Rendorax Rendorax

Don't expect the AI to get any better.

Don't expect the AI to get any better.

"If you can win ... you must be [cheating]." - Brad


A challenge that will take more time to deal with is that the computer players have reached the level where they are plenty tough for me. That is, unless I'm playing on a very specific setting or playing with a very specific style, the AI at higher than tough difficulties will cream me. My view is that anyone being 1.2 at anything higher than tough consistently is probably doing some sort of exploit at which point you just gotta decide whether you want to play a game or game the program? The AI doesn't "care" whether it loses. So if you figure out that you can some starbase/resource/ship combo or find some diplomacy trick to "Win" then knock yourself out. But I won't be spending my summer weekends trying to "fix" something like that.


I was just going over some of the past journals here, trying to get a feeling for the developers and the directions they intend to take the game, when I ran across this gem. Now, I think I understand Brad Wardell's remark in a previous thread I started, about finding Tough, Painful, and Crippling difficulty way too easy. He said that, basically, only cheap tactics could possibly win beyond Tough. I think I know why he said that now -- he, himself, despite designing and playing games for 15 years, according to the same journal post, can't win the game beyond that level. Argh.

Previously, I saw an interesting post from Brad Wardell on Civfanatics, where he said that he liked playing as the Romans on Small, Pangaea (one continent) worlds, in Civ 4. Ugh. Talk about cheap. If you're not familiar with Civ 4, the Romans have an insanely overpowered unique unit that stomps all over the rest of the world for quite some time -- certainly long enough to conquer a Tiny or Small, Pangaea world.

I don't like the insinuation that I must be using cheap tactics to win this game. The entire reason that I bought this game was because everyone kept talking about how the AI was so great and they had such a difficult time winning. I didn't buy it because it has no DRM (it does -- the fucking long ass serial number that I had to enter something like three times, when I installed the game), the "humor" (which generally consists of "I'm too lazy to enter any text here - ha ha, isn't that funny?", generic technobabble, or tedious, banal references to TV shows, and, worst of all, reads like some crap written by a fanboy (or Iliad, the dumbass who writes User Friendly)), the graphics or sound (which are essentially throw-away), or the "science fiction" background (which is total bullshit -- this game is about as scientific as Star Wars. I, too, used to hate it when people made a huge stink over whether Star Wars was "true SF" or whatever, but, as I progressed in my science background, I got more and more sensitive to what got classified as "science fiction", rather than "space opera" or "fantasy". As a result, I guess I'm much more a fan of what people'd call "hard science fiction", where the science actually makes sense. I do apologize for being such a wanker, in this respect. I still don't like those people so much, even though I've generally come to agree with them.).

Yes, yes, I know what you'll say. I'm being a nerd, and I can't relax and enjoy the game, for its humor. I hate this kind of humor. And, yes, I am a nerd. I've been a gamer for twenty five years (take that, Brad Wardell, with your paulty fifteen! I mean, hey, if we're going to be bragging here...). I used to write computer games like "The Political Machine" or whatever bullshit Stardock wrote before GalCiv. Back then, everyone was a programmer, because computer games were so rare (and, quite frequently, poorly done, so the bar was quite a bit lower than today). I also wrote quite a lot of fiction. Not all of it was good, to be sure, but I'd like to think that it was above the level of Master of Orion fanfic. I mean, really!! Is there no one amongst you who has ever played MOO? It's a one-to-one correllation, essentially: humans as diplomatics and traders, the mysterious "precursors", the powerful civilization that comes out of nowhere to randomly destroy colonies, starbases, etc. I could go on all fucking day.

I'm sick of people who don't have a creative bone in their body simply referencing pop culture. The Yor? Cylons. The Drengin? Klingons. Wink, wink. Yeah, I caught all the hidden references in the game. The same, tired, overused quotes and references to Star Trek, Hitchhiker's Guide, etc. I've heard people quote these things so often, I'm beginning to think that now I've got the entire movies, books, or TV shows memorized, too. I'd rather fill my head with useful information. I'm not obsessive-compulsive, but I'm starting to feel like I've been turned into one, thanks to all the fanboys on the internet.

Modding. Before I close, I just wanted to say that the back of the box lied. There is no modding in this game. This game is as moddable as a title from the 1990s! Oooh, you can change the names of the races! Ooooh, you can change the names of the techs! Do you people know what a true mod is? Try looking at Oblivion or Civ 4. You know what's sad? Alpha Centauri, released probably ten years ago, is just as moddable as this game, and it has more features, better music, more plot, actual science, insightful points (Lal's speech on freedom, for example), and the same horrible AI. Alpha Centauri was a great game, but it wasn't very moddable, and it was too easy. But -- here's the catch -- it was multiplayer. Tell me, Brad, exactly what features did Alpha Centauri have not implemented, due to being MP? It has more fucking features than your game!

Argh! MP! You know why this game doesn't have MP? It's because none of you people have the self-confidence or ability to play against another human being. I can't believe so many people here find this game difficult! You want to know what my strategy for winning on the high difficulty levels is? Here:

1) Rush a small handful of colony ships. You don't need all that many. The AI goes berserk in trying to colonize every single planet. Just take whatever it leaves you.
2) Ignore any threats. Without Planetary Invasion, they can't do shit. Much to my annoyance, neither can I.
3) Research a few diplomatic or influence technologies, as desired. The AI never researches either, so you'll have a monumental bonus to your diplomacy and/or influence soon.
4) Trade a few techs to the weakest AIs. They'll give up everything they have, just to have the scraps you feed them, thanks to your overwhelming diplomacy ability. Half of the AIs in the game will also be inexplicably stuck doing no research, on Genius and Incredible. Why? I don't know. Ask Brad. He's the one insinuating that my strategy is cheap. Because, as we all know, his AI is INCREDIBLE. My best guess is that he programmed them to spend every single dime they have buying colonizers. Why is that ridiculous lease system even in the game? The only reason I can fathom is because he wants to cripple half the AIs.
5) Build a token amount of defensive ships. Someone probably has Planetary Invasion by now. Or you probably do. Once, I did use a cheap tactic involving putting five lasers on a cargo hull. Hah! That was funny. The AI was scared to death of me for about 25-50 turns. No matter that the cargo ship had 1 hit point, no sensors, no life support, no defenses, no engine, nothing. Just five lasers. Yep, great AI that you'd have to use cheap tactics to beat. I became disgusted with myself for taking such bad advantage of his poor AI skills, and I swore to never do this again.
6) Build up your economic infrastructure. Build a starbase or two, build some trade ships, do a social project that makes money, whatever. They're all good choices, and the more, the better.
7) Build up more infrastructure, such as wonders. Or declare war on one of the AIs. Either works fine, at this point. Preferably, antagonize an Evil civilization into declaring war on you. If you want, antagonize a Good one, instead. If they declare war on you first, all your allies with intercede and no one will make a stink about you being too warlike. Or, if you feel like not being so diplomatic and sneaky, just declare war on everyone at once.
8) Make some ships that will utterly annihilate your chosen enemy. They probably haven't researched a single defensive tech, and they typically only research one single weapon tech. In the odd case that an AI has researched a defensive tech, simply take away one of the other components (such as a second engine or additional life support), and add another weapon. They never put more than one or two defensive structures on their ships.
9) Slaughter their entire fleet. This is the easiest part. It's like a knife through butter. I feel almost guilty destroying AI after AI like this, because they can't muster up the simplest challenge to my ship design. What the fuck are they thinking when they send fleet after fleet to suicide themselves against my custom-designed Korxbusters or Drenginslayers?
10) Make a few troop transports. Optimally, it'd be better if you made them MUCH earlier. But, that's not necessary, if you're feeling lazy. After having his military devestated, the AI will basically just sit there, waiting for your troop transports of doom to carve out massive portions of his empire.
11) He'll surrender to someone else. Don't fret. It's not that big of a deal. You probably conquered all the good planets, anyways. Who cares if you lose out on conquering a PQ 3 world?
12) You're probably number one in military strength now. Accept all the tribute that you're given. Build up your infrastructure and economy again. I like to pump out about 25 or 30 constructors after a big war, in order to finance my rebuilding of the conquered worlds. The AI can't build infrastructure for shit.
13) Declare war on an evil race, or wait for the Iconions to do it. Join the Iconions. Or, hell, declare war on the Iconions. Depends on how aggressive (and evil) you feel. If you're playing the Yor or Drengin, might as well go ballistic.
14) Join in with the good races on the glorious war of conquest against the evil races, subjugate the good races, or trade with everyone. My strategies are actually somewhat FLUID. Not cheap. Fuck you, Brad. I'm sorry that I can beat your pathetic AI so easily.
15) Win the game. Since you have most of the galaxy either eating out of your hand (Good) or scared shitless of you (Evil), go for political. This is particularly easy for Good races who've been devious in their diplomacy (playing the evil races against each other, for example). This is much harder for Evil races, unless you went ballistic and killed nearly everyone. Whoever is left will be all-too-willing to form an alliance with you. If you're neutral, you have more work cut out for you, perhaps. Go for an influence victory or side with the Good races and purge the universe of Evil. Or, form an alliance with both the Good and Evil races, for an even easier political victory than the Good races. The tech victory is also quite easy for Neutral races, given the overpowering advantage they have in the Neutrality Learning Centers. Just engage in a bit of trading, maybe a few surgical strikes against anyone who acts all uppity, and then go back to researching. Conquest is a bit long and tedious for my tastes. I prefer a quick, decisive military strike against anyone who won't play nice, then a return to my victory strategy.
13) If you're still having trouble with the Drengin going ballistic on everyone, and you feel you're next, build up your military. Make some ships custome-designed to kill the Drengin. Don't use the throw-away default ships. They suck beyond belief. Just name your ships Drenginslayer MK1 or whatever, load it up with a few weapons, a few defenses, and about 25 to 30 speed. This will give you an unstoppable advantage. No Drengin planet is defended by more than three or four ships, so just send in your surgical strike, take a few planets, and the Drengin will be begging you for peace. Depending on your current mood, grant it or eliminate them.

I could go into more detail here, but I'm seriously having trouble imagining what points need elucidating. I mean, yeah, I could give you point-by-point instructions on how to make a Korxbuster. But that's something you probably need to learn for yourself, through a couple games. Usually, the AI doesn't use enough defense. Use this to your advantage. Usually, the AI makes high offense fleets with very little defense. Use this to your advantage, too. Usually, the AI puts its weakest ships in reserve, as defenders, then sends out its most powerful ships to some random location. I dunno. Just hunt them down and blow them away. That's what I do. It's usually not very difficult to find them, with no sensors, and without Eyes of the Galaxy. Send out a few fleets on recon duty. Keep a fleet or two around to destroy any stragglers, near his core planets. Always make sure you've got a fleet in reserve around your own core planets, in order to destroy the inevitable, pittiable force your enemy sends. Don't play defensively. I did that once, and my ships -- while good -- were destroyed easily by the AIs fleets. Very bad strategy. That's how the AI plays. Learn from the AI's mistakes.

Okay, finally -- what's with the Cult of Brad here? I don't understand it. He calls you cheaters, tells you he's done with improving the game (because HE can't win it anymore), and you cheer him on? The fuck? I don't take well to that. No game developer I've ever heard of in the history of gaming has EVER done that before. He's like some whiney kid in an FPS saying that you're too good at the game and must be cheating. But he just has absolutely no clue how to play the game.

I'm usually not good enough at FPSes to get claims of cheating. I can hold my ground, though, even though I'm almost 35 and have dulled reflexes. I understand how to play the games. Hell, I LIKE trying my luck against other people, even the 14 year olds who can destroy me quite easily, in every session. Sometimes I get lucky. Who knows. But I'm not so chickenshit that I hide behind this "online gamers are too haaaard! other people have skiiiiiill! they might beeeeeeat me!" whine. Oh, please. Once I help my girlfriend with her initial strategies, she can learn awesome strategies herself and surpass me -- even when she thinks that she's going to suck at a game, because it's a genre with which she's unfamiliar. It doesn't take that much time or effort; just a willingness to learn.

Yes, I know that I'm banned. Yes, I know that I should just uninstall the game and play something else. Yes, I know that I shouldn't let the door hit me on the way out. And, yes, I know that you think I'm a whiney, bipolar (you'd actually be right about that one. I'll give you that.), elitist (yeah, probably true) asshole (and I should probably admit to that one, too).

So, whatever you say is probably true. I'll grant you that. But try to think about what I've said, under all of the venom and snarkiness. Is it true, too?

Finally, let's just say that I don't like when game developers promise to improve a game's AI, then whine that it's too much effort to do so. It's your fucking job, man. Do it. Don't whine about it. And, for God's sake, don't whine about it in a "blog".
86,348 views 87 replies
Reply #76 Top
Well, we complain because we care!

While I disagree with Rendorax's attitude I do understand his frustration. GalCiv has a really good AI but all one has to do is play a few games and it becomes obvious where it still needs improvements. 1.2 was a HUGE improvement to the AI and I am really looking forward to version 1.3 and the expansion. It also makes me happy to hear the devs talking about AI updates cause that is about all that this game still needs. Just for reference, I almost always play an evil race and win by military victory without exploiting diplomacy or weird techs. I consistently win on Masochistic and usually on Obscene. I guess the point for me is that I would rather play on Tough and have a hard time winning, I hate giving the AI a 200% bonus when I can see that if the AI only built his planets well I wouldn't need to because then anything about Crippling really would be extremely difficult to win.

So, keep at it Brad, we do appreciate it! And if we show some frustration at times, just realize it's because you are close and we can see that with a little more improvement we are gonna have the game we always dreamed of having. Now if I could only get the Medieval 2:Total War developers to take the AI as seriously I would be in gamer heaven.
Reply #77 Top
Don't even get us started on total war...
Reply #78 Top
So, keep at it Brad, we do appreciate it! And if we show some frustration at times, just realize it's because you are close and we can see that with a little more improvement we are gonna have the game we always dreamed of having.


So true. Brad, your are creating the game that so many of us have wished existed for long time. Gosh, I'm getting all misty eyed now.

Reply #79 Top
I would like the Ai to be more unpredictable.

In some/most games the AI expects completely crazy and unpredictable, even if you ally with them, a few turns later they can declare war for god knows what reason.

A lot of people don't like this, but let's face it, we human players act like this too a lot, we make an ally but have no qualms about turning on them when it suits us, even if our relationship is good. In comparison The AI in Galciv2 is so friendly and loyal and predictable it kinda of boring.

It would be nice for some AI to have severe "mood swings", so they are more unpredticable, they might be "warm" , and suddently one turn later they are hostile and declaring war.

Not all the Ai should act like that of course, but having the existence of some like like this, will keep players on their toes.
Reply #80 Top
[quote]I would like the Ai to be more unpredictable.

In some/most games the AI expects completely crazy and unpredictable, even if you ally with them, a few turns later they can declare war for god knows what reason.

A lot of people don't like this, but let's face it, we human players act like this too a lot, we make an ally but have no qualms about turning on them when it suits us, even if our relationship is good. In comparison The AI in Galciv2 is so friendly and loyal and predictable it kinda of boring.

It would be nice for some AI to have severe "mood swings", so they are more unpredticable, they might be "warm" , and suddently one turn later they are hostile and declaring war.

Not all the Ai should act like that of course, but having the existence of some like like this, will keep players on their toes[./quote]

That's a good suggestion, but I would hope that they do this because it is part of their long term goals (like the human player), and not because they have a random chance of declaring war on you. They should also be clever enough to wait until they are ready before launching an attack.
Reply #81 Top
Re: Unpredictable AI

That's a GREAT idea! That would go a long way to solving the problem of being able to "game" the algorithms. Simply by assigning a small chance of the AI placing much more weight to an event than it normally would, you can really indiviualise each game and prevent that predictability that eventually kills the game.
Reply #82 Top
Well, I have mixed feeling about that:
- on one side, a bit of unpredictability could be nice
- on the other side, it shouldn't end like some game breaking events (like the assassination event) leading the human player to reload a previous save game

And don't forget that this unpredictability shouldn't be completely random: an ally declaring war for no reason without being well prepared to backstab you fast won't improve the fun factor of the game.
Reply #83 Top
That's why I suggested changing the *weighting*

Before: Humans attack Snaathi, Drengin don't care
Now: Humans attack Snaathi, Lord Kona is infuriated because he was at Tyrant School with their leader. Humans are ordered to make peace or ELSE!
Reply #84 Top
And don't forget that this unpredictability shouldn't be completely random: an ally declaring war for no reason without being well prepared to backstab you fast won't improve the fun factor of the game.


Of course. The problem right now is that while the AI takes into account military strength other factors such as alignment, trading and particularly diplomacy can sufficiently offset military factors such that they will not invade even if you are at a military disadvantage or at least take several turns for the relationship to worsen before declaring war.

It would be nice to see the AI occasionally, ignore all other factors except military strength and attack immediately (even if relationship is at warm), as long as the AI thinks that his military strength is close enough to the human player's that it is worth attacking.

Certainly it's amazing how diplomacy skill plus trading alone can allow one to maintain an empire without being attacked with ZERO military for almost forever (at least at tough level).








Reply #85 Top
I think that idea of unpredictability would be a good one, and if it was an option to be switched on or off (like CPU intensive AI) no one could moan about it.

Posts like this always make me glad I can't be bothered to micromanage so much, or to spend hours evaluating the exact cost-benefit ratio of every improvement. I mean, if you want to, fair enough, but I never play as well as I could do if I really tried. Which means the AI is plenty tough enough for me.

I don't get my fun so much from beating the AI to a pulp, I get it from taking revenge on the Yor for attacking my allies, or from helping the poor Thalans to go from being a puny civilisation to being a superpower, just because they're my allies.
Whether I win or lose is irrelevant, if I feel I'm in my own space drama.

That's not to say I don't sometimes like to annihilate the AI just for the hell of it, just that the game can be much better if you play it with more in mind than winning.

Finally, I despise people who say "If you don't like multiplayer it's just because you have no friends!" It's not that, it's just that not all my friends like computer games, and the ones that do aren't Gal Civ fans. That's all. I'd love to play with them if they did, but failing that singleplayer will amuse me for hours.

Well done Stardock, keep up the good work!
Reply #86 Top
Finally, I despise people who say "If you don't like multiplayer it's just because you have no friends!"


I hear 'ya. I prefer to socialise offline, and usually play video games when I want some alone time (although I dabble in a few FPS games, and play Laser Squad Nemesis by e-mail). Sometimes I wonder if any of these trolls even know what offline means.
Reply #87 Top
Lol Yundog is an idiot. When clearly ever poll ever taken has shown Single Player vs computer is 9x more wanted than any MP features. MP features are merely a plus for those that like to play both. But, the I's have it and SINGLE PLAYER vs COMPUTER wins out everytime bud. So, you might as well take your trollish attitude and go play another one of your "kiddie clickfest" games against your other brainless friends.