A Plea to Uplift the Minor Races in Dark Avatar

The gigantic cedar-like trees of the Snathi capital of Idar-Los, a marriage of architecture and environment unique in the galaxy, burned like torches in the night, the flames stretching nearly a mile into the smoke-choked sky. Hours before, a small Colonial Union taskforce blasted through the derelict trade and colony ships in Snathi Prime’s orbit allowing the troop ships Chateau Thierry and Choson Reservoir to deploy millions of Colonial marines and mini-soldier drones without resistance. The ensuing carnage and wanton destruction of horded nuts and squirrel nets sickened all but the most hardened marines.

As the few remaining insurgents were rounded up amidst the smoldering ruins of the once-proud Snathi civilization, Colonial leaders reflected on the years of failed policy that had brought them to this terrible pass. Discovered during the heyday of expansion, Snathi Prime was strategically located between the Colonial world of Haven and the armistice line with the Drengin Imperium. Rather than seize the world and turn it into a military base, the Colonial government opted to treat the Snathi as an ally and trade partner, arming them against Drengin encroachment by providing this backward civilization with starships, money, and advanced technology.

For reasons still debated by the Colonial Union’s diplomats and military planners, the Snathi squandered these gifts with the reckless abandon of drunken squirrels. Budget support to the Snathi treasury sat in low-interest bearing accounts and lethal weapons like the BAE-Raytheon Harpoon missile system were never even installed on their ships. Inexplicably, advanced warships given to the Snathi to bolster their defenses sat abandoned in orbit around Colonial worlds while their government impetuously used even the slighted pretexts to declare war on more powerful neighbors. When it came right down to it, the Snathi did absolutely nothing to prepare themselves for the inevitable retaliation of the enemies they provoked. Where did this curious lack of self-preservation come from? Did it have religious, biological, philosophical, racial, political, or other roots? Why did they frivolously spend their resources to build countless centers extolling the virtues of their culture on Snathi Prime? Why did they send fleets of constructors to the empty ends of the galaxy to build empty consulates and gigantic shopping malls hawking second-rate wares? Why, even with an interstellar colony ship at their disposal, did they not take Haven before the Colonial Union ever reached that part of space? These questions were now academic, perhaps to be tackled in the dissertation of some second-rate graduate student hoping to make a name for himself in a niche corner of xeno-sociology. But none of that really mattered anymore because when the threat came from across the armistice line, the Snathi exposed their furry little throats to the cruel Drengin knife, forcing the Colonial Union to launch the preemptive attack that laid waste to their erstwhile ally. In the end, the Colonial Union had to destroy Snathi Prime in order to save it.

Now, I’m not telling this tale (which is from a recent 1.40X game, but it could just as easily been about the Paulons, Dark Yor, or any number of hapless minor races that I’ve stomped upon from conquests past) to argue for a return to the GC1 days of marauding mega-minor races that could kick my sorry empire back to the stone age. But I am arguing for something stronger than what currently exists in GC2 (and seems to exist in the DA beta as well). I do believe that there are good reasons to have minor races in the game and that these races should be minor races. One can imagine any number of rational or bizarre reasons why a civilization would not be a major player on the galactic stage. One can even imagine "martyr" races that seek out their own destruction. But IMHO, adding some backbone and survival instinct to our little minor friends would greatly increase the diversity of the GC galaxy and gaming experience. In GC2, I feel like my only viable option is to invade a nearby minor before any of the other majors can get around to it. Strategies to use them as allies, trade partners, or military proxies do not work for very long, even when you do something extreme like gift planets to them.

There are a lot of posts out there with excellent ideas that would introduce some modest improvement to the minors, e.g., increasing the tendency for minor-major alliances; increasing the minor’s use of technology and ships gifted from majors; keeping the minors from wasting time and resources on influence starbases and improvements; and allowing minors to colonize a planet or two in their vicinity.

Please, please, please oh Gods of Stardock, heed the death squeak of the dying Snathi. Let their cautionary tale of hubris and folly persuade you to give them the tools they need to stave off death for just a couple more turns.
23,590 views 43 replies
Reply #1 Top
Nice post!!

Fully agree with you on the minor debate, although i have always been an advocate of the option to give the minor races more AI power

Drengin
Reply #2 Top
I did get a little carried away. But so many little furry friends... now all are dead. Someone must speak for those who cannot.  
Reply #3 Top
Excellent post. The worst is the way the minors clog up their starport, so that they can't even build more ships. (and as you mentioned, the pointless influence starbases...)

Stardock seems more interested in creating hords of new problems than with cleaning up its current ones. Jasmcarl, go ahead...





Reply #4 Top
Very good point, although I have yet to see any improvement in DA over GC2. It would be nice if they could at least colonize all of their system planets, and be actually intelligent enough to do things right.
Reply #5 Top
I completely agree with you Cumberberg. I hate to see all my minor races wiped out, and them really doing anything to prevent it. They just hang around doing pointless things till they get wiped out, which is just sad to watch.

Nice post by the way!
Reply #6 Top
Excellently said.

As a sidenote, I've noticed that while the Scottlingas in my current game let ships remain in my systems for a while, they eventually moved them out and docked them.

They have a pretty effective and powerful military at this point, which I did jumpstart by giving them good quality planets and a number of ships and techs.

They are now #2 in the galaxy, over the Arceans and Thalans. At the same time, this is very very rare.

I'd like to see them do more, personally.
Reply #7 Top
It would be nice if they could at least colonize all of their system planets


If I remember rightly, there used to be an Overwhelming Minors problem that led to an update that removed their ability to colonize. A range limit on their colonizing interests seems like it might be the best "fix for the fix." It might not be just their home system, depending on overall map settings and a particular minor's coordinates.

p.s. I'm Floridian, and the Snathi seem to be my nightmare vision of our gray squirrels. Despite a longstanding habit of cheering on my local raptors and rodent-hunting snakes, I freakin' love the Snathi.
Reply #8 Top
They have a pretty effective and powerful military at this point, which I did jumpstart by giving them good quality planets and a number of ships and techs.


You are getting them to use the ships you give them? I have never been able to get them to move them after I gift them over to them.(<--heh..them. four times in a sentence.) They eventually get conquered and the ships disappear.
Reply #9 Top
Misaniovent, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've never gotten my minors to use gifted ships. Maybe I'm not trying often/hard enough. I guess I could gift them more planets (shudder)... Is that the trick? Are yours building starbases in any sort of rational way?

I really do love the minors and the diversity they bring to the game. (Can’t you tell that I dig the Snathi? Maybe I’d like them better if they were some variety of ferret? Hmm, probably not...) Again, I'm not advocating for changes that would allow minors to surpass majors on their own. Rather, I wish we could have some tweaks that would allow the minors to hold their own with some support. Based on what I've read on the boards, there is little support for a return to the rampaging hoards of minors in GC1. But isn’t there a lot of ground between out-of-control GC1 minors and the rather hapless, one-dimensional (strategy-wise, that is) minors that inhabit my GC2 galaxies?

Minors should be minors. They’re the supporting cast of the story, foils for the main characters. But please, let’s have a little more variety in their performance.
Reply #10 Top
Is'nt it possible to give Minor Races 2 or 3 Colony ship at the start of the game, without giving them the ability to build more ships. This way, they would have the ability to colonize two, three planets, giving them a bigger chance than just being cannon fodder for the greedy human or AI player...

TIP
Reply #11 Top
Definately wouldn't hurt ; and I sure hope we can still randomly get Minor Races like; say if the intial ones die off... some might pop up later.
Reply #12 Top
I think TIPedersen is on to something. If they can't build colony ships at all, but simply start with a set small number, then there is no reason to not give them a full AI. Or perhaps set their AI intelligence to one level below that of the average major. That should make the amount of programming necessary be reasonable...
Reply #13 Top
I've been successful in getting the minors to use ships by sending the ships I want to give to them close to their homeworld and then giving those ships to the minors. I've kept a minor alive for many turns by doing that. If you just give them ships that are parked around your planets they tend to never do anything with them and they just sit there clogging up your space.

The Snathi (who it happened to be) fought a very successful proxy war for me against the Torians until their homeworld was crushed. I had given them a world in the backwater of my empire and it was interesting to see the Torians sending ships through my empire to try to take the Snathi's last world. Naturally, I had to crush the Torians for violating my space like that which was easy since they were deep in my territory. It was the Snathi and I to the very end that time...

Normally, the minors on my maps get wiped out well before I ever see them though.
Reply #14 Top
Misaniovent, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I've never gotten my minors to use gifted ships. Maybe I'm not trying often/hard enough. I guess I could gift them more planets (shudder)... Is that the trick? Are yours building starbases in any sort of rational way?


Honestly, I don't remember how I convinced them to use their ships. It took them a while, but they eventually did -- but, perhaps tellingly, not until they were declared war upon.

As a very interesting sidenote, the Thalans frequently do the same thing. They always seem to me like a strong minor race. Coincidence?
Reply #15 Top
One thing I was disappointed about with Minor races is that they tend to never exceed the "Minor" status. I don't mean this in terms of simply power, but simply the U.P. and foreign policy. I'll explain.
I was recently in a heated battle against the Yor. Several turns into the war, their allies began to attack me even more furiously then they had been doing previously. I was loosing the war horribly and had no allies with significant power left to turn to. The minor race of the Paulons were gaining considerable power and were very much in a position to help me out, so I gave them every technology I had researched (which was probably not the best decision on my part; however, the boost I gave them was considerable and increased their power literally ten-fold). The war progressed and was quickly completed. Within a dozen or so turns later, the Paulons were comming up as the #1 most powerful civ. I wish they had some feature that when a minor race becomes powerful enough it would have a chance to become a Major race and be invited into the United Planets. It would just make an interesting twist in my opinion.
Someone give me a little feedback on this idea if you could.
Reply #16 Top
Hi!
I completely agree with Cumberberg. At the difficulty levels I play (crippling+) minors are just an almost free planet for any civ that decides to wipe them out. Since I like to play in sparse universes (5-10 planets per player), that class-15 one planet makes significant difference in players' balance. So by default I turn them off , and they'll stay off until their survival ability improves significantly.

Their survival ability could be improved with more planets, but they'd also need something to give them bonuses in relations to mayor civs, so mayors would be less keen to start wars with them. If they would be attacked, mayor civs of the same alignment should actively help them, and minors should be able to use that help properly, not just let granted ships sit somewhere waiting to be destroyed.

IMO minors are a nice feature in the game. It's a waste of the work put in them, if they are not able to play more active role in the game. Please Stardock, allow them being minors!

BR, Iztok
Reply #17 Top
I had suggested on another thread the idea of giving a civ wide bonus for an alliance with each minor race, that lasts as long as the race and the alliance. The bonuses would be things like +1 speed for all ships, +5% economy etc. This would make them useful to have and a reason not to treat them as a free planet,and to defend them against attack.

Scincerely,
Scintor
Reply #18 Top
Good ideas all. this has to be the best threar yet about Minors. Maybe the powers that be will act. I doubt it though.
Reply #19 Top
Some folks have commented that the reason minors are so weak now was that they were out of control in GC1. Has anyone seen on another thread more of a rationale or explanation from our friends at Stardock about that? I continue to feel that there's a lot of ground between rampaging hoards of minors and the sad minors we have today. A little nerfing in favor or the minors could really add to the diversity of the game.
Reply #20 Top
A little nerfing in favor or the minors could really add to the diversity of the game.


Yup totaly agree with you on that one. I would love to have that element of doubt in the game. Coming across a minor civ that had 5 planets to its name would be better than the cash cows we got now!

All that is needed it to give the minors a total limit on the amount of planets they can colonize based on the variables set at galaxy creation (and yes i know its not that easy).
Reply #21 Top
Has anybody ever looked in the race XML file before?
I noticed that all the minors have a technology called "Root", but none of the other races have this. Could this be what causes the special treatment?
Reply #22 Top
I wish they had some feature that when a minor race becomes powerful enough it would have a chance to become a Major race and be invited into the United Planets. It would just make an interesting twist in my opinion.


I really like this idea, but I don't think it would work for folks who start with 9 rivals, unless a strong minor could hang on until one of the majors got knocked off. How sweet would it be to see the Snathi take up the bloody flag of their fellow sentient-eating Drengin?

p.s. In DA beta 1A, I've seen a few (one or two) minor colonies aside from the throneworld. I'm pretty sure Stardock are listening to this thread
Reply #23 Top
I love this idea cumberburg and heres how they could be more "major".

-If powerful enough can be invited to United Planets and become a major.(Kudos to Riptide572 on this idea)

-Can have a "military assistance" proposal in United Planets in which you vote on someone who would help a minor civ if they got attacked with the possibility of "No one"

-If minors are attacked the United Planets supplies them with _ generation ships depending on tech levels reached.(similar to military assistance idea)

-Evil minors can corrupt planets and steal money,ships,and technology with (insert number here) spies. I know there would be balancing issues with this one so might not be so good.

-Minors can have special treaties with majors that range from financial assistance to share trade route income treaties. In return you get a + to evil or good depending on ethics of minor or automatic military help from the minor if you engage in war.(if they become a major this would be useful)

These are just random ideas though so some arent that good anyway.
Reply #24 Top
I think that the reason behind the Snathi's behavior is that when the Dread Lords created them, they infused the squirrel DNA with lemming DNA in order to gain their prodigious ability to breed. Unfortunately, (for the Snathi), their creators ignored their other, more well-known trait- mass suicide.
Reply #25 Top
I like the ideas above. A very cool way to start the thread by the way Mr. Cumberberg.

I always found it hysterical when a minor would declare war on another minor, then just sit there facing each other down for a year without so much as a single shot fired. I understand that a minor race is supposed to be... well... minor, but I do not believe they need to be stupid. As it stands now they are more or less Rocks with money. Pointless. It seems to me that they were solely put into the game as a source of amusement and not much more.

I think they should be allowed to become a major civ if they meet certian criteria with their military, economy, or research. Where that line is drawn is beyond me however.