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A Plea to Uplift the Minor Races in Dark Avatar

A Plea to Uplift the Minor Races in Dark Avatar

The gigantic cedar-like trees of the Snathi capital of Idar-Los, a marriage of architecture and environment unique in the galaxy, burned like torches in the night, the flames stretching nearly a mile into the smoke-choked sky. Hours before, a small Colonial Union taskforce blasted through the derelict trade and colony ships in Snathi Prime’s orbit allowing the troop ships Chateau Thierry and Choson Reservoir to deploy millions of Colonial marines and mini-soldier drones without resistance. The ensuing carnage and wanton destruction of horded nuts and squirrel nets sickened all but the most hardened marines.

As the few remaining insurgents were rounded up amidst the smoldering ruins of the once-proud Snathi civilization, Colonial leaders reflected on the years of failed policy that had brought them to this terrible pass. Discovered during the heyday of expansion, Snathi Prime was strategically located between the Colonial world of Haven and the armistice line with the Drengin Imperium. Rather than seize the world and turn it into a military base, the Colonial government opted to treat the Snathi as an ally and trade partner, arming them against Drengin encroachment by providing this backward civilization with starships, money, and advanced technology.

For reasons still debated by the Colonial Union’s diplomats and military planners, the Snathi squandered these gifts with the reckless abandon of drunken squirrels. Budget support to the Snathi treasury sat in low-interest bearing accounts and lethal weapons like the BAE-Raytheon Harpoon missile system were never even installed on their ships. Inexplicably, advanced warships given to the Snathi to bolster their defenses sat abandoned in orbit around Colonial worlds while their government impetuously used even the slighted pretexts to declare war on more powerful neighbors. When it came right down to it, the Snathi did absolutely nothing to prepare themselves for the inevitable retaliation of the enemies they provoked. Where did this curious lack of self-preservation come from? Did it have religious, biological, philosophical, racial, political, or other roots? Why did they frivolously spend their resources to build countless centers extolling the virtues of their culture on Snathi Prime? Why did they send fleets of constructors to the empty ends of the galaxy to build empty consulates and gigantic shopping malls hawking second-rate wares? Why, even with an interstellar colony ship at their disposal, did they not take Haven before the Colonial Union ever reached that part of space? These questions were now academic, perhaps to be tackled in the dissertation of some second-rate graduate student hoping to make a name for himself in a niche corner of xeno-sociology. But none of that really mattered anymore because when the threat came from across the armistice line, the Snathi exposed their furry little throats to the cruel Drengin knife, forcing the Colonial Union to launch the preemptive attack that laid waste to their erstwhile ally. In the end, the Colonial Union had to destroy Snathi Prime in order to save it.

Now, I’m not telling this tale (which is from a recent 1.40X game, but it could just as easily been about the Paulons, Dark Yor, or any number of hapless minor races that I’ve stomped upon from conquests past) to argue for a return to the GC1 days of marauding mega-minor races that could kick my sorry empire back to the stone age. But I am arguing for something stronger than what currently exists in GC2 (and seems to exist in the DA beta as well). I do believe that there are good reasons to have minor races in the game and that these races should be minor races. One can imagine any number of rational or bizarre reasons why a civilization would not be a major player on the galactic stage. One can even imagine "martyr" races that seek out their own destruction. But IMHO, adding some backbone and survival instinct to our little minor friends would greatly increase the diversity of the GC galaxy and gaming experience. In GC2, I feel like my only viable option is to invade a nearby minor before any of the other majors can get around to it. Strategies to use them as allies, trade partners, or military proxies do not work for very long, even when you do something extreme like gift planets to them.

There are a lot of posts out there with excellent ideas that would introduce some modest improvement to the minors, e.g., increasing the tendency for minor-major alliances; increasing the minor’s use of technology and ships gifted from majors; keeping the minors from wasting time and resources on influence starbases and improvements; and allowing minors to colonize a planet or two in their vicinity.

Please, please, please oh Gods of Stardock, heed the death squeak of the dying Snathi. Let their cautionary tale of hubris and folly persuade you to give them the tools they need to stave off death for just a couple more turns.
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Reply #26 Top
Thanks Quixen! Just thought the story would add a little interest to the discussion. Not that there isn't already a lot of interest in improving our friends, the minors...

I confess that I've only played a couple of games on DA Beta -- not enough to notice any major changes to the minors (e.g., G.W. Swicord's mention that minors were colonizing). I'm excited about a new DA feature -- the research and economic treaties, an excellent addition to existing diplomatic options, IMHO. Does anyone know if it's possible to establish these treaties with minors? If so, that could add a nice incentive to keep minors around or at least add an additional factor to consider in the cost-benefit analysis of keeping those minors around or defended against enemies. These treaties could also offer a tantalizing way to "entangle" majors to specific minors. Has anyone noticed majors forming those treaties with minors? When you attack a minor that has these ties to another major, how does that major react?
Reply #27 Top
Yes, the econ and research treaties work with minors. I scored most of them in my last 1A game. I suppose if you have a huge economy, you could boost a minor by giving them your econ treaty.

It also looks like, at least on Tough, a minor with a colony can survive past the demise of a couple of majors. The Paulos have two worlds and several resource mines. They were more of a power than the Drath at the point my game stopped working. Seems like a prime time to consider inviting them into the UP, or maybe even having the Drath surrender to them instead of the next AI to attack them.
Reply #28 Top
Do folks really want minors to be able to join the UP? I'm of two minds on that -- on the one hand, I think it would add an interesting dynamic to the game, certainly making it more fluid and unpredictable (I know nothing about programming, but this seems like something that would be awfully hard to implement correctly). But on the other hand, I can imagine any number of rational reasons why a civilization would forever be a minor player on the galactic stage. What do folks think?

Another thought... There was a Star Trek-genre 4X game that had minor races as well. If you sucked up to them long enough and gave them enough treats, an option would appear on the diplomacy screen that allowed you to accept their offer to join your empire. Putting something like that into DA would add to the strategies of dealing with minors – conquering them, using them as a trading partner, using them as a military proxy, or absorbing them...
Reply #29 Top
I think that minor races should be minor until they reach a certain point. In most cases the only way a minor should reach those points would be with significant help from the other races. I do not think that left to their own devices they would be able to achieve major race status.

Reply #30 Top
I do not think that left to their own devices they would be able to achieve major race status.


I imagine Quixen's right here from a current-code POV. I have no idea how different the AI for minors might be.

If they get a copy of a standard AI with limits like low expansion, then Quixen's "would" is more about how story lines might play out. In a case like that, "joining the majors" might be uncommon, but should not be impossible, especially wit the new spore weapons adding the possibility of minor colony rushes in late games.

More Snathi chittering: The Fierce People long ago learned the value of hiding in their lairs during hard seasons and preparing for the return of good hunting. Having seen their single, precious colony world repeatedly invaded by the Korath, Drengin, and Torians, they wisely stood back from the fray between the great powers. This caution proved truly wise because it gave them the chance to carefully study the terrible new spore weapons that were spreading fear across the galaxy. As the UP members brought nearly the whole galaxy into their dynastic conflicts, clever Snathi paws quietly built colony ships that could overcome the fallout of the dreaded spore ships. With the main fleets of the great powers busily engaged in a fight for the heart of the galaxy, the Snathi Empire was suddenly born from the wasteland worlds that filled what had been the Torian's outermost provinces.
Reply #31 Top
i think that minor races ( once they get to a higher tech should be able to become major races) Any 1 agree?
Reply #32 Top
I'm not bothered about them becoming Major's, just actually expanding would be nice.
As Mistralok said just having them as Lemmings is not much fun.
Reply #33 Top
I've had minors survive some rather intense fights, without my help. My last game one of the minors(I don't remember who) got on the wrong side of the Torian Confederation. Well, about two years into the war(and with much debate in the U.P.) the TC fianlly made peace with the minor. They went toe to toe with a major race, and walked out un-scathed. Now, the poor bastards down the road from my empire ended up defecting into my power(which got the Terrans in an uproar). Over all, I would like the minors to serve a bigger role.

-Spencer
Reply #34 Top
merge minor races with galactic resources. give the % some personality
Reply #35 Top
In my opinion. The major races should be the top 10 or so. This way if or when a major race gets wiped out, a minor race takes its place in the Council. In Civ 4 you can see everyone’s status and relations with everyone with ease, we do need something like this so we can see how everyone stands in an instant vs having to ask around and play diplomat.

As for them actually using what they have properly, how about an option to allow a culture/ Alien relations. It’s obvious the Yor wont want to mingle, they are looking to have only there race survive. But in alliances, and good civilizations, seeing a ship being run by different species may be common. There needs to be some way (perhaps a slider bar) to allow how far up a different species can be involved in your Civilization. Ranging from meir citizens to military to Government workings.

Sure, if you allowed alien races to be a part of your government, spying would be easier for your enemies, but you would gain bonuses for those creatures’ abilities. But if you don’t allow for any other species to work with your people, such as the Yor, spying would be much more difficult. But they wouldn’t have the bonuses of having other creatures.

I’m sure a minor race would have something to bring to the table in any civilizations, weather be war, political or economic.

If these changes were made it would be this.
1. an option to dictate how much power an alien race can have on your civilization and have bonuses/ penalties for it. (security issues, species bonus, diplomatic relations ect.)
2. changing the U.P. council to the top 10 powers. So a major race can actually be demoted
3. some way to quickly and easily determine everyone relations with everyone else.
4. more civil wars / unhappy planets breaking off to allow for more races.

I’m trying to work this out as a mod. I’m also adding carriers to the mix so the game for me will be vastly different on many levels. I’m using Civ4 ideas and Pax Imperia for inspiration. And other games on how to get their.
Reply #36 Top
((Wow, I haven't posted here in a long time))

Some brilliant ideas there Allimar. It would be great to see some sort of alien diversity amongst your civilisation and the bonuses associated with that. I've no idea how hard that idea would be to implement into the game, but I have a slight alternative instead of having individual bonuses associated with having certain races in your population, if that would be too difficult to put into the game.

How about you get to choose who to let your boarders open to. As default, immigration could be turned off, but for each new race you meet, you can agree to open your boarders to immigration for their race, giving you extra production bonuses on the whole (a whole new workforce ), or even going as far as to open up new trade routes between you and that particular race (For example, if myself and the Torians allow each other's citizens to immigrate, we could both create two more trade routes as long as it's with each other). Of course, this would make races more friendly with each other, but it also makes their spies on your worlds more effective, so an immigration agreement can also gave your rivals a chance to stab you in the back.

Anyway, back on topic, I would like to see minor races given the chance to become major and join the U.P. Perhaps after a major race has been destroyed or has surrendered, a U.P. meeting is called the next week to offer a seat to the strongest minor race at that point. This means that minors can only become majors if they are replacing another race.

Oddly enough, I'm currently playing a gigantic game with 7 AIs, and only myself, the Yor and the Thalan are stronger than all the minor races, although all the minor races have done so far is build constructors everywhere!
Reply #37 Top
It would be great to see some sort of alien diversity amongst your civilisation and the bonuses associated with that.


I think "complexities" is at least as apt here as "bonuses." I'm pretty sure the point is moot for GCII, but I've yet to notice an authoritative rejection of the minor promoted to major idea.

p.s. I *am* starting to hope that Brad might be persuaded to look into some mixed population (or multicultural, whatever you want to call it) system for the upcoming not-MoO2. Seems like a wizard should be able to fill her cities with multiple species (e.g. orcs and goblins or humans and dwarves). Much strategic-choice potential there, IMO.
Reply #38 Top
I like that option Addman. Opening your boarders to a certain race would be a better option. these are just ideas thrown in the air. opens up more tactics you and your allies use. I haven't checked to see if the Minor races are designed to be dumb like that, in GC1 a minor race was one that had certain abilities however didnt have enough of the right stuff (short life span, no common sense ect) to be able to compete against the other Civ's.

My favorite game are the ones that last forever, ultra slow Tech speed, Huge maps and more civs. I don't like the game ending, because even if you did take over the galaxy, you may still have a small problem in a couple sectors you could never see, and they turn on you. causing more planets to break off and be there own.

Its why the US is the USA. And not Great Briton

I would like to see a lot more U.P. meetings. Once a year isn't enough, and especially when there is so much that can be done.

First step is figuring out what exactly we want.
next
Figuring out how to do it.

Reply #39 Top
I was playing DA and noticed the top of the most powerful Civ's was one of the minor races. Has this happend to anyone else?
Reply #40 Top
I'm well into the middle of my first sustained Beta 2 game on a huge map with many (7?) minors alongside 9 AIs (diff=tough). The minors have remained rewardingly important players as of 1 July 2231.

In my earlier DA games, I had enough map coverage to see that a few minors had colonies away from their homeworlds. In this game, I can't see more than one world per minor, but some of them are still showing up all across the "most powerful" rankings and they've had a significant effect on control of resource nodes.

Reply #41 Top
They are playing a more significant role now it seems. With the new options to customize your foe, having major and minor races at the plate the possibilities are almost endless.
I wonder if any work will be done regarding open boarders, though sid probably has a copy right on all that...
Reply #42 Top
I'm playing a game where I'm currently ranked first, then all the minor races take 2nd-6th or 7th, then all the other major races are below them. This probably has something to do with their military score as the other majors are still expanding, whilst the minors have just built a few military ships instead of colony ships.
Reply #43 Top
link to an old post, on why the minors dont colonize

https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=348&aid=120167

havent picked up the xpac yet (mtw2 atm) but here's hoping they make the minors a bit more robust this time around.