Don't expect the AI to get any better.

"If you can win ... you must be [cheating]." - Brad


A challenge that will take more time to deal with is that the computer players have reached the level where they are plenty tough for me. That is, unless I'm playing on a very specific setting or playing with a very specific style, the AI at higher than tough difficulties will cream me. My view is that anyone being 1.2 at anything higher than tough consistently is probably doing some sort of exploit at which point you just gotta decide whether you want to play a game or game the program? The AI doesn't "care" whether it loses. So if you figure out that you can some starbase/resource/ship combo or find some diplomacy trick to "Win" then knock yourself out. But I won't be spending my summer weekends trying to "fix" something like that.


I was just going over some of the past journals here, trying to get a feeling for the developers and the directions they intend to take the game, when I ran across this gem. Now, I think I understand Brad Wardell's remark in a previous thread I started, about finding Tough, Painful, and Crippling difficulty way too easy. He said that, basically, only cheap tactics could possibly win beyond Tough. I think I know why he said that now -- he, himself, despite designing and playing games for 15 years, according to the same journal post, can't win the game beyond that level. Argh.

Previously, I saw an interesting post from Brad Wardell on Civfanatics, where he said that he liked playing as the Romans on Small, Pangaea (one continent) worlds, in Civ 4. Ugh. Talk about cheap. If you're not familiar with Civ 4, the Romans have an insanely overpowered unique unit that stomps all over the rest of the world for quite some time -- certainly long enough to conquer a Tiny or Small, Pangaea world.

I don't like the insinuation that I must be using cheap tactics to win this game. The entire reason that I bought this game was because everyone kept talking about how the AI was so great and they had such a difficult time winning. I didn't buy it because it has no DRM (it does -- the fucking long ass serial number that I had to enter something like three times, when I installed the game), the "humor" (which generally consists of "I'm too lazy to enter any text here - ha ha, isn't that funny?", generic technobabble, or tedious, banal references to TV shows, and, worst of all, reads like some crap written by a fanboy (or Iliad, the dumbass who writes User Friendly)), the graphics or sound (which are essentially throw-away), or the "science fiction" background (which is total bullshit -- this game is about as scientific as Star Wars. I, too, used to hate it when people made a huge stink over whether Star Wars was "true SF" or whatever, but, as I progressed in my science background, I got more and more sensitive to what got classified as "science fiction", rather than "space opera" or "fantasy". As a result, I guess I'm much more a fan of what people'd call "hard science fiction", where the science actually makes sense. I do apologize for being such a wanker, in this respect. I still don't like those people so much, even though I've generally come to agree with them.).

Yes, yes, I know what you'll say. I'm being a nerd, and I can't relax and enjoy the game, for its humor. I hate this kind of humor. And, yes, I am a nerd. I've been a gamer for twenty five years (take that, Brad Wardell, with your paulty fifteen! I mean, hey, if we're going to be bragging here...). I used to write computer games like "The Political Machine" or whatever bullshit Stardock wrote before GalCiv. Back then, everyone was a programmer, because computer games were so rare (and, quite frequently, poorly done, so the bar was quite a bit lower than today). I also wrote quite a lot of fiction. Not all of it was good, to be sure, but I'd like to think that it was above the level of Master of Orion fanfic. I mean, really!! Is there no one amongst you who has ever played MOO? It's a one-to-one correllation, essentially: humans as diplomatics and traders, the mysterious "precursors", the powerful civilization that comes out of nowhere to randomly destroy colonies, starbases, etc. I could go on all fucking day.

I'm sick of people who don't have a creative bone in their body simply referencing pop culture. The Yor? Cylons. The Drengin? Klingons. Wink, wink. Yeah, I caught all the hidden references in the game. The same, tired, overused quotes and references to Star Trek, Hitchhiker's Guide, etc. I've heard people quote these things so often, I'm beginning to think that now I've got the entire movies, books, or TV shows memorized, too. I'd rather fill my head with useful information. I'm not obsessive-compulsive, but I'm starting to feel like I've been turned into one, thanks to all the fanboys on the internet.

Modding. Before I close, I just wanted to say that the back of the box lied. There is no modding in this game. This game is as moddable as a title from the 1990s! Oooh, you can change the names of the races! Ooooh, you can change the names of the techs! Do you people know what a true mod is? Try looking at Oblivion or Civ 4. You know what's sad? Alpha Centauri, released probably ten years ago, is just as moddable as this game, and it has more features, better music, more plot, actual science, insightful points (Lal's speech on freedom, for example), and the same horrible AI. Alpha Centauri was a great game, but it wasn't very moddable, and it was too easy. But -- here's the catch -- it was multiplayer. Tell me, Brad, exactly what features did Alpha Centauri have not implemented, due to being MP? It has more fucking features than your game!

Argh! MP! You know why this game doesn't have MP? It's because none of you people have the self-confidence or ability to play against another human being. I can't believe so many people here find this game difficult! You want to know what my strategy for winning on the high difficulty levels is? Here:

1) Rush a small handful of colony ships. You don't need all that many. The AI goes berserk in trying to colonize every single planet. Just take whatever it leaves you.
2) Ignore any threats. Without Planetary Invasion, they can't do shit. Much to my annoyance, neither can I.
3) Research a few diplomatic or influence technologies, as desired. The AI never researches either, so you'll have a monumental bonus to your diplomacy and/or influence soon.
4) Trade a few techs to the weakest AIs. They'll give up everything they have, just to have the scraps you feed them, thanks to your overwhelming diplomacy ability. Half of the AIs in the game will also be inexplicably stuck doing no research, on Genius and Incredible. Why? I don't know. Ask Brad. He's the one insinuating that my strategy is cheap. Because, as we all know, his AI is INCREDIBLE. My best guess is that he programmed them to spend every single dime they have buying colonizers. Why is that ridiculous lease system even in the game? The only reason I can fathom is because he wants to cripple half the AIs.
5) Build a token amount of defensive ships. Someone probably has Planetary Invasion by now. Or you probably do. Once, I did use a cheap tactic involving putting five lasers on a cargo hull. Hah! That was funny. The AI was scared to death of me for about 25-50 turns. No matter that the cargo ship had 1 hit point, no sensors, no life support, no defenses, no engine, nothing. Just five lasers. Yep, great AI that you'd have to use cheap tactics to beat. I became disgusted with myself for taking such bad advantage of his poor AI skills, and I swore to never do this again.
6) Build up your economic infrastructure. Build a starbase or two, build some trade ships, do a social project that makes money, whatever. They're all good choices, and the more, the better.
7) Build up more infrastructure, such as wonders. Or declare war on one of the AIs. Either works fine, at this point. Preferably, antagonize an Evil civilization into declaring war on you. If you want, antagonize a Good one, instead. If they declare war on you first, all your allies with intercede and no one will make a stink about you being too warlike. Or, if you feel like not being so diplomatic and sneaky, just declare war on everyone at once.
8) Make some ships that will utterly annihilate your chosen enemy. They probably haven't researched a single defensive tech, and they typically only research one single weapon tech. In the odd case that an AI has researched a defensive tech, simply take away one of the other components (such as a second engine or additional life support), and add another weapon. They never put more than one or two defensive structures on their ships.
9) Slaughter their entire fleet. This is the easiest part. It's like a knife through butter. I feel almost guilty destroying AI after AI like this, because they can't muster up the simplest challenge to my ship design. What the fuck are they thinking when they send fleet after fleet to suicide themselves against my custom-designed Korxbusters or Drenginslayers?
10) Make a few troop transports. Optimally, it'd be better if you made them MUCH earlier. But, that's not necessary, if you're feeling lazy. After having his military devestated, the AI will basically just sit there, waiting for your troop transports of doom to carve out massive portions of his empire.
11) He'll surrender to someone else. Don't fret. It's not that big of a deal. You probably conquered all the good planets, anyways. Who cares if you lose out on conquering a PQ 3 world?
12) You're probably number one in military strength now. Accept all the tribute that you're given. Build up your infrastructure and economy again. I like to pump out about 25 or 30 constructors after a big war, in order to finance my rebuilding of the conquered worlds. The AI can't build infrastructure for shit.
13) Declare war on an evil race, or wait for the Iconions to do it. Join the Iconions. Or, hell, declare war on the Iconions. Depends on how aggressive (and evil) you feel. If you're playing the Yor or Drengin, might as well go ballistic.
14) Join in with the good races on the glorious war of conquest against the evil races, subjugate the good races, or trade with everyone. My strategies are actually somewhat FLUID. Not cheap. Fuck you, Brad. I'm sorry that I can beat your pathetic AI so easily.
15) Win the game. Since you have most of the galaxy either eating out of your hand (Good) or scared shitless of you (Evil), go for political. This is particularly easy for Good races who've been devious in their diplomacy (playing the evil races against each other, for example). This is much harder for Evil races, unless you went ballistic and killed nearly everyone. Whoever is left will be all-too-willing to form an alliance with you. If you're neutral, you have more work cut out for you, perhaps. Go for an influence victory or side with the Good races and purge the universe of Evil. Or, form an alliance with both the Good and Evil races, for an even easier political victory than the Good races. The tech victory is also quite easy for Neutral races, given the overpowering advantage they have in the Neutrality Learning Centers. Just engage in a bit of trading, maybe a few surgical strikes against anyone who acts all uppity, and then go back to researching. Conquest is a bit long and tedious for my tastes. I prefer a quick, decisive military strike against anyone who won't play nice, then a return to my victory strategy.
13) If you're still having trouble with the Drengin going ballistic on everyone, and you feel you're next, build up your military. Make some ships custome-designed to kill the Drengin. Don't use the throw-away default ships. They suck beyond belief. Just name your ships Drenginslayer MK1 or whatever, load it up with a few weapons, a few defenses, and about 25 to 30 speed. This will give you an unstoppable advantage. No Drengin planet is defended by more than three or four ships, so just send in your surgical strike, take a few planets, and the Drengin will be begging you for peace. Depending on your current mood, grant it or eliminate them.

I could go into more detail here, but I'm seriously having trouble imagining what points need elucidating. I mean, yeah, I could give you point-by-point instructions on how to make a Korxbuster. But that's something you probably need to learn for yourself, through a couple games. Usually, the AI doesn't use enough defense. Use this to your advantage. Usually, the AI makes high offense fleets with very little defense. Use this to your advantage, too. Usually, the AI puts its weakest ships in reserve, as defenders, then sends out its most powerful ships to some random location. I dunno. Just hunt them down and blow them away. That's what I do. It's usually not very difficult to find them, with no sensors, and without Eyes of the Galaxy. Send out a few fleets on recon duty. Keep a fleet or two around to destroy any stragglers, near his core planets. Always make sure you've got a fleet in reserve around your own core planets, in order to destroy the inevitable, pittiable force your enemy sends. Don't play defensively. I did that once, and my ships -- while good -- were destroyed easily by the AIs fleets. Very bad strategy. That's how the AI plays. Learn from the AI's mistakes.

Okay, finally -- what's with the Cult of Brad here? I don't understand it. He calls you cheaters, tells you he's done with improving the game (because HE can't win it anymore), and you cheer him on? The fuck? I don't take well to that. No game developer I've ever heard of in the history of gaming has EVER done that before. He's like some whiney kid in an FPS saying that you're too good at the game and must be cheating. But he just has absolutely no clue how to play the game.

I'm usually not good enough at FPSes to get claims of cheating. I can hold my ground, though, even though I'm almost 35 and have dulled reflexes. I understand how to play the games. Hell, I LIKE trying my luck against other people, even the 14 year olds who can destroy me quite easily, in every session. Sometimes I get lucky. Who knows. But I'm not so chickenshit that I hide behind this "online gamers are too haaaard! other people have skiiiiiill! they might beeeeeeat me!" whine. Oh, please. Once I help my girlfriend with her initial strategies, she can learn awesome strategies herself and surpass me -- even when she thinks that she's going to suck at a game, because it's a genre with which she's unfamiliar. It doesn't take that much time or effort; just a willingness to learn.

Yes, I know that I'm banned. Yes, I know that I should just uninstall the game and play something else. Yes, I know that I shouldn't let the door hit me on the way out. And, yes, I know that you think I'm a whiney, bipolar (you'd actually be right about that one. I'll give you that.), elitist (yeah, probably true) asshole (and I should probably admit to that one, too).

So, whatever you say is probably true. I'll grant you that. But try to think about what I've said, under all of the venom and snarkiness. Is it true, too?

Finally, let's just say that I don't like when game developers promise to improve a game's AI, then whine that it's too much effort to do so. It's your fucking job, man. Do it. Don't whine about it. And, for God's sake, don't whine about it in a "blog".
86,352 views 87 replies
Reply #1 Top
You've got some points, but come on. There are a million ways to play the game, enjoy it for what it's worth.

For me, i think they should have made it a $50 game, and spent more money all around and more specifically on polishing the game. The AI is very good, but it still does things that just blow my mind. Best examples would be planetary managemnent, or not attacking my stack of 10 transports i accidently moved too close to one of his planets.

As long as they keep improving the AI, i'll keep playing, and despite what you've read they are(or have been) still improving it. I personally think Brad is somehow artificially limiting himself on how much CPU the AI uses. All i want is during my turn the game to run smooth, and when i hit turn that the AI makes respectable moves in around under a minute or so. Hopefully the allow intensive CPU option will help.
Reply #2 Top

Your comments would have more weight if your metaverse scores showed you winning games at higher difficulty levels and if your wins weren't all political victories or technology victories.  Yes, the game isn't partiuclarly hard if you decide to just bribe players into liking you, particularly if you set them up right, and then declare a diplomatic victory. 

Rather than a long list of "how I win" points why not just say "Make it harder to get a political victory like I'm doing."

Argh! MP! You know why this game doesn't have MP? It's because none of you people have the self-confidence or ability to play against another human being. I can't believe so many people here find this game difficult!
End of quote

Well, speaking as the person who was the top ranked Total Annihilation on Boneyards for a year, in the top 10 players of the human faction in Starcraft for the first few months, one of the top ranked players on Battle.net for Warcraft 3 for the first few months, I feel confident in saying that I know how to play other people multiplayer.

Like all strategy games, when you play a particular opponent -- human or computer -- if you find a consistent weakness in their strategy then you can beat it.  The advantage of multiplayer is that player strategies evolve quicker -- GalCiv's AI can only evolve through updates after all.

The AI, since I coded it, is designed to thwart my style of play.  But that doesn't mean there are others out there who play differently.  All I can do is read what people write and see what I can do to have the AI counter that.

There's hardly a "Cult" here.  Rather, there is a frustration with people who just jump on and start making criticisms out of the blue. 

Why might you get flamed? You've had an account here for about a month. You probably never played 1.0, 1.0X, or even 1.1 (none of your scores indicate that).  So people might get annoyed seeing some guy who's really not bothering to recognize just how much the game has changed since 1.0, particularly the computer AI.

Are all the reviewers part of the "cult"?  They found 1.0 -- the original 1.0 out of the box -- to have a challenging computer AI.  The 1.2 AI is much better than 1.0 and 1.3 will be still better. 

The other issue is that a computer game AI can't be compared to some theoretical perfection but rather against other computer game AI's.  What game's AI's do you think play better?  Do you know what the "Crippling" computer AI setting even means? It means that a couple of the AI are set to being slightly above "intelligent" with the rest set to being below intelligent.

If you want a more challenging game, set each computer player to "genius" and see how you do. 

Incidentally, I am aware that it's easy to use the Romans to do a rush on a small map.  My point about that was to show how a given game's difficulty depends a lot on lots of different factors.

Incidentally, I never said that people who win the game are cheating. I said that IF you're winning at the very highest level that you are probably doing some sort of exploit -- not cheating.

 

Reply #3 Top

Not all of it was good, to be sure, but I'd like to think that it was above the level of Master of Orion fanfic. I mean, really!! Is there no one amongst you who has ever played MOO? It's a one-to-one correllation, essentially: humans as diplomatics and traders, the mysterious "precursors", the powerful civilization that comes out of nowhere to randomly destroy colonies, starbases, etc. I could go on all fucking day.
End of quote

Just thought I'd mention this - another reason you might get flamed is that you really don't know a lot about the game or the people you're flaming.

For example, the ORIGINAL Galactic Civilizations for OS/2, came out BEFORE Master of Orion in terms of public beta. 

It's easy to criticize when you aren't familiar with the subject matter I guess.

Modding. Before I close, I just wanted to say that the back of the box lied. There is no modding in this game. This game is as moddable as a title from the 1990s! Oooh, you can change the names of the races! Ooooh, you can change the names of the techs! Do you people know what a true mod is? Try looking at Oblivion or Civ 4. You know what's sad? Alpha Centauri, released probably ten years ago, is just as moddable as this game, and it has more features, better music, more plot, actual science, insightful points (Lal's speech on freedom, for example), and the same horrible AI. Alpha Centauri was a great game, but it wasn't very moddable, and it was too easy. But -- here's the catch -- it was multiplayer. Tell me, Brad, exactly what features did Alpha Centauri have not implemented, due to being MP? It has more fucking features than your game!
End of quote

Techncially speaking, all games are moddable by your definition if you have a hex editor I guess.

Hey, you don't like the game, that's your right. 

Incidentally, the reason we don't have multiplayer is because we wanted GalCiv II to be $39.95 and not $49.95.  We didn't feel enough players wanted multiplayer to justify the additional cost. I think time has shown that to be correct.  Do you recall how much Alpha Centauri cost? I happen to have my copy here, still with the price tag on from Software Etc. (remember them?) -- $49.95 and that was in 1999.

As for modding, I feel a game that allows you to easily create your own races, your own ships, your own tech trees, your own computer interfaces, (heck there's a Bab5 total conversion around here somewhere), your own planetary improvements, your own star base parts, and more is moddable.  You don't agree, that's fine.

One last thing, I said I was a commercial game DEVELOPER for 15 years, not just a gamer. I've been gaming for 30 years now. ;)  :d 

Reply #4 Top
Rendorax, you seem to take this very seriously. Why not just make your own space game? If your throw half the passion into your game as you do your posts, you should do fine in that endeavor.
Reply #5 Top
Most of the strategies involve developing the planets better than the AI, which is exploitation because you can do something that the AI can't/doesn't want to do. Your strategy/excuse for MP reminds me of this:





Brad, your quotes aren't working.
Reply #6 Top
Rendorax take a time out and step away from the computer and you will feel better I promise you!

Really learn to relax! and have fun!
Reply #7 Top

I wouldn't call out-doing the AI in planet development an exploit really.

But I would say that if EVERY SINGLE ONE of your submitted games is a victory through political alliance it might point that you really have just mastered the art of bribing computer players to like you enough to get an alliance and shows that the AI needs to be improved there.

But if I'm not winning games at suicidal or at least obscene I wouldn't be making posts trashing the game's AI but that's just me.

I can beat Civ IV at very high levels but only in certain circumstances. DOes that mean it's AI "sucks"? No. 

Every computer player does things that don't always make tactical sense to a human observer.  But the question is whether it provides a good challenge and I think at this point it's safe to say that most players find it challenging.  

Like I said at the start, if Rendor was submitting victories through conquest or even influence at say obscene difficulty then it might have more weight.  It does, however, provide the incentive to make it a lot harder at higher levels to win through political alliances.

Reply #8 Top
hmmm...waiting to see if this Rendorax bloke has a rebuttal   
Reply #9 Top
So you've been playing for 25 years and you still cuss on forums like your 12?
Reply #10 Top
Pleasant guy. See the same type in my workplace day in, day out (I manage a LAN Gaming Center). Someone always thinks they can do things better, or they know someone who has, and won't see reason, and gets abusive about it.
Reply #11 Top
What game has better AI? also what other games AIs are being consistantly improved? Maybe the AI inst all that it was cracked up to be right now but it isnt bad,and is being improved. Other games such as Civ 4 have AIs that are powered by monumental start boosts. Sure the Ai gets a 125% eco boost on genius but thats not bad when comparing to a civ 4 monarch or emperor game where you cant even build wonders because the AI has such a huge research bonus, and starts with settlers, workers, and archers. Not to mention the buddy trades and + relations that it gets with the other AIs. There are probably more advantages going for that I dont know about, but i do know that GalCiv2 has a decent unhandicapped AI.
Reply #12 Top
Rendorax better cool down. I just got the game, played my first game, and - cool down, man! If this AI sucks, then go away and play something else! I've played starcraft age of empires 2 + 3, Diablo, Warcraft, battle for middle earth 2, civ IV, and it doesn't get much better than this. And, it's being updated. It's pretty good. Try a different genre, because this game is one of the best.

P.S. Hurry up with the updating, please. I really want version 1.0. Thanks!
Reply #14 Top
Come on guys...does anybody think that the Ai is really good in this game, especially if you are playing since the the release and has by now learned how the game works...

I don't play that much in the metaverse, so don't throw my score against me...

But normally I win now every game on Genius...and mostly also by Diplomatic victory, that is because I have an alliance with one other race (as this my normal wy to play)...And now don't start alliance are an exploit...so why are they in the game...and some times i win via influence...oh yes influence star bases are an exploit, because they are in the game....to build the right buildings on bonuses is an exploit, becuase the Ai does it not most of the time...

Really guys stop bitching...this game is fun, but the ai is not that great and has even gotten worse in some manors since 1.0...

What has happened in 1.0 and doesn't happen that often:
- Ais using more than one weapon system in the galaxy (and i have stopped trading weapons systems at all, to get at least two weapon systems)...this has the big consequence that ai also only defends against this weapon and when you use an other weapon you have big advantage...what an exploit...And even if you declare war on the ai and it is a real big nation it takes a long time (more than a game year) to see ships with a first defense against you (especially as the ai not researches any defenses beside against the main weapon) (oh I have activated the cpu intensive algorithms)...
- The Trading of techs is worth, there are some techs that the ai won't trade, even if you give them 20 or more advanced techs...As soon as you have an alliance and some diplomatic skill you will get the same techs for one shitty other technology...
Have you ever gotten a trade for a starbase in 1.2 I've not...again offer 20 great technologies for an economic starbase in your influence...and the ai won't trade...
- finally let's talk about war declaration...just place a troop transport beside an enemy world and he will declare war...even when his ships are not even near your space...why in hell does the ai not wait till it can do anything in a war before it get creamed...and this happens also, when you place lot of your fleets in enemy territory....


Things the ai really needs to get till the expansion:
- is an improved algorithm for planet building (this should not be that hard, as I like most player, I optimize only planet for planet and try to use nearly all resources, the only think cautiously used should be farming tiles)...
There are only small algorithms estimate the strongest point research, militiary production, influence, economics after setlling the bonus tiles and develop the planet in that direction, if there is no strong point decide where your empire wide weakest point is and develop to improve that...sounds easy enough?
- Improve the trading in diplomatic...don't block technologies like this happens for techs like the newest weapons and planetary invasion...even you don't like your opponent, if he offers more than enough, then you would trade...
- at the start of the game start wirh a random weapon type and assign it to one race to research this weapon first and than cycle through teh weapons and races and assign each one weapon so that all weapons will be at least in the beginning researched..
- And finally fix the military power calculation like mentioned in more then one thread on this forum...


This is my small opinion and now you guys can start flaming, about how using game mechanisms is exploiting...and how i should play the game blind and standing on my head to have more fun, or mainly you think i would have more fun...I like this game and think it will be an all time classic for me, but with each game on genius it becomes easier and easier...and don't start talk about play on higher difficulty, because I don't won't to play against an Ai which gets complete unfair advantages...
gibe them more ships at the beginning mor money fine...give them a 200% bonus in production and research sucks....

And finally yes I know an Ai for a game like this is a bitch, and every new feature and rule makes it not a bit easier...I'am developing an ai myself and really know, what a hard work it is to do this..We have found one great way at least to support me in my work: Bugreports, a file where all information is stored to replay the game and which can be replayed by me till to the point where somebody says my Ai sucks, then I can take a look at this situation and try to fix it...and you can see how other people play and try to adapt to it...

So enough said...This seems to be thread of long posts have fun and stop to but stardock on a podest, they are only humans like everybody...
Reply #15 Top
He still hasnt replied. Good job Brad you crushed him. Also in MOO there was no such thing as precursors. They where actually not that much older than the races that you played in the game. Anyway that was a ggreat story line. Also i do see GC's story to be a bit lacking but that is just from my perspective, Im sure things seem different to the one who created it.
Reply #16 Top
Lol Frogboy you tell him. You know there's always going to be a "troll" on every forum that doesn't like the game and writes a post of rubbish about the AI like the OP.

I myself find the game a wonderful challenge, but, I also start every race "at war" with me. I play it like a Warlords IV game where there are no alliances (for me at least) and I don't get any retinues in this like I do in Warlords IV which has killer AI on the top two levels without monster retinues. This is a great game with a great AI in my book.

What I really don't understand is why someone college educated (I guess he is) would expect a game made for ALL AGES to be some computer BLUE code that can beat the pants off of everyone. No real normal game does that. I'm glad I get a challenge from the AI in games like Civilizations and Alpha Centauri's and Warlords and this. I'd hate to be so mathematically brained that I'd beat every game I played on any difficulty. I imagine this guy runs into that problem quite often since he plays the mechanics and not the game.

There's also a 100 different ways to setup a challenging game. I can't believe he's tried them all. Especially on gigantic maps with 7 AI opponents all at war with him from the start and all on genius settings with no trading allowed. I'd really like to see that saved game ending and won by anything other than diplomatic.

Many people complain about AI cheats, but, I enjoy as many difficulty settings as the game will allow. When I figure out how to beat one I move onto the next until I finally find one I just can't overcome. Now, I know and have read about people beating the highest difficulties of Civilizations, but, every one I've read has always been on a SMALL map with only 1 or 2 civs. That's not beating the highest difficulty. Beating the highest difficulty is beating it with every Civ AI allowed on the map and on the LARGEST map. When you beat that then I'll believe you beat the hardest difficulty (and only when I see the saved game) haha

Once again Frogboy I wouldn't worry about 1 single individual (troll) who couldn't find enjoyment in the game. You sold what nearly 300,000 copies? 200,000? Hell that's more than most niche games publishers like Matrixgames and Battlefront and HPS sell in a lifetime. Keep up the good work. Really look forward to you doing some kind of fantasy game like "Master of Magic". You'd do wonders for the fantasy gamers out here. AOW/HOMM just aren't the same and just can never muster up to what "Master of Magic" is. I still play it and still enjoy the Civilization type colonizing it has vs preset limited colonies like AOW/HOMM/MOO's etc.
Reply #17 Top
Hey Willie there's nothing wrong with battlefront ( one of the best games I ever played ).
Reply #18 Top
I agree willie sanderson, you havnt had a real good game until you have one colony left and the enemy fleets are tearing into each other. That is a game. He still hasnt replied. I also cant wait to see what genius fantasy game stardock will roll out.
Reply #19 Top
I remember when i ran across that post by Brad in the forums and felt pretty much the same way. But I was playing ( excuse me -- trying to play ) update 1.1.

I've found it pretty easy to develop a strategy to win update 1.2 on suicidal, gigantic maps, 9 opponents, tech trading on, normal rate of tech research and middle of the line galaxy settings. My victories are usually tech victories --- but that is just to shorten the game -- a conquest victory would just take too long. My strategy probably wouldn't have worked on release 1.0 -- because back then there were no money prizes for exploring anomalies i believe. I mainly just get out 3 survey ships with impulse engines inside of 7 turns and then hog the anomalies. Also the colony ships with impulse engines allow me to get to the worlds fast for colonization. Enough of my suicidal level strategy, that's how i get the jump on the AI.

I will say i believe update 1.2 is a very good game, maybe even the best turn based strategy game i've seen. However it has lots of little annoyances ( yes -- bugs ).
I've seen the AI do some pretty clever things on occasion but nothing i couldn't handle. I will say that i have been able to take down whoever i am at war with without any real difficulty ( always been the Drengin 1st in my 3 suicidal games ).
I have seen the comp AI produce ships with all different levels of defense -- seen one civ have ships 75% defensive.

Frogboy you weren't fair to him on his type of victories -- he clearly stated that he has control of his games and can win anyway he likes.

I do think Brad's original post has some interesting points -- but does he not expect us to invest time figuring out the game mechanics and coming up with specific strategies to win -- i know exactly what i want to buy/build and tech research for quite a bit -- even know how to adjust for different tile bonus's.
I still have to adjust my strategy in a number of areas as the game develops.

Oh yeah that cargo ship with 5 weapons on it would probably work ok too -- it would get killed but would probably kill at least 1 ship also. I turn my survey ships ( cargo hulls ) into a ship with 1 weapon and the rest engines -- then i run in and kill anything that has no offensive ability -- also good for scouting at the start of a turn. But the point of just making ships that fool the AI into thinking you are too tough to take on is valid -- and the power rating of the the comp civs doesn't phase me anymore. Gonna take a little more than a simple algorythm on offense, defense, and hit points.

Oh well, with update 1.2 this is a very good game to me and hopefully it'll keep getting better -- wouldn't even mind it if eventually i got wiped out on suicidal level every time as long as it was just better AI without anymore advantages than it already gets.

Reply #20 Top
Rendorax... I was all set to read your post with an open mind, and perhaps take in some of the things you said. I thought that maybe I would agree with some of them, but then I read this...

Argh! MP! You know why this game doesn't have MP? It's because none of you people have the self-confidence or ability to play against another human being


... and it just proves that you are a retard. You're just another random internet loser troll. You just don't get that people have different preferences to you. It's no wonder you've been playing games for so long, because you just don't understand real people at all.

Obviously you think your opinions are greater than all others (yawn). We've heard this before, and these trolls always leave and then everyone gets back to business as usual and having fun. So, feel free to throw your dummy out of your pram and go, nobody will miss you.

Despite that, I do think the AI needs improvement in some areas, and I've no doubt it will improve, just like it has done over the last few patches. Most people are already aware of this though, so don't try to take any credit for bringing it to the community's attention.

While you were doing all your 'extensive research' into the journals and other posts, you must have somehow missed all the other people who talked about it before you did. The difference is, we're all talking about how to improve it in a rational way, not throwing a hissy fit and storming out with our handbags dragging behind us.

Since you decided to criticize its lack multiplayer, I can only assume your one of those people who got teasy about it not being in the game, and decided to research all the games other flaws so you can tell everyone how crap it is and how we're not really having fun after all. (Oh wait, I've been such a fool all this time! lol)

So, goodbye. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Reply #21 Top
Firstly let me say again, 1.2 update is a very good game. With fixing most of the annoyances ( bugs ) and making a few improvements in the interface and AI, GalCiv2 could be a totally fantastic game. And I do think it'll get there and maybe quite soon.

Having said that -- I can totally relate to where Rendorax is coming from. The game's current AI is overhyped for what it currently is. I totally expected levels above Normal to be very difficult to win at. Personally i think most people should be able to win at levels up to and including Crippling with a little practice and understanding of the games concepts and how they work. Unless of course, you mean to handicap them by making them play with less than their best game -- lots of ways to make the game harder ( race ability picks, game size,... etc ... ).

Like i've posted before I can probably win 8-10 out of 10 games of the kind i've practiced for and like to play ( Suicidal, gigantic map ... etc ). No way with the hype for this game would i have expected that -- would have expected to be lucky to win 1 in 10 maybe and then only if i was a little choosy on the maps generated.

Also, I've read thru the posts to get some idea of where the developers are coming from. Got the same impression as Rendorax that the developers think you are cheating or taking advantage of something unusual if you are winning at high difficulty levels -- that can be really irritating. Also the developers seem to have the idea that the game is not all that buggy --- well lots of annoyances the like of which i've never noticed in Alpha Centauri, Civ2, Colonization, MOO2, or Imperiallism2. Personally I couldn't even play update 1.1 too far into the game because it crashed pretty often on me and wouldn't load a saved game after a couple of days. Had to Install release 1.0 and play that for a week or 2 till update 1.2 came out. And release 1.0 is pretty much a different game.

I also got the impression that the developers weren't going to do a lot of improving on the AI, I don't believe that anymore -- think they are totally into it and i have high hopes.

I can understand some of the devlopers frustration with having to close all of the strategic loopholes. Example: An idea that has come up is to give a world away then take it back right away to get free techs -- and do it multiply times on the same turn. I'ld hate to have to close loopholes like that but heh ....

Rendorax was a little insulting to the community but heh, sounds like the communities hype of the game was a big reason he invested his time and money into the game -- sure was for me -- i was not impressed with the demo. Still no reason to complain about no multiplayer options -- that is clearly a well known fact that there isn't any in GalCiv2.

But if you think he's out the door -- don't bet on it. Too many positive points going for the game. Only game I know of that the AI doesn't cheat or treat the human player differently. Also the strongest updating of a game of this type. And some of the UI's are really very good. And lots of depth and totally different strategies are playable and winable -- see the post on useless game elements ( developers must really be patting themselves on the back reading those ).
Reply #22 Top
Do you know what the "Crippling" computer AI setting even means? It means that a couple of the AI are set to being slightly above "intelligent" with the rest set to being below intelligent.


Is this the real Frogboy?!

In my game, crippling means *all* the AIs are set to genius. I think you can manually tone a few down and still have it called crippling, but the default is genius all round.
Reply #23 Top
To the original poster:

First I would like to give you credit for writing such a long and thoughout post, it takes alot of time and you must really be dedicated to do that.

The AI in my opinion is great. Is it human? No. But it is still the best AI I have ever seen in a game like this. You posted a plan of 10+ steps to beat the AI at higher difficulties, and thats actually a compliment to the creators not at flame.

Now dont get me wrong, Im not the average fanboi who will stand up for a game just because Im afraid that the creators will abandon it or "me". It does however sound like this maybe isent the game for you and that your expectations were to high. You dont have to play a game if you dont like it you know. Thats why its called "game" and not "work"

Prior to posting this I dident read all the other reply's which I probably should have, but I like your points and I hope everyone else can see that its not just a rant but a post which took you alot of time and effort in order to make.

As for multiplayer: I dont know why so many people voted against it. Myself I would love it. And it wouldent be those 24 hour maratons either as people would play on tiny or small maps most of the time. Multiplayer would also make the game's "lifetime" last alot longer.

Apologies for typos and grammar as English is not my native language.

-IC
Reply #24 Top
My apologies, Brad, but I too will come reluctantly in the defense of Rendorax. I love this game, spend a lot of my free time with it outside of wife and life. While I don't agree with his approach, he does bring up the valid point that the AI can be improved. I play suicidal, recently playing Huge (large in the past), and after rough beginnings stabilizing my economy, I come to dominate the AI. But has I mentioned in another post somewhere, that can be easily changed by some tweaks to the AI's behavior. I'm just going to repost what I've said for hope of some exposure to some changes I think most agree will improve AI's ability to kick our collective asses on suicidal:

1. In version 1.2, the AI has gotten better about what to build, but not the pace of planetary improvements. I'm still surprised to find mid- to end-game AI planets that aren't fully developed. I realize AIs already have bonuses in suicidal and may see additional buildings as a waste, but imagine how much more deadly they would be if they actually had more factories/labs/econs. They're good about developing bonus tiles, but too slow with the rest.

2. Have the AI actually spend their excess cash. I don't see the point of keeping excess cash, especially if they're losing. Spend the money and buy the ships/planetary improvements and crank them out. It amazes me to no end that the AI just sits on piles of cash.

3. What wins the wars for me is constant updating of my vessels to match the AI I'm attacking/defending against. That is the only reason I may pile cash for. Have the AI do the same. And have them update before they start attacking. Or, more importantly, have the AI move their ships outside of my range before updating. A battleship with one hitpoint is no match to anything.

4. Have the AI prepare for war...not just declare it without having been prepared with appropriate fleets/transports. Again, that leads to updating the attacking fleets to defend against my strengths and attack my weaknesses. Move the fleets towards the planets/bases then surprise attack just like every Human player does. This would go a long way to making a game more challenging.

As an ancillary to 4, the AI should also take into consideration my economy/CASH reserves and CURRENT TECHNOLOGY before attacking. On paper, it may show that I have a weak military/outdated ships. But that can change in an instant the second I update my attack ships to improved weapons/defenses. This gets the AI every time and I manage to plow through their fleets with relative ease.

5. As heard before, improve diplomacy so that there is better coordination between allied races in battles. That is usually the only way to overpower a skilled human player. Also, Brad, I think you should re-allow some trades again because it's hampering the AI's ability to diversify its weapons arsenal. And nerf the ease of tech trading between allies. It's almost an exploit how easily I can get advanced techs from my allies by giving away crap. At least make it harder when the AI sees I tend to conquer, even as an ally.

6. Allow the AI to break alliances and gang-up/attack when it becomes clear that the Human player, even Good ones, are on a conquering war path. Usually too slow to realize and since they don't coordinate, they're toast.

Reply #25 Top
Frogboy,

I dislike the OP's tone, but in one respect he does have a point. Whilst the AI in Galciv is the best I have ever seen in a 4X game, there are still things it could do better in order to make it a real challenge.

I like playing Gigantic maps with lots of planets; I like huge, involved, slow games. So I want the AI to be good at this type of game too, and it's... well, it's OK. I play on equal terms with the AIs. Recently I discovered that backing off the number of AIs helps the remaining ones a LOT; when there were 8 or 9 AI races, I would win almost routinely. With 4 or 5 I have to do some work, especially early on.

Specifically, the AI is weak in 3 specific respects

(1) It's too focused on military strength. It doesn't seem to recognise economic power as a threat. The AIs have not read "The Prince"... it's not what forces you have, it's what you can replace and maintain that counts.

(2) It doesn't plan ahead even for a specific strategy, like eg: declaring war, and it's not decisive when it does. Two words: PEARL HARBOUR. When the AI declares war on me, I should be hurting that same turn. My invariable experience is that when it does declare war on V1m's lightly armed (or even unarmed) dominion, it says "WE DECLARE WAR". Then Nothing Happens for 6 or 10 or even 15 turns. By which time I have built more ships than the AI ever dreamed could exist. And because I've only just built them, they're specifically designed to fight that race, and with the most modern tech available. I usually have time to do some crash research into Beam weapons or Missile Defences or whatever

(3) It doesn't respect speed. On bigger maps, this is essential, yet I'm still seeing transports with 5 movement points from an AI with better engine tech than me - Mine have 32 moves! Drives are ridiculously cheap, so there's no excuse.

Now to be fair, I've been playing 4X games since Reach For The Stars on the Amiga, and I reckon I'm pretty good at them. Perhaps I represent a small segment of your customers when I say that there's no such thing as too much intelligence in the AI players. But as long as they're playing by the same rules as the human players, that's exactly how I feel. I'm not a programmer, but I reckon you're a bl00dy good AI coder, and I say throw down: gimme the best you got. I want that AI to be so smart that it waits to launch it's attack until Fridays when it knows I'll be full of pizza and beer. I want it to get its PhD while its waiting for me to finish my colony rush.
If your AI can beat me fair and square then I'll have really got my money's worth. I won't dislike the game because of it; I'll... I'll VENERATE it!

And then, by God, I'll play some more until it can't. And then I'll tell you why.

That said, I'm playing through my first big V1.2 game, and the AI has improved significantly since 1.0. I'm pretty sure I'm going to win because of the above factors, but I think the OPs comments qualify him as an ungrateful, spoiled jerk; the after-game support you guys have supplied is exemplary, and far above any other game publisher I am aware of.