Future representatives are to be chosen by the council itself, so this voting is a one-off Third: the council, as a priority, will try to recruit members from small empires or people who aren't members of empires.

First: Yes. Each of the four founding empires are selecting two representatives each.

Second: Yes. This initial selection of two representatives by each of the founding empires is a one time deal.

No. Future representatives will not be chosen by the council itself. It's the method of choosing future representatives that will be defined by the council. The exact nature of this future representative selection process (dare I say elections) hasn't really been discussed, however I can guarantee that there will be a very strong democratic (the process not the party) component to it.

Maybe. It's possible that the council may want to "draft" another representative or two from the pool of metaverse players that are either not in any empire or in a small empire during the interim prior to the definition of the future representative selection process.

Third: A priority (not necessarily the only priority) of the council is the definition of the aforementioned future representative selection process (elections). A primary goal of said process is that it should be truly representative of all metaverse players. Since at this point the large empires are represented, that leaves small empire and unaligned players disenfranchised. It’s this issue that the last sentence of the “constitution" was meant to address. Reading that sentence I can understand how the intended meaning wasn’t properly conveyed. I guess that any 50 word sentence should be wrong by definition so let me give this passage another shot.

“A priority of the council is the determination of a representative selection process that is representative of *all* metaverse players.”

This certainly follows the KISS principle far better than the 50 word sentence it replaces. One of the points that I was trying to make with the previous passage was that it’s the council that defines the future representative selection process. There had been suggestions that this process be totally defined within the constitution itself. It was to stave off this potential semantic disaster that I worded the passage the way that I did. However, the suggested replacement passage still contains the statement that it’s the council that determines the future representative selection process. The reason I use “representative selection process” instead of the more simpler term “elections” is that there is some possibility that the ability of large empires to directly appoint a limited subset of representatives may be retained by the future “representative selection process”.

First point: the people on the council; are they acting with out weight but none of out input (true representatives) or are they acting with out weight, with out total input (advocates) or somewhere in-between?

The people that will be selected by the four founding empires will be acting with the weight and authority of those they represent which are the four founding empires, no more, no less. There’s also some assumed commonality that metaverse player in the four founding empires have with *all* metaverse players, but we cannot presume to speak for all even though a lot of our concerns are the same as the concerns of all.

Second point: It is traditional for the elective process to be finalized before a body becomes active, is this council an interim for us to finalize such questions democratically, or the finished article?

I think I partially answered this in point three above. I think the closest answer is that this council is an interim for us to finalize such question democratically but hopefully without as much pain as been evidenced by this thread. We seemed to be having such difficulty with something that in effect was little more than a preamble that I felt it would be truly impossible to define anything as complex as an elective process within a thread like this. I felt that in order to make any real progress at all we needed the benefit provided by representation which is to streamline the process. However, with that all said, it’s a mistake to think that the only purpose of this council is to define the elective process of the council that will replace it. There are certainly a number of easy things (low hanging fruit) that can be done by the council as currently constituted. I have every intention to do everything reasonable to improve the state of the metaverse ASAP.

Third point: This isn't so important, but are the 'minorities' getting two representatives same as if they were an empire? Or will we get one representative for SMALL empires and one for NO empires?

Actually this is a very important point and the answer to this question is yet another reason that the definition of the elective process cannot be included in the constitution itself. The answer is, I have absolutely no clue. The answer to this question requires knowledge of the population and distribution of metaverse players among empires large and small as well as unaligned players. For all I know the bulk of representatives should come from small empires or unaligned players. I suspect that at least half of a truly representative metaverse council should probably consist of representatives of this group. The only true way to tell what groups of players should get how much representation is with a census. We currently have no way to take such a census. Our best possibility is the AltMeta, but even that needs change to have even the chance of accomplishing a true census. Currently the AltMeta data only includes players that are in the top 50 empires, no unaligned players, no small empires. So we’re in a situation that we need a council to make changes to the AltMeta so we can figure out how to elect representatives to the council.

So the bottom line of all these words (there must be over a thousand in this post alone, for extra credit someone could count them, perhaps TGE, he seems to have an excessive amount of energy ) is the following suggested replacement sentence for the last sentence of the constitution.

“A priority of the council is to take a census of all metaverse players and determine an elective process that is representative of *all* metaverse players.”

My God, all this for one sentence. And this is presumably keeping it simple.

So here’s the quiz. Should I make this replacement, or should I just let sleeping dogs lie?

take a census of all metaverse players

I like this idea - but is there a practical way to accomplish it?

I like this idea - but is there a practical way to accomplish it?

This shouldn't be the first time people are noticing this. I've mentioned this in some detail on at least three prior occasions.

But to answer your question, I think there could be within the context of the AltMeta. We certainly can get data related to the numbers of people submitting games, how long ago their last submission was and other such data for the people that are currently included in the AltMeta data. The bigger question is can the AltMeta be changed to include *all* metaverse players. At the moment only Kryo can answer this question both as to if it can be done at all and if so how difficult it will be. (He'll probably answer this before I'm finished typing).   

If this can't be done within the context of the AltMeta then we have a much more difficult problem that I can only see being answered by conventional polling means with the potential of huge inaccuracies and the need for continual updating. I'm sure it won't be pretty.

In all likelyhood our ability to take an accurate census may indeed affect the kind of elective process the council will select.

are they acting with out weight but none of out input (true representatives) or are they acting with out weight, with out total input (advocates)

DethAdder, I'm pretty sure that hobbitween01 is talking about Edmund Burke's 18th century letter to his constituents when he asked whether a legislative representative should act as a delegate (do your best to do what the voters want) or a trustee (do what you think is best for your voters).

When I used to use this stuff in the classroom, it was a deliberate red herring b/c IRL elected officials need to make compromises between these roles far more often than they might stick to one pole. From what I can tell, the proposed council will by necessity lean towards the delegate role b/c we lack a census, this is a game, etc.

I think there could be within the context of the AltMeta

I was parallel typing with Mumble, but he reminds me of other "related" stuff I asked elsewhere re Metaverse-only communication venues.

I thought the core motivation for this movement was to encourage some changes to the "official" Metaverse? I don't like having to sign in lots of places in my browser and the Core does not recognize my cookies from here. I assume this AltMeta has similar limitations.

Mumble, are you talking about using AltMeta as a tool (means to an end in the "official" Metaverse) or trying to drive change at the AltMeta to make it "the home" of this new council?

No, I just misread you. The wording "take a census of all metaverse players" made me think you meant actually trying to contact everyone playing in the Metaverse, rather than gathering statistics from the Metaverse data.

It might be more accurate to say something like this:

“A priority of the council is to study the existing Metaverse data and use the results to determine an elective process that is representative of *all* metaverse players.”

I'm not arguing semantics for the sake of semantics; I just think this states the intent more clearly.

I don't like having to sign in lots of places in my browser and the Core does not recognize my cookies from here.

As they're two different websites, that's not even technically possible. At the Core though you can just as easily have it remember your login so you rarely ever need to give it a thought.

I assume this AltMeta has similar limitations.

The altmeta has no login or anything like that, it's just a public listing of data gathered and reinterpreted from the official meta.

whether a legislative representative should act as a delegate (do your best to do what the voters want) or a trustee (do what you think is best for your voters).

I didn't notice this interpretation in my earlier post and I would have to agree that there's always a mix of both, but at least initially each representative does indeed have a very good idea of precisely who his constituency is, it's the empire that selected him. Also, given that this is a very new thing, and that most intelligent folks will have a wait and see attitude about it’s benefit, I personally feel obligated to stay as close as reasonable to the wishes of my empire. As this becomes more established, and if representatives are elected “at large” then there’s not such intimate knowledge of precisely who one’s constituency is, and clearly it will become more of the latter.


BTW GW, are we having "fun" yet?   

The altmeta has no login or anything like that, it's just a public listing of data gathered and reinterpreted from the official meta.

How difficult would it be to capture data for all metaverse players instead of only those in the top 50 empires?

Mumble, are you talking about using AltMeta as a tool (means to an end in the "official" Metaverse) or trying to drive change at the AltMeta to make it "the home" of this new council?

Um. Not totally sure of the question.

The AltMeta is something not controlled (or sanctioned) by Stardock. It can be changed of our own volition without requiring Stardock to change anything. However, there is no AltMeta without the "official" data from the real metaverse. What can be accomplished (again Kryo can correct me here) within the context of the AltMeta is a sorting of the official data so that we can display the data however we choose. This would allow us to have different "brackets" that have previously been discussed and should be attractive to folks that play games other than the gigantic military victory. There already is some census type data displayed within the metaverse for example how many "official" members an empire has and how many have submitted games over what time period.

I don't know if this answers your question but the AltMeta can be either or both things, an end in itself and a lever arm by which the council can demonstrate an ability to positively effect interest in the metaverse and thereby give it the clout that *may* make it something that Stardock *might* accept suggested changes in the "real" metaverse from.

“A priority of the council is to study the existing Metaverse data and use the results to determine an elective process that is representative of *all* metaverse players.”

I think we need the extension of the AltMeta data to all players to be truly useful. I think merely leaving it as "take a census" without mentioning the method (AltMeta) is less restrictive and certainly includes the method you mention but neither requires it nor excludes other methods. I find simply "take a census" more attractive from a KISS perspective.

Sounds good. I think that we need take care not to get "bogged down" in wording. The sooner we can get the council rolling, the better. Remember, this is not "The Constitution" or "The Magna Charter" (excuse my spelling) - so we don't need to worry too much about long term implications or details. These can be addressed as the need arises. Remember, anyone can withdraw from an empire that they fill is not meeting their needs and desires. Also, an empire can always withdrawl from the council if it feels that the council is not acting in the best interests of the Metaverse.

Brezelius

How difficult would it be to capture data for all metaverse players instead of only those in the top 50 empires?

Very. The trouble is that even as it stands now, the script has to actually load the entire page of the empire listings, exactly as you see it, and pick through it looking for manually-defined chunks of HTML to find the data it needs just to find the empire RSS feeds (it checks the meta scores there against those it recorded previously, and in turn reads the player RSS feeds it the score has changed). I had looked at doing unaligned players, but due to the variability of the meta pages and the fact that it takes so much time and server load already, I decided against it. It's not really feasible trying to gather more data from the metaverse as things stand right now, though we can make it do more with that same data once it has it.

I think that we need take care not to get "bogged down" in wording.

I do agree we don't need to get "bogged down" in wording. But at the moment we're not quite ready to do anything. We're still awaiting some official approvals as well as the results of the selection process. We do need to ratify this "constitution" in the four empires so I'm still looking for input on my suggestion.

Also, an empire can always withdrawl from the council if it feels that the council is not acting in the best interests of the Metaverse.

Yes and No. At the moment when the justification for the council's existence is the approval of the four founding empires, the withdrawal of an empire clearly means at least the invalidation of two of it's representatives and casts serious doubt about the validity of the council itself. Later on, dependent on the nature of the elective process, the withdrawal of a single empire, even a large one, may not mean much at all.

It's not really feasible trying to gather more data from the metaverse as things stand right now, though we can make it do more with that same data once it has it.

Very difficult and impossible are not quite the same thing. But I do understand your point. Also this really isn't the place for this kind of discussion. This kind of discussion is what the council is really all about (yes I know, I brought it up in the first place, my bad).

There's always time, money and functionality. You can pick any two of these you want (within reasonable limits) but the third will be dependent on the other two.

[edit] perhaps a census of all players is a one time or at least very infrequent occurance [/edit]

All right a couple of results to post. The Galactic Diplomats have approved of the metaverse council and have elected myself and DethAdder to be their representative. As an aside, voting is ongoing on the constitution as it stood this morning prior to any modification.

There also is an issue with the Orca's that some of you may already be aware of but before going into detail about it I would like to hear the official status from HCH and Arrakis.