About the web poll..

There are only two possible genders, psychological problems aside.

This may not pertain here but I think the poll is about whether you have a Y chromosome or not rather than sexual preference.

There are only two possible genders, psychological problems aside.

actually there are at least 5 biological sexes, and no limit to psychological genders. XX and XY are the most common. however XXY, XYY and X0 also occur. while it may be literally and scientifically appropriate to describe such persons as abnormal, it is socially and politically correct to refer to them as intersex. if you want to be technical, gender refers to one's psychology while sex refers to one's biology. and it's incredibly offensive to desribe such psychological paradigms as "problems".

This may not pertain here but I think the poll is about whether you have a Y chromosome or not rather than sexual preference.

sexual orientation and gender identity are different things, and Dyna didn't say anything about who s/he/it is attracted to. the poll did not ask about your chromosomes. while transgender persons do retain the chormosomes they had at birth, they are no longer anatomically male or female. it is appropriate medically and socially to refer to the sexes of such persons as FTM or MTF (female to male, male to female).

you're both wrong. drop the issue, 'cause i'm willing to fight it until i get kicked off the boards. one of my best friends is gender-queer.

SD, i understand your interest in gainging demographics on your fan base. nonetheless, i'd recommmend either taking this poll down now, or changing it to include at least an "other" option, please. i had noticed the gender normativity in this poll before i saw Dyna's post, and was about to make one myself.

There may be five biological sexes, but let's face it, male and female make up the rather vast majority of that. The poll makes no mention to whether it refers to psychological or biological gender, so why not just make the assumption that it refers to biological gender instead of making a fuss over a perfectly innocent poll.

because some people aren't biologically male or female. that was half my point.

the other half of my point is political. saying things like "you're not enough of the population" or "you're problems aren't that important" is just as oppresive as hate speech.

i mean, if you want to go by numbers, then the poll is pretty useless to begin with. i can tell you right now less than 10% of the respondents will select "female". so if we're talking about vast majorities, the poll is pointless to begin with.

Do forum trolls have a gender?

This is a game forum - on such I could care less about any sex related propaganda leave it at the door please. Thank you. Is it so hard to select male or female? sheesh

Well at lest the poll will make sure very few whining women called "buttercup" or some such nonsense will be asking for more females in the game.

Course their will all ways be the annoying political correctness brigade like above ^ "oh knowz! 0.5% of the population arent represented by the poll!!!111" god i long for the good old days when people like that where rightly ignored

You only have options for 'male and female', you need one for people like me which is 'not sure'

Create a second account and quote twice, that's what I do

if i'm a troll, at least i'm not an insecure, ignorant hypocrite.

it's easy to say 'how hard is it to pick male or female' when you never have to question your place in the world.

it's easy to attack people trying to stand up for themselves when they might remove some of your centricism in the world. frankly, i could care less about political correctness in general. i've got a plenty colorful vocabulary when it comes to describing homophobes. but while you might be sitting alone in your room doing whatever it is you do when you're alone, this forum is a public setting. i was defending someone else who'd made a simple request and for it was called psychologically problematic. so who's the troll now?

you use the term 'troll' to describe anyone you disagree with, not any objective behavior. real nice. lots of integrity. yes, forum trolls have genders. and sexual orientations. i myself am a gay man. if you have a problem with that, with transgender persons, or with showing respect to various kinds of people in public, then you should go back to the 18th century where your mindset came from, and stay there. this modern world obviously isn't for you.

Well I thought it was pretty easy..... next thread......

I can't believe I'm feeding the troll, but:

actually there are at least 5 biological sexes, and no limit to psychological genders.

cannot be allowed to stand.

This false belief has gained widspread acceptance since the publication of biologist Anne Fausto-Sterling's essay published in the early 90's: "The five sexes: Why male and female are not enough". This essay is also responsible for the myth that between 1-2% of babies are born "intersex".

An article by Leonard Sax :

h t t p://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_3_39/ai_94130313/print

takes down these myths and provides an accurate summation of the science of this matter. Two quotes
---------------
This figure of 0.018% suggests that there are currently about 50,000 true intersexuals living in the United States. These individuals are of course entitled to the same expert care and consideration that all patients deserve. Nothing is gained, however, by pretending that there are 5,000,000 such individuals.
----------------
CONCLUSIONS
The available data support the conclusion that human sexuality is a dichotomy, not a continuum. More than 99.98% of humans are either male or female. If the term intersex is to retain any clinical meaning, the use of this term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female.

The birth of an intersex child, far from being "a fairly common phenomenon," is actually a rare event, occurring in fewer than 2 out of every 10,000 births.
------------

I make no value judgments here; other then the obvious: Each and every human life deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. Spreading falsehoods is no way to achieve that.


Mr. Lucky

educate yourself if you care to. i'm over it.

Link

Link

Link

I make no value judgments here; other then the obvious: Each and every human life deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. Spreading falsehoods is no way to achieve that.

while i appricate your diplomacy greatly, it isn't a statistical issue i'm concerned about. i appriciate the article you quoted; i had similar, low statistics quoted for chomosonal abnormalities in a bio class. and i believe them.

it's not a statistical issue. it's a social issue. i appriciate that you're not making a value judgement, but scientific conclusion isn't itself free of value judgement (see work by Steven Shapin, off the top of my head).

i think what burns me is how quickly the truly ignorant escalate issues like this. Dyna specified a request for "not sure". I specified a request for "at least an 'other' option', and defended Dyna's dignity for being indirectly accused of 'psychological problems.' i defended him with a big of general info about sex and gender. for it i've been labeled as a troll, which appears to be a catchall for anyone that doesn't fit the norms of a given internet board. i could care less about that.

as i said in my opening, i'll defend this issue until i'm kicked off the boards, if need be. i could care less about educating a bunch of backwater adolescents. but i'd expect StarDock to be a bit different, especially given (what is in my mind) its previous pattern of quite upstanding support for all its decent fans and customers.

ask yourself this before you counter-troll on (not you, Mr. Lucky, just everyone else):
would it actually hurt you, StarDock or GalCiv if that poll had at least one more option, to respect the slim minority?

Steven Shapin reviewing the sociology of scientific knowledge, if you think you're up for it:

Link

he was a great professor. i was a sad when he went to Havard. longer article and pretty off-topic. the major point of it is in showing that even scientific knowledge is still socially produced, and at best less-subjective or multi-subjective rather than objective.

you could also probably parallel the field with poststructuralism and foucault's work on discourse and power/knoweldge quite easily.

I don't consider you a troll, dystopic. And I was rather out of line generalizing it as "psychological problems".
As you have pointed out, some are not psychological problems, but physiological differences.

Well, I appreciate your civility, but I will say this:

Since were talking about a poll, which is by definition an attempt a statistical measurement, the statistics do matter.

In a realm where two options make up 99.98% of the total, and the expected sample is a few hundred or even a couple thousand, there really are only two options. Attempting to add a third category is statistically indefensible. It's also counterproductive if your goal is acceptance for those truly in a 'third' state. It's far far more likely that the only ones who would choose such an option are just fooling around.

And bringing up all that "5 sexes" stuff IS trollish. The point of such polls is to see if there are any Women interested in this product, nothing more. Making it into a socio/political argument is missing the point.

Mr. Lucky.

you use the term 'troll' to describe anyone you disagree with

Well, well dystopic, we meet again. It sure is funny that you do the same thing in other threads.

ahem, i think this is the first time i've used this word here, and i'm coming into this dicussuions late, but still... TROLL

the socio-political argument was a counter-point from the beginning. check the opening.

if the point of the poll is to determine if there are any women playing the game, i can accept that. the point of the poll is not exactly stated clearly in the poll, neither was anything i saw mentioned about why they put that poll up.

bringing in all the theoretical politics, okay, a bit trollish. i'm sorry. i didn't think i was providing such an inundation of information when i wrote that, and in hindsight i could have simply said "why is that a problem?" if the issue weren't so personal to me, i'd have probably approached it in a less roundabout way.

telling someone who is unsure of their sex they have problems; i'd say i'm defending against a troll far worse. thankfully he apologiezed.

Moosetek13, I saw and i do appriciate your apology. in hindsight, i don't even have a way of knowing if dyna was even serious. it doesn't matter. i wasn't trying to call you names in my original response, and i can see that at least you have integrity and quality about you.

still, there were 4 other posts following mine that were far less civil and edrudite. it's good to know there will be someone around to flip my burgers a few years down the line.

this is ridiculous there’s no real reason to have a third option unless you are a member of the ppc [political correctness police] however if people want to make a big deal about it stardock might as well put up a third fourth or fifth option however I bet that people would only select it as a joke

dystopic ,

Since you brought it up, I'll add:

I would be very careful when considering most sociological 'theories' as explanations of reality, especially those related to post-structuralism and the like. In the end, I fear they will prove deeply unsatisfying

The modern history of the "social sciences" is largely one of proving incapable of explaining *any* human behavior in a scientifically repeatable way. There is generally very little science--that is repeatable experiments proving or disproving a disprovable hypothesis--in the social sciences today. They have frequently turned to denigrating the 'hard' sciences as equally unreliable. Additionally, many of the 'advances' in social science were made in an attempt by an out-of-power group to claim 'rights' by 'scientically' overturning the established order. Witness the birth of post-structuralism in the unrest of 1960's France. Really, most of these theories should be classed as political movements not 'science' in a true sense.

Frankly, the idea that there is no such thing as objective scientific knowledge, is an intellectual dead end, no matter how you dress it up.


Mr. Lucky

my education is in sociology. that a big part of where my 'political correctness police' behavior comes from, since it requires you study all sorts of people. i could care less what you think about how other people live. but whether you like it or not, consumer-driven businesses typically hold themselves to certain standards of political correctness because all things being equal its typically more profitable not to risk offended or alienating any potential customer.

it's true that people like you would probably use it as a joke. what's stopping some people from not joking it now?

it's a valid point that the percentage of consumers that fall into another category is, from the standpoint of a business in this industry, negligable. however, if your argument is going to be based on their perogatives as a business, then gender itself is really a minor issue. unless they really thought there was a chance that enough women were playing this game to consider taking out ads in magazines like Cosmo. i'd wager they're typically connected to the same subcultural milieux as the men who play video games, and thus are exposed to them through the same means.

in other words, know what percentage of women are playing this game isn't going to help them make any more money, not unless the can correllate that infomration to something else (such as how women are learning about the game). an optional survey would be the most useful. a standalone poll is a bit of a lame duck from a business point of view, unless they were just curious about their consumers for the sake of curiousity. in which case you're right, none of it really matters except for that fact that half a dozen individuals have just collectively endorsed bigotry. sure, that doesn't matter.

actually there are at least 5 biological sexes, and no limit to psychological genders. XX and XY are the most common. however XXY, XYY and X0 also occur. while it may be literally and scientifically appropriate to describe such persons as abnormal, it is socially and politically correct to refer to them as intersex. if you want to be technical, gender refers to one's psychology while sex refers to one's biology. and it's incredibly offensive to desribe such psychological paradigms as "problems". This may not pertain here but I think the poll is about whether you have a Y chromosome or not rather than sexual preference. sexual orientation and gender identity are different things, and Dyna didn't say anything about who s/he/it is attracted to. the poll did not ask about your chromosomes. while transgender persons do retain the chormosomes they had at birth, they are no longer anatomically male or female. it is appropriate medically and socially to refer to the sexes of such persons as FTM or MTF (female to male, male to female). you're both wrong. drop the issue, 'cause i'm willing to fight it until i get kicked off the boards. one of my best friends is gender-queer. SD, i understand your interest in gainging demographics on your fan base. nonetheless, i'd recommmend either taking this poll down now, or changing it to include at least an "other" option, please. i had noticed the gender normativity in this poll before i saw Dyna's post, and was about to make one myself.

Oh please can we do without the PC crap? By the way, I want to be called a "European American". **shudders**

Go try to apply for a job. A real job. See if there is "other" under the "sex" selection.

There are and should be only two choices.

Also, did ANYONE even think for a MINUTE that the OP may have been joking? There's always some "I went to school for [insert diploma meant to beat you down with here]" guy, just waiting to jump in as the PC crusader.

you're right about those theories, lucky. postcolonial theory is excplictly purveyed by oppressed people who have no rights. i never said social science is apart from political movement, either. marxism is a perfect example. what i'm implying is that science attempts to appear as if its statements and discourse is somehow apart from the rest of human life, produced in a vacuum, and has no implication. okay, that only a tiny percentage of humans aren't XX or XY. that is a statistical fact. to say that human beings are a dichomous species is a much more significant interpretation of fact, as much so as saying it's a continuum. humans don't do well with just-facts, so even scientists are expects to interpret their results. even that scientific interpretation is subject to questions, as variance is a well-accepted part of the thoery of evolution. which is and will remain, despite how well-proven and accepted, just a thoery.

however, i feel your statements about social science are based on a narrow understanding of empiricism and science itself. reproducibility is not the end-all measure of a scientific method, but falsifyability. moreover, social science trades in hypotheses that aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, as in the physical and biological sciences. i'm not really interested in arguing over the differences. in science, the subject of inquiry determines the proper methodology. if you understand the empiricist pricipals of science, you have to admit that science never conclusively proves anything, only establishes very strongly-held theories.

but in human life, it's only about how many people agree with you that determines truth and fact. the point isn't to say science is worthless. the point is to examine how sceince is used. when you talk about science, after all, you're talking about a method of find out if something is true or not. a very simple place to start questioning the system is in who decides what will be scientifically investigated, not to mention what properly counts as 'science'.

though i have to say, it's really satsifying despite the circumstances to have an intelligent discussion in such an unexpected context.

Oh please can we do without the PC crap? By the way, I want to be called a "European American". **shudders** Go try to apply for a job. A real job. See if there is "other" under the "sex" selection. There are and should be only two choices. Also, did ANYONE even think for a MINUTE that the OP may have been joking? There's always some "I went to school for [insert diploma meant to beat you down with here]" guy, just waiting to jump in as the PC crusader.

and there's always some backwater bumpkin too afraid of what he might like just waiting to defend the status quo. do you bind your wife's feet, too?