So much has happened, i need to wake up earlier. Glad to see that this thread has already gone far. I like the changes made to my little preamble, and some of the new rules seem fair. However, i dont think many of our decisions will ever generate much resentment or the formation of pacts amongst the members to make sure something doesnt pass or does. I mean this is still a game, and hopefully people wont be too caught up in the political nature of things to start viewing their position as powerful, and therefore become power hungry.

As for a small remedy to the Status Quo thing, why not have leaders. These leaders as i have already said would then decide that if the council can not solve an issue, whether the issue is worth submiting to public poll. And the public poll precentages required for the pass will be dictated by those leaders. This would make sure that the bill would still have a chance for passing, and it will avoid the involvement of the Council on such a touchy matter. Hopefully this rule would never have to be intacted or even used, but just in case it does something like this shoudl be considered.

As for a limit for members, yes there should be a limit of people on the council. That way the group could be managable and that issues would not take months of endless debate to resolve. However, this number would not be set in stone, the Council would be able to change it as the Meta increases in size. I agree with the amount of representatives. So at least that part has been solved. Further rules on this can be dictated by the council. But for now the Empires should decide who to send.

As for those two sentances i put in. I did it to make sure that the Document could always be changed and reviewed. If someone who agreed to it before does not agree to it anymore would mean that theres something wrong. And therefore the rules of this document would stop functioning untill reviewed and accepted(that is if the opposition chooses to remain). We dont want people to leave the Council fumming, it would make us lose members, and possibly hinder our position in the community. If someone disagrees they should be accomadated to somehow, the Council could still keep functioning but not with this set of rules. Thats basically what i meant.

Mumble has already given a good answer to Snathi's question. I have something to add, something simple. We will give you a chance to actually gain medals and gain rank without having to play by the strict rules of the current Meta. As for the approval of the Document, it should be a popular decision, though the Emperors would have to sign the document(or something like that). Ffor the Constitution be valid i think that the metaverse players should decide whether it fits their views and wants.

Although i like the input we are getting. Look at how much has already been writen on just the first paragraph. We have started discussing some other things, but very little of those. This could easily become to much.

Lastly i have found one more seemingly active empire, The Quorth Empire has a large player base, and it is still recieving scores according to the AltMeta. But i cant seem to reach their Empire, since their site isnt functioning.

TGE(hope you don't mind the abbr.) As I stated in another thread. I have tried to get a hold of several of the Qourth members. Either they haven't posted or the email system here stops me. You'd think by now atleast one of their active members would have seen the thread(s) addressed to them. If you can get an email out through the system, I found Darkone to have posted on the forums in the past. He's a senator, though last submission was mid-Nov.

The constitution seems to be coming along, just gotta be careful not to get too caught up in complexity. Needs to be simple to understand as well as implement. There is some good ideas on here already. I don't feel the need to get involved much, since most of my own feelings have already been expressed by others. Good job all   Keep it up.

Long live the Metaverse.

As for a small remedy to the Status Quo thing, why not have leaders.

Sure the council can have leaders if that's what the council chooses to do. I don't think it's necessary to specify the existence and function of council leaders in the constitution.

In my mind the constitution is something that states the purpose behind a group, the authority by which the group functions and the rules under which the group operates. That's pretty much it.

So far the purpose has been stated to increase interest and participation in the metaverse. This is simple, stated and done.

As for the approval of the Document, it should be a popular decision,

I disagree.

The authority for the council will have been (future pluperfect tense) the approval of the four "founding" (hence the name) empires. Since the approval came from the founding empires and the representatives come from the founding empires then the ratification of the constitution needs to be done by the founding empires. Since both metaverse players in other empires or unaligned have not given approval, nor are they represented at this time, I don't think it makes sense to put this constitution and thereby the existence of the council subject to an ill defined "popular" vote. Later on when we have a census of metaverse player’s and a method defined by which future representatives will be chosen, then we can ask for “popular” approval. At this time it doesn’t make sense.

Look at how much has already been written on just the first paragraph. We have started discussing some other things, but very little of those. This could easily become too much.

That's why I'm suggesting that the Constitution as I wrote in post #21 is all that's needed at this time. I believe anything else can be decided by the council itself. I'd like to hear other people's opinion, but I for one have had about all the dicking around with this that I care to deal with.

The Quorth Empire has a large player base

This has been discussed in one of the two other threads. I put up a list of the top 11 active empires and attempts have been made to contact them to no avail. If in fact they do have an active constituency then I’m sure we will add them as a group once we dig a few of them up. Again, in my mind this is not something that should delay the whole process.

Yes, i think that it should be enough for now, unless someone objects?

As for Qourth if there are some of them around they should come across the threads sooner or later.

Mumble's nagging me to participate in this stuff more directly. I'm still reading the "Anyone Out There" thread and beginning to think I need to start a dedicated notes file. I've not read a bit in this thread beyond noting its extreme youth.

You all are using the word "constitution," and I'm pretty sure most of you are US born or know more about US history than we "natives" tend to know about others. Please keep in mind that the framers of the US Constitution took *months* to draft their document, and the crowd was freakin' rich with genius literati.

I trust that when I've finally caught up, I'll see at least a 21st-century semblance of deliberate thinking...

Yea, that's the problem with forum layouts. You get things in disjointed spurts. Hopefully it's readable enough, though it does take a little time to get through it all. Please let us know what you think when you get through it.


Long live the Metaverse.

Please keep in mind that the framers of the US Constitution took *months* to draft their document, and the crowd was freakin' rich with genius literati.

And even then, they didn't get that until their second try

And what shall this document do for smaller, less powerful Empires? How will it help us?

-Spencer

How will it help us?

Glad you spoke up. This is not about powerful empires, it is just that the four mentioned were the only ones to speak up and show they're active and supportive. Your empire along with anyother that is still active is invited to take part in this. You've probably read the basic principles behind this. It is not about helping any particular empire or entity, but all metaverse players as a whole. Enhancing the interest and continued playability of the metaverse is the utmost priority. After you've taken in what's been discussed, feel free to let your own thoughts be known.

Edit:Sorry didn't notice there wasn't a link in here to the discussion.Is anyone else out there??

Adder spoke the truth, they are the few empires we though were active enough. But, if your empire agress to join they will not be restricted. We arent trying to represent idividual empires, but all the metaverse players as a whole. So it doesnt matter how big your empire is, it matter how active you are. If your empire agrees to join, then go ahead we would be glad to have you.

And as for what we can do for you. We will try to make the Metaverse more active, which means more members for you and a better chance at getting a higher score(if you are concerned about that). Mostly we will try to build a community in which the size of the Empire wont matter.

And what shall this document do for smaller, less powerful Empires? How will it help us?

Initially it will be of no direct benefit to smaller empires.

Your empire is a single person empire. We want to represent your empire. We also want to represent individuals that don't belong to an empire at all. But I feel it's outright impossible to contact every individual and get their input and support for this.

Take the Qourth Empire for example. 86 total members with 51 members that have submitted 454 games to the metaverse in the last six months. No one has heard anything. Same thing with the Overmind. It's as if they were all dead. If we can't find the 4th and 5th place metaverse empires that together have 203 members, how can we contact each and every active metaverse player. The answer is, we can't.

The only way to get something started that has some semblance of legitimacy and therefore actually has some chance of doing something is to get approval from the four major active empires. Even that is not without difficulty. If we get this kind of approval we can feel justified in coming up with changes to the AltMeta that we think will improve interest and participation in the metaverse.

The other kind of change I'd be looking for in the AltMeta is the ability to take some kind of census of active metaverse players. At least get an idea of how many there are and their general level of activity. With this kind of information, as well as having been already established, the council can move to a true representation of all metaverse players with open popular elections of representatives.

But at this point I don't think it's possible to get every individual on the same page enough to actually get anything done. In some sense I would liken this to the Magna Carta rather than the US Constitution. When the Magna Carta was written it did absolutely nothing for the common man. But it was the eventual basis for a very successful democracy.

This would just be a document to limit and set a structure for the Council. What the Council will decide from there is its choice. But some questions arent easily answered by people(take Representation) so we will create a rule for that, but not give much specifics besides the blantant number and a small reason for the rule. Other than Representation and Voting theres not much to discuss. So, i will try to get something ready by tomorrow, but it matters how exams go. Anyone else willing to write a small draft or proposal based on the ideas here is welcome to.

Anyone else willing to write a small draft

As I mentioned, I consider what I wrote in post #21 of this thread to be a completed draft of the "Magna Carta". I'd like to hear any and all opinions about it's suitability.

I think that is perfectly fine. It's sets up all the basics.

Yes, we might want to put an everyones vote is equal sentance in there and we would be all set.

I'd like to hear any and all opinions about it's suitability.

I like it. Easy to read and understand. I also like the fact that it leaves it up to the council to decide any details and additions that may later need to be made, which will be decided with the players interests at heart. No need to over do it.

Edit:

Yes, we might want to put an everyones vote is equal sentance in there and we would be all set.

3. All council members share equal responsibility in representing Current and future meta players.

ok. It's not worded the best  , but kinda what I was thinking.

Yes, we might want to put an everyone’s vote is equal sentence in there and we would be all set.

This sounds good to me. Again I'm not quite sure what you had in mind about the leader thing, but that's perfectly reasonable to define and put in later if it's the councils desire.

OK, I made that change and I also added a clause that adds representatives from "small" empires along with representatives of unaligned players as a priority for inclusion into the Council (it seemed only fair). Here it goes.

---

We, the active members of the Metaverse, as represented by the four founding empires: B.C. Space Orca’s, The Galactic Diplomats, The High Command Hegemony and Arrakis Imperium, have approved the formation of the Metaverse Council. The purpose of this Council is to increase interest and participation in the Metaverse by the general Galactic Civilization II community. To achieve the stated purpose the Council is presumed to act with the combined weight and authority of all those the Council represents. This document defines the rules under which the Council must act and requires ratification by all four founding empires. Once ratified these rules may only be changed by an 80% majority of the Council itself.

1) Any and all votes that require a change to the status quo require a 70% majority of voting representatives. The votes of all representatives carry equal weight. In such a case where no status quo exists a simple majority of voting representatives is sufficient.

2) Initial representation shall consist of 2 representatives selected or elected from each of the four founding empires. The nature of the selection of future representatives and the inclusion of future empires in the Council shall be determined by the Council itself, but the inclusion of representatives; unaligned to any empire or from empires deemed too small for direct inclusion in the Council, is to be a priority.

---

Grr... i had a good point to bring in. But, all the history i had to read has overloaded my brain. Maybe it will return. But for now i show support for Mumbles draft. It will at least give us a stable beggining, and from there the Council can decide.

And even then, they [the US Constitution framers] didn't get that until their second try

Talk about begging for wild digressions...

It will at least give us a stable beggining, and from there the Council can decide.

If you think of it let us know. The point is that we're all reasonable folks here. No one is going to hold someone's feet to the fire because some important item was forgotten or neglected. If something reasonable needs to be added I'm sure we'll add it.

Certainly, by no means will all good ideas or comment come only from the council, but I think most folks can see just from the discussions in the three or so threads that have been talking about this issue that it's far easier for 8 folks to come to a reasonalble agreement than it is for 108 folks to come to agreement. That's really the whole point of this council.

Great Stuff    Now, if this is in agreeance it should probably be copied and posted in each empires thread and on thier forums, if they have one.

One more point from someone nowhere near caught up reading about this council/constitution stuff: using basic search on the page for this thread, I saw several weighty-seeming uses of "document."

If y'all are even semi-serious about that word in the larger context of a "constitution," you should be working collectively on a separate file. In for-profit terms, I'm talking about online collaboration technology. But the impulse here seems not-for-profit, which makes me suspect the "executive committee" should be working on an OpenOffice Writer document with tracked changes.

couldn't edit: I meant posted for inspection and agreeance by said empires.

Not completly sure what you mean G.W. but i think we have gotten along well enough by just proposing changes, and debating what is said on this and other threads. I dont think that level of cooperation is necassary at these early levels of planning. But, your opinion is always welcome.

couldn't edit: I meant posted for inspection and agreeance by said empires

Lately, I'm half-sure the "failure" of an attempt at editing a post means that someone's made a post after the one you're trying to edit.

@GreatEmporer: Your question/comment makes me more sure I was hasty in "joining" the threads without fully catching up on them. What I mentioned about document files with tracked changes was b/c I am both a "political scientist" and an "IT professional." A forum like this is a painfully limited means to draft a "constitution," at least if it's possible for the drafters to use a common writing tool like OpenOffice Writer or MS Office Word.