Orion Adrian Orion Adrian

Why this game bores me silly, yet I can't stop playing.

Why this game bores me silly, yet I can't stop playing.

Or why compulsory behavior isn't always fun.

I've developed a problem with this game since I bought it; I can't stop playing it. The problem is I always find myself thinking around hour 5, "What am I still playing this game for? I've been bored silly for hours now"

While this game, like may 4X games, creates a sense of "one more turn", but I feel it lacking in that I'm not having any fun taking those extra turns. I feel like a crack addict who has gotten to the point where the game just returns me to normalcy, which isn't a very good situation to be in.

The source of the problem -- i.e. the lack of fun factor -- is caused by multiple problems which I detail below. If you think I'm in fact on crack, you can just abort now.

1) Improvements are linear and predictable. Each additional technology doesn't really get you much and what it gets you is just like 45 other technologies in the tech tree. Since technology doesn't change how you play as the game progresses, once all the planets are colonized, each turn pretty much feels like every other.

"Oh look, Lasers V; better redesign all my ships; hmm, didn't really change anything"

2) Too much abstraction. The ultimate abstraction for a game using current UI concepts is a button called "I Win" with no other features other than perhaps a titlebar. This is a reason why I state that usability principles should be applied carefully to games -- but that's for a later discussion. Unfortunately, too much abstraction leads to too little interaction and decision making on the part of the player. If the player ever gets to the point that he or she can simply play in their head, then the game is over.

"They'll take this world, I'll take it back, steal their technology and sell it to my allies/team. That'll pretty much be it for the next two to three hundred turns."

3) No soul. This often happens to "engine" games. Total Annahilation, Dungeon Siege and this game all fall into the category of excellent engine writers, no game designers. Mind you I've played all of these games extensively and bragged about their extensibility and mod support, but in the end they just don't that "Je ne sais quoi" -- they have no soul. Part of creating a soul for a game is making twofold. One making a connection between the player and the characters they are controlling. This is done through characters in the story. Enjoyable multiplayer experiences often expand from enjoyable single player experiences. Starcraft, one of the most famous sci-fi games, had an excellent story that connected the player to the game. There are additional touches like unique music (e.g. Civ IV's Baba Yetu), a good and detailed mythology (e.g. the Warcraft franchise), and communication between things commanded and the player (e.g. "Yub Yub", "Yes, my liege").

"Hmm, I just lost 60 ships. Better build 60 more."

4) Too much symmetry. This is really a combination of 1 and 3, but it bears elaborating. Chess is the example for this. Knights aren't countered with other knights; rooks with other rooks; kings with other kings. The beauty of chess and the reason I feel it's survived this long and has so many devotees is that it lacks symmetry. King side plays differently than queen side. This leads to an inability to abstract and aids in a personal connection with styles of play.

Currently there isn't any reason to pick lasers over mass drivers of missiles since they play exactly the same way. That was a lost opportunity. So I can just choose one at random at the beginning of the game and be done with it and the only reason to pick a different one is because you've adjusted to my first one; though you'll adjust to the second one just as easily.

Good games are incredibly hard to balance and that's why you see Blizzard and other very successful game manufacturers rebalancing constantly. But it's a critical need. No two units in Starcraft are the same and the races play very differently. This has constantly been complimented by the people who play the game.

Orion Adrian
40,444 views 64 replies
Reply #51 Top
The success of chess, as stated, is after about half a dozen moves, you constantly have to re-evaluate your position. Each game by definition is dynamic every turn.

I can go by for 15 to 20 minutes or more not adjusting my strategy or reacting to stimuli in GalCiv2. No matter what game you're playing you shouldn't be able to just sit there doing the same thing repeatedly.

Now, there are two different things being discussed with relation to RTS's and other games in general.

1) Assymetry of races. This can be helpful if done right. It adds replayability and expands the number of things you have to master, but limits them to a race at a time. I.e. hidden complexity. Complexity is not bad if you can manage it. A car is rediculously complex, but the interface to controlling it is very simple; for that matter so is a computer.

2) Dyamic play. This is caused by having to adjust to major changes in variables. Bunkering works in StarCraft until Siege Mode is discovered. Tanks rule in StarCraft until you get aircraft, aircraft rule until you get your special units. You have to constantly adjust strategies every X minutes because the variables change. And these aren't slow ramp ups.

Civ does this partially by having continents, boats, aircraft, and nukes. This was a very wise choice and exposes you to changing variables. MoO2 did this by having different modules for tactical combat.

Chess does this by totally changing the dynamic of who is attacking and defending every move.




GalCiv2 seems mostly about slowing raising your numbers and that's it. There is a dynamic change between colonization and done; and no planetary invasion and planetary invasion. But that's pretty much it. As I ramped up against my opponents, it's just me trying to keep my numbers close to his which is done precisely the same way every turn. I'm not adjusting to counter new strategies, but rather the same strategy played over 6 hours.

In other words, this game needs phases. Uniformity of turns is killing it for me. Why would I want to be doing the same thing on turn 100 that I'm doing on turn 1000?
Reply #52 Top
I think a lot of the comparisons with Civ IV are a bit unfair, since a lot of it's story and soul come from real life history, rather than the game. Having been forced to take history classes, I might know that Napoleon was a bit of an elitest and obssessed with conquering the world, but I don't think that Civ IV goes out of its way to establish anything about the characters itself. Civ IV relies more on people knowing history than establishing any soul itself.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of history classes, so I found a lot of the characters and races to be quite dull. I still like the game mind you, mostly for the gameplay options rather than any story or depth.

-Dewar
Reply #53 Top
I think it's fair to say that GalCiv is a lot smoother in terms of how it changes, technologically and economically. There aren't any huge milestones out there. However, on a strategic level I do find it changes quite satisfyingly, dependent on how a battle goes, what the AI had on a particular planet you've captured and so on.

One example of that is when I captured an enemy's homeworld, and gained the influence wonder it had built there. This shifted the game dramatically. I went from military conquest to cultural in a few turns of frantic embassy building and a couple of starbases later I'd won. So the game really does change dramatically, but not necessarily because of your increase in economic or technological power, which are generally rather gradual.

Reply #54 Top
if I'm a race that has advanced mental powers and my imbalances is to build a ship that can amplify my powers and project a defensive field around my fleet that gives it a -3 to damage taken (think moveable starbase kind of defense) my game will play out completely differently if I start it next to this race versus starting next to the religious fanatic race that gets one kamakaze attack before combat starts and will use that to take out my defensive ship every time.




You say this negatively, but its a great example of what I'm talking about. I cannot for the life of me digest why cookie-cutter gameplay is preferable to a situation in which you have to adjust to your enemy. Again, its a case of throwing strategy off the bus and replacing it with memorization of build/research/etc. orders.


I guess it is a gamestyle choice. I can't understand why someone would want to play a game that is wholely dependant on starting position. Going back to Civ, I guess you are one of those people who would enjoy playing random leaders with random traits and never restart the game if you found out you were stuck on an island with room for only one city. I have a certain play style (I'm a builder/economy kinda ruler) and I like that GC2 gives me the choice to design my units the way I like by combining technologies and not have it so lockstep like Civ4 so I can play mostly my kind of game, with some variation due to who my neighbors are. By having smaller tech advances and multiple ways to combine them, coupled with races that are similiar with subtle but effective differences, I can play a variation of "my" kind of game every time.

There are certain games I just don't enjoy playing out. Starting a game wedged between two warlike races and spending the next 4 hours fighting it out with fleets of 3-4 small ships because everything I have is going into ship production and I can't spare the research and can't trade is my idea of torture. If it brings you a sense of accomplishment because you can beat the game no matter what it throws at you then more power to you.

I think the game has enough variability with map size, tech speed, habitable planets that most people can find what they want in the game. Zorrmorph, you seem be looking for a game that will force you to adapt in order to win. I agree this game doesn't offer that, but it does allow you to change the starting game variables and pick the game you want to play. Hopefully someone can mod the game along the lines of what you're looking for.
Reply #55 Top
The first poster is just a whiner...some people need to whine about everything or when they have nothing to whine about they tend to whine for nothing.
Reply #56 Top
The point is still being ignored. You can adjust the starting situation all you want, but it doesn't change the dynamic of the game. Having dynamic play does not mean having the starting situation dictate everything, as is being continually and falsely asserted as being my point-of-view.

I agree that being able to design units is a good strategic aspect, though it is limited by the repetitiveness in other areas. For your building/economy style of play even(which I also tend towards), that could be made more interesting if you couldn't always research the same techs in exactly the same order. Or if you didn't have to tech whore to the whole galaxy and all the races didn't end up at pretty much the same level techwise all the time. Then you might have to make some tough military vs. infrastructure vs. research type of choices.

And we will have to agree to disagree on the gamestyle thing, as you mentioned. You like to play the same game every time, and I can't stand it, and that's pretty much where we'll have to leave it. On the subject of modding, the things I would need to change cannot be changed. If they could, I'd be making the mod myself.
Reply #57 Top
At the end of the day the game can't be all things to all people.

GalCiv is about civilization progression over time. Players are expected to envision their own stories for themselves. It doesn't feed it to people. It's open ended and left to the imagination.

Civilization IV relies on real world history as its back story. It's gameplay is extremely linear with the only real change over many hours of play the switch between units that can fly and go on water. GalCiv II doesn't have that but it has ship design and the need to adapt your units for different situations.

In Civ IV, ever game is pretty much the same game. Every time. There's no game where you don't want to use cannons. The strategies are the same every time. There resources in the game are pretty interchangeable.

The more I think of it, the more absurd it is to hear anyone bitch that GalCiv II doesn't have enough soul/strategic dynamic. Civ IV has no galactic resource equivalent. You either are missing a key resource and restart (you fail to get iron or copper early and you're screwed). It has no starbase equivalent. I end up playing the game the same way over and over.

In GalCiv II, by contrast, I might decide to take the political route to win. Another game I might try the influence path. It depends on many cirumstances dictated by the game itself. In Civ IV I choose my strategy before the game. The game conditions don't affect my strategy much.

The tech tree in GalCiv is, like FB's mentioned before, is more of a toolbox. You pick and choose different techs to implement your strategy. The player has to make important strategic choices.

In Civ? Nope. No strategic options. You always get the same techs. The question is merely one of order which doesn't alter that much. Religion or access to a particular resource to fit your preordained strategy might tweak it.

For Civ to compete with GalCiv II in terms of strategic depth it would need:

#1 The ability to design units that have different strengths and weaknesses.
#2 The ability to project your territory in a user defined way. Make Civ's forts able to extend borders or something.
#3 Change the tech tree so that different strategies preclude being able to realistically get a certain tech. Taking a particular religious route means I can't research weapons.

And don't get me started on the "soul". In Civ IV, every player says the same thing. Playing as the Romans is the same as playing as the Egyptions other than starting bonuses. Will the Romans treat the Greeks any differently than they treat the Mongols? I don't thik so.

Much of this thread reads like a bunch of Civ fanboys who've only got the most basic understanding of GalCiv II. We'll see which game has people's imagination in 6 months.

I like Civ IV but it's repetitive and boring after awhile with the only viable strategy that involves real user interaction the conquest victory. The other victories involve running out the clock (yawn) or building a ship (yawn). The cultural victory one is dull too. I'm a pedestrian in my own strategy in Civ IV. I prefer being an active participant.
Reply #58 Top
GalCiv2 seems mostly about slowing raising your numbers and that's it. There is a dynamic change between colonization and done; and no planetary invasion and planetary invasion. But that's pretty much it. As I ramped up against my opponents, it's just me trying to keep my numbers close to his which is done precisely the same way every turn. I'm not adjusting to counter new strategies, but rather the same strategy played over 6 hours.

In other words, this game needs phases. Uniformity of turns is killing it for me. Why would I want to be doing the same thing on turn 100 that I'm doing on turn 1000?


Sorry this is a load of bull. The most charitable thing I can say about your statement is that GalCiv gives you enough rope to hang yourself from. Starcraft and the other games you mentioned all have strict control over size and density. GalCiv lets you tweak the starting conditions.

I have to adapt to my opponents depending on what they're doing. Sometimes they're building influence starbases and slowly taking over. Sometimes one is king on beam weapons and another on mass drivers. Who do you attack? Should you attack?

Should you be sending money and weapons to prop up the minor races? Or should you invade them? Should you be going for the tech resources or build up your own local starbase network?

Should I be building up a defense to a particular weapon?

Maybe you should turn up the game difficulty a little bit.
Reply #59 Top
I felt nothing at all the whole time. Which is sad because I think this game has good mechanics.



This is a single player game, so don't tell me the campaign isn't supposed to be a big part of the experience. The AI has to engage me, the story has to engage me, the universe has to engage me. They have to, because no humans are there to do it for them.


How much did you enjoy MOO's campaign? Or Civ IV's campaign? Oh wait, they didn't have one. So you're condemning the game for attempting to do something that others don't have? The campaign is just a way to guide players through a group of scenarios.

How is any other game any different in this regards? How realistic is it for Julias Caesar in Civ IV to say "You are the wind beneath my wings?" or other pop culture things? How realistic is to to have Saladin demand you switch to Judaisim? Where's the campaign mode that has real historic realism?

Man this whole thread just reads like a bunch of people comparing this game so some mystical perfect game that doesn't exist and can't exist in our reality.
Reply #60 Top
Should I insert random fanboi rant here or wait to the end of the comment?

Your post was long and boring, it lacked soul. I don't know what you want from the game. A backstory? OK Humans invented hyperdrive, end of story. You know what game had this "soul" you describe? I remeber reading about 20 pages of backstory to Moo3 before it came out. Guess what good that did to the game? You can't ahve a real backstory to this game mostly because YOU MAKE THE STORY. Maybe soemthing more about the precursors. But I thoguht that campaing gave you a bit more backstory.

Either way yes I love the game,a nd yes I play it away from the computer. Mostly so when I load up my save I know what to do and I'm not lost rediscovering everythign again.
Reply #61 Top
GalCiv2 seems mostly about slowing raising your numbers and that's it. There is a dynamic change between colonization and done; and no planetary invasion and planetary invasion. But that's pretty much it. As I ramped up against my opponents, it's just me trying to keep my numbers close to his which is done precisely the same way every turn. I'm not adjusting to counter new strategies, but rather the same strategy played over 6 hours.


I don't think GC2 is as bad at this as you make it sound in this regard. The problem stems partially from what you suggest, but also from the simplicity of counter-moves. If someone goes for lasers, get shields (a choice you don't even have to make until you see what they've got). If someone builds some influence starbases near you, either build your own or go to war.

Someone who builds aircraft in Alpha Centauri can be countered by either building defenses tailored to them or building intercepter fighters to shoot them down. Large-scale ground invasions can be stopped by using aircraft to intercept the forces, building defensive buildings and bunkering in, or by defending choke points.
Reply #62 Top
[The point is the repetitive grind, the fact that you can just 'lock in' to the same researching/building strat game after game after game. Nothing changes. I didn't say, and don't now, that it makes it a bad game. I say it limits it to the same type of gameplay as an RTS, only slower: memorize the best order of doing things, then go kick the crap out of the enemy. It is about rote learning of what the best tactic is, then repeatedly implementing it. This is not strategy. Strategy requires you to have to adjust to conditions that are different than what you've faced in the last dozen games you played. ]

Is that so? So I guess all those Avalon Hill and SPI games weren't "strategy simulations"?? I guess you never played "Stalingrad" or "Gettysburg" or "Waterloo", strategy is not "just" based or required to adjust to conditions that are different every single game only. Strategy is figuring out what it takes to win the game at hand. And have you played a "dozen" games all the way through? I highly doubt it, unless all you ever play on is tiny or small maps. Have you played every variation of the game on every difficulty? I highly doubt that as well, since there's 1000's of them. So, you cannot sit there and say "every game is the same template". I certainly don't build the same template every game, guess what? I adjust to the conditions that are different every game. I might not get a good placement and only get a handful of planets, or I might find myself in a war on two fronts very early in the game, my template has to change based on what conditions I meet and they haven't been the same in the 4 games I've played.

There is a "linear structured build sequence" here and that's in just about ANY game with techs, I don't know of any where you can jump to the nuclear bomb the first turn or any future tech without having to have known many of the basic techs to it. That's just part of these types of strategy games. You do get choices of the linear paths you take and you do not have to follow each path the same in every game to win. Plus as stated before the conditions of the game, the starting locations and the random events even can and will change your building proceedure. Even if it is the same techs every game.

I will agree there are "template(s)" key there is the S in every game. There is no one perfect template though that will win every game 100% of the time. Now in RTS games there's a big difference because there's only a few templates that become overpowering and those you will see most often. The firstest with the mostest usually wins. I hate that "strategy". Being the firstest with the mostest in Galciv II doesn't mean you will win, espcially when you come face to face with a web of Military Starbases supporting the defense. And yes the AI does build military starbases in the larger maps and longer games I've encountered these myself and was surprisingly pleased.

I also stick to my point that no game should be "compared" to any other game. That's the problem with citizen reviews, a professional reviewer will review the game based on it's "own merits" not the merits of another game. What makes GalCiv II stand out is that it IS it's OWN game and not a clone of MOO II or any other 4x space strategy game. Although it has "elements" I've SEEN before, it doesn't make it a clone. Once again I just state, some people just want what "THEY" want in a game and if it doesn't have all the elements, they think they have some sort of god given right to have the "developers" change it for THEM. I still say "go make your own game" and you've said that you are, that's great. I'll look forward to seeing it and be sure and let us know when you do so we can come tell you what "needs to be changed" lol

Reply #63 Top
. Once again I just state, some people just want what "THEY" want in a game and if it doesn't have all the elements, they think they have some sort of god given right to have the "developers" change it for THEM.


Everybody wants what they want in a game. That's why we have more than one game.

What makes GalCiv II stand out is that it IS it's OWN game and not a clone of MOO II or any other 4x space strategy game.


You're looking at it from too high a level. Most of the commentary on this thread isn't about making it a MOO-clone. It's about rectifying what some consider significant design flaws, using other games as examples of games that don't exhibit these design flaws.

There's a difference between not liking a game and the game having flaws. Halo 2, for example, is a game that I will never play. I'm not interested in that kind of game experience. However, I know that the game itself is well made.

The suggestions here are not trying to make the game into something its not (well, some of them aren't). What is being discussed are problems with the game that make it fairly objectively less interesting overall.

I still say "go make your own game"


This kind of attitude towards criticism is tiresome.

If someone doesn't like a movie because it has something in it that they find to be boring or whatever, that's a valid opinion. Now , maybe you can argue from an objective standpoint that the thing in question is not boring in general, that it happens to be something that they personally dislike. However, the "go make your own movie" argument is not an argument. It's just silly.

If somebody comes along who doesn't like turn based games period and says, "GC2 is weak. It should be realtime," what they're saying is that they do not like turn based gaming. To them, the game as is is a waste of money. Their opinion is noted and logged (and dismissed, because it is purely personal preference), but that doesn't mean that they should just go make their own game or something.
Reply #64 Top
I think it would be really cool if everyone could see their way clear to the fact that I am not trying to cut down Stardock, and quit acting like I am. They have great customer support and clearly take pride in their work and want to produce a high-quality product. In having that commitment they distinguish themselves greatly from 95% of the developers out there, ESPESCIALLY those who make strategy games. I wonder how many times I'll have to repeat this to get people to stop acting like I'm saying the game sucks. My guess is infinite won't be enough.

Much of this thread reads like a bunch of Civ fanboys who've only got the most basic understanding of GalCiv II. We'll see which game has people's imagination in 6 months.


I'm not sure who this was directed at, but I find it amusing since I've got as many posts in this thread as anyone and you can count the number of times I've mentioned Civ or CivIV or Sid Meier or Firaxis on a closed fist. GalCivII eats CivIV for lunch -- I'll never play CivIV again but will play an occasional game of GalCivII. You'd probably be better off discussing what I actually said than what you'd like to imagine I've said.

So I guess all those Avalon Hill and SPI games weren't "strategy simulations"?? I guess you never played "Stalingrad" or "Gettysburg" or "Waterloo"


Gah. Those are wargames. GalCivII and other 4x games are strategy games, not wargames. There's a big difference. Incidentally I enjoy both types, but I can tell the difference between the two, and there are major differences.

have you played a "dozen" games all the way through? I highly doubt it, unless all you ever play on is tiny or small maps. Have you played every variation of the game on every difficulty? I highly doubt that as well, since there's 1000's of them. So, you cannot sit there and say "every game is the same template". I certainly don't build the same template every game, guess what? I adjust to the conditions that are different every game. I might not get a good placement and only get a handful of planets, or I might find myself in a war on two fronts very early in the game, my template has to change based on what conditions I meet and they haven't been the same in the 4 games I've played.


Yes you are right, I have not played every possible combination. However I don't have to meet every person that ever lived to intelligently comment on humanity, or have played every possible board position in chess to comment on that game, or watched every movie ever made to comment on movies. It is irrelevant.

As far as adjusting to conditions, I never have to research tech in a different order, and I never want to build different buildings. I might put slightly different stuff on my ships, and I might go military sooner, but really there isn't much that changes at all. Could I win by a different method? Probably I could. But I never have to. I can play with any race on any size galaxy and win with the same basic strategy. I think that's boring and lacking. Others don't, and I'm glad they've found a game to enjoy.

There is a "linear structured build sequence" here and that's in just about ANY game with techs, I don't know of any where you can jump to the nuclear bomb the first turn or any future tech without having to have known many of the basic techs to it. That's just part of these types of strategy games.


Wrong again. Obviously I'm not expecting to go from A directly to Z in a tech field, but the fact that the options available to you NEVER change makes it far too predictable. You can research every tech every time as every race. That's what I object to, particularly because it is completely unnecessary.

I also stick to my point that no game should be "compared" to any other game. That's the problem with citizen reviews, a professional reviewer will review the game based on it's "own merits" not the merits of another game


List for me one of these vaunted 'professional' reviewers. The state of game reviewing is positively horrendous. I understand why Stardock and other commercial developers care about them, as many are foolish enough to buy into what they say. But bias, conflicts of interest, and outright stupidity are so rampant in the reviewing pool that it is beyond me why any conscientious gamer could care less what they say. Their track record as a whole and in almost every particular is abhorrent.

some people just want what "THEY" want in a game and if it doesn't have all the elements, they think they have some sort of god given right to have the "developers" change it for THEM. I still say "go make your own game" and you've said that you are, that's great. I'll look forward to seeing it and be sure and let us know when you do so we can come tell you what "needs to be changed" lol

Show me one place where I or anyone else has said or even implied they have a right for the game to be changed in this thread. I sure can't find it. Try discussing the game reasonably instead of hysterically tossing around ludicrous smoke-blowing accusations.

As for my project, if and when I am fortunate enough to finish it, I'll try to conduct myself with the grace and class that Stardock has, allowing us to have this discussion without trying to shut it down or acting defensively. They are top-notch people from everything I can see. And in that eventuality, should it ever occur, I'll view criticism the same way they obviously do: an opportunity to improve the product.