Orion Adrian Orion Adrian

Why this game bores me silly, yet I can't stop playing.

Why this game bores me silly, yet I can't stop playing.

Or why compulsory behavior isn't always fun.

I've developed a problem with this game since I bought it; I can't stop playing it. The problem is I always find myself thinking around hour 5, "What am I still playing this game for? I've been bored silly for hours now"

While this game, like may 4X games, creates a sense of "one more turn", but I feel it lacking in that I'm not having any fun taking those extra turns. I feel like a crack addict who has gotten to the point where the game just returns me to normalcy, which isn't a very good situation to be in.

The source of the problem -- i.e. the lack of fun factor -- is caused by multiple problems which I detail below. If you think I'm in fact on crack, you can just abort now.

1) Improvements are linear and predictable. Each additional technology doesn't really get you much and what it gets you is just like 45 other technologies in the tech tree. Since technology doesn't change how you play as the game progresses, once all the planets are colonized, each turn pretty much feels like every other.

"Oh look, Lasers V; better redesign all my ships; hmm, didn't really change anything"

2) Too much abstraction. The ultimate abstraction for a game using current UI concepts is a button called "I Win" with no other features other than perhaps a titlebar. This is a reason why I state that usability principles should be applied carefully to games -- but that's for a later discussion. Unfortunately, too much abstraction leads to too little interaction and decision making on the part of the player. If the player ever gets to the point that he or she can simply play in their head, then the game is over.

"They'll take this world, I'll take it back, steal their technology and sell it to my allies/team. That'll pretty much be it for the next two to three hundred turns."

3) No soul. This often happens to "engine" games. Total Annahilation, Dungeon Siege and this game all fall into the category of excellent engine writers, no game designers. Mind you I've played all of these games extensively and bragged about their extensibility and mod support, but in the end they just don't that "Je ne sais quoi" -- they have no soul. Part of creating a soul for a game is making twofold. One making a connection between the player and the characters they are controlling. This is done through characters in the story. Enjoyable multiplayer experiences often expand from enjoyable single player experiences. Starcraft, one of the most famous sci-fi games, had an excellent story that connected the player to the game. There are additional touches like unique music (e.g. Civ IV's Baba Yetu), a good and detailed mythology (e.g. the Warcraft franchise), and communication between things commanded and the player (e.g. "Yub Yub", "Yes, my liege").

"Hmm, I just lost 60 ships. Better build 60 more."

4) Too much symmetry. This is really a combination of 1 and 3, but it bears elaborating. Chess is the example for this. Knights aren't countered with other knights; rooks with other rooks; kings with other kings. The beauty of chess and the reason I feel it's survived this long and has so many devotees is that it lacks symmetry. King side plays differently than queen side. This leads to an inability to abstract and aids in a personal connection with styles of play.

Currently there isn't any reason to pick lasers over mass drivers of missiles since they play exactly the same way. That was a lost opportunity. So I can just choose one at random at the beginning of the game and be done with it and the only reason to pick a different one is because you've adjusted to my first one; though you'll adjust to the second one just as easily.

Good games are incredibly hard to balance and that's why you see Blizzard and other very successful game manufacturers rebalancing constantly. But it's a critical need. No two units in Starcraft are the same and the races play very differently. This has constantly been complimented by the people who play the game.

Orion Adrian
40,444 views 64 replies
Reply #26 Top
Rate the game on what it is...not what its promoted and promised to be. If you were to rate something on hype...then Duke Nukem Forever is the bestest gaming experience evar!

"Saying the game has no soul is pretty harsh, but I've just completed my second technology victory and man is that soulless. I didn't think anything could be worse than the boring Civ spacerace, but I am wrong. I mean researching a few techs in a perfectly straight line with no tech requirements and all I get is 1 sentence (2 or 3 sentences if I am lucky) descriptions of the tech is just bad."

Exactly! This is a striking problem with the game. I end up winning by complete accident and boredom, mostly through influence before I can even research up the tech tree. The first few runs of the game are interesting, figuring out the tech tree and designing some ships. But then it all reaches an 'Hrmmm...' moment where the player realizes that the ship designer is all fluff and it all comes down to one attack vs defense, over and over again.

There isn't much to play for battle wise...and its pointless moving up the tech tree for 'Now your farts don't stink'. I'd play for the strategy of defeating a rival Empire, but by the mid-game the victor has already been decided in several key battles in the early game that I always win due to a tech advantedge.

Yes I could play for 'Metaverse score' but that would be like going for Gold in the Special Olympics as a non-disabled person.
Reply #27 Top
Rate the game on what it is...not what its promoted and promised to be. If you were to rate something on hype...then Duke Nukem Forever is the bestest gaming experience evar!


Actually I only read a single review and looked at the screenshots. That plus a deep desire for a better Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain. Almost all of my evaluations comes from simply playing the game.

"Saying the game has no soul is pretty harsh, but I've just completed my second technology victory and man is that soulless. I didn't think anything could be worse than the boring Civ spacerace, but I am wrong. I mean researching a few techs in a perfectly straight line with no tech requirements and all I get is 1 sentence (2 or 3 sentences if I am lucky) descriptions of the tech is just bad."


Yes. Though I have the same feeling about super projects and wonders in this game. They just don't get enough attention. I don't know to describe it exactly, but I just didn't get the sense of satisfaction I did from Civ IV. Perhaps it's those full-motion videos or Leonard Nemoy, but again that goes to overall finish.
Reply #28 Top
I'm going to chime in here as un-defensively as possible, but forgive me if by bias creeps in occasionally
 
I know that GC1 got some criticism from some players (as well as some reviewers) for being 'soul-less'. In many of the GalCiv2 reviews I've read, the reviewer has said something like '...GalCiv2 has that extra SOMETHING that makes a good game into something more.', so I figured we had fixed the 'soul' problem... but perhaps the issue is a bit harder to pin down than expected.
 
As a game developer, you have to make alot of choices (game design, scheduling, artistic, ect) that all vary in magnitude (teeny tiny choices to HUGE, GAME ALTERING choices). In every choice made, you run the risk of disappointing a % of players, so you have to pick wisely. Success results when you hit that target demographic, meet gamers expectations and make the highest percentage of players happy. Then, if you've really done it right, a % of THOSE players will connect with the game on another level entirely.
 
I believe that is the connection where the game feels like it has a 'soul'. It cannot come from the game alone, but it takes a bit of the player as well.
 
While I can't list the personality breakdowns that will/will not connect with GC2, let's look at the choices made to simply make the game 'better' than GC1...
 
One choice we made is to simplify the tech-tree. GC1's tech tree was a spagetti-string mess of pre-reqs and crazy offshoots and difficult navigation. Some people liked the complexity, but most people were overwhelmed and wanted change. In GC2 we simlified the tree. Most players that I've seen have liked the change, but there are now players that find it boring. Are we happy with the change, dispite some negative feelings by various gamers? Yes. When we start work on GC3 (not for a while, mind you, but eventually) will we revisit the tree and try to please even more players? Absolutely.
 
Another choice made was the abstraction of various game mechanics. Unfortunatly this is a side effect of having 9 playable races. You'll find that any strategy game that dosent take this route will never have more than 4 playable races. While I agree that it'd be AWESOME to see each race have their own special abilities, balancing a 9x9 matrix of possible game-play styles would be near-impossible. Would we have been lambasted if we cut the number of races from GC1 from 7 to 4? Hell yes. Did we try and give races their own personality through customization, flavor text, and AI play-style routines? Your better beleive it. Is there room for improvement? Until 100% of the players are 100% satisfied: Always.
 
One thing I will get defensive on is the music. Our sound-guy did a great job, and went well beyond our expectations for what we needed. We ordered 35 minutes of music...he comes back with well over an hour of tunes for cutscenes, in-game sequences, and race conversations. That music is all driven to be event specific, changing based on your status and the status of the galaxy. If you're not a fan of the songs, fine...that's subjective. But, as for improving on GC1 and bringing more 'soul' to the game, I think it's irrefutable (ok, leaving defensive mode) 
 
The game is designed to put the player in the roll of a galactic empire, where your quick and easy control over everything a necessity, thus putting gameplay ahead of anything that could be considered 'polish'. While I agree Heroes would play an interesting roll in unit gameplay, it would be a polish item. As for adding 'soul' to the game, and giving the units a bit more character, it should be noted that the main characters of the game are NOT the ships...the other characters are the various Galactic Leaders, who have HUNDREDS OF PAGES of text to tell you exactly how they feel about you and your empire. Could these all have been recorded as MP3's? Probably. Could we have added 'heros', 'spys', ect to the game to add even more character to the resulting Space Opera? Defiantly. Could we have made more elaborate cutscenes to spice up the campaign and various sandbox events? Certainly.
 
Would choosing these features limit the manpower put towards other, more important game features (possibly rendering the game unplayable)? Without a doubt.
 
In the end, I think the whole 'soul' issue is moot. Some players are going to emotionally connect to a more abstracted style so they can really infuse their own mythos into their various games (this is where 4x games get teased for being 'interactive spreadsheets'). Others are going to connect to a simplified game with more polish and flavor to their game (Leonard Nemoy voiceovers comes to mind). Other players still are going to connect to something completely different, which we'll hear about after GC3
 
Will we be able to emotionally connect with 100% of the player 100% of the time? Never. Do we hope players can enjoy the game, even if they don't connect emotionally with it? Absolutely. And as long as players continue to support our work, will we continue to improve our game designs, hopefully engaging more players and exposing the 'soul' of the game to everyone possible?
 
You better believe it.
Reply #29 Top
I don't see the tech tree being linear at all. Each game I find myself going down a different path. The only improvement I'd like to see for the tech tree is choices like Alpha Centauri gave where you pick from a group of 4 tech up possibilities and you get random pot luck at what you discover. That to me is proper teching up "discoveries" not ok I'm going to tech up weapons and weapons only without deviation. But, AC gave you that OPTION and choice if you wanted to pick precisely or take a random chance on what you got.

As far as the weapons and defenses, well certainly a tiny class ship doesn't have many options and be powerful. But, there is a difference when defenses are in place. In fact my L2M2's end up doing more damage over time than my M-L4's, mainly because I don't encounter too many ships with dual defenses. My M-L4's come up against a shield based defense and my L2M2's do more damage to them because they have no defense against missles. I watch the combat screen and my L4's are rolling up 1's and my L2m2"s are rolling 3's and 4's.

Can't wait till they make a multiplayer game outta this so we can show some that there's more to this game than rock paper scissors. Combined force attacks...anyone remember that philosophy from other wars? Even my G2L1M1's will roll up some damage vs a ship that is specifically designed for one offense. I see a steady roll of 3's out of this ship constantly, while once again my L4 gets those lovely 1's. Not to say it doesn't get other numbers, but, the spread is so far apart that it doesn't roll 5's everytime thas for sure. A mixture of weapons for me is the best makeup of ships.

And some people just expect too much out of a game. I find this game challenging and fun. When I don't I'll put it down for something else. The AI is splendid for the most part, really enjoy how it counters my builds, though it does need a few fixes in the speed department I think. It runs around with a lot of 2 speed fleets and these are easily taken with 4 speed or 5 speed fleets with that ability of first strike. Either have them build different speed fleets or put some form of everyone gets to shoot at least one shot, it's too easy to just outright kill a ship alone with all attackers strike first.

And obviously the professional reviewers don't agree with the OP either. This game is getting a lot of high acclaim like it deserves. It's one of those games that is easy to get into but takes awhile to master. Very good job Stardock, now just improve upon those principles with your patches and updates.
Reply #30 Top
I don't think anyone here has said it's a bad game. I think it deserves high reviews, because it is a well designed game. But I'd still have to say there's nothing to emotionally attach to in it.
Reply #31 Top
I think the most basic problem with the game is, as has been said, that the only thing that ever changes during the course of a game session is numbers. There are no unique abilities, no strategy-altering breakthroughs, no asymmetry at all.

If we look only at race and spaceship abilities and bonuses (the two most individually important parts of a space 4x game IMHO) and compare them to MoO2, which has long been considered the best game in the genre, what do we see?

MoO2 had bonuses such as lithovore, subterranean, cybernetic, creative, telepathic and tolerant which changed more than just numbers; a different set of bonuses demanded a completely different strategy. Many of those bonuses (such as subterranean and cybernetic) would have worked very well in GalCiv2, but all we have are numerical adjustments. A 25% bonus to miniaturization is nice, but it's certainly not original, nor does it affect my strategy significantly.

Same thing with ship equipment. MoO2 had several types of weaponry that were fundamentally different - direct fire, missiles/torpedoes, interceptors and assault shuttles didn't just differ in statistics, they differed in basic functionality. Assault shuttles didn't have anything at all in common with plasma web, and it affected battle tactics a lot. In addition, there were dozens of special equipment and bonuses - everything from reflection fields and time warp facilitators to auto repair devices and stasis fields. Much of this would also work very well in GalCiv2, even without tactical battles, but all we have is a simple rock-paper-scissors situation where the only real difference between Harpoon and Phasors is the size and damage.

These shortcomings ARE fixable in a patch or possibly even mod. I'd be surprized if they are ever fixed since the required changes are rather fundamental, but It'd make me a happy camper, for one.
Reply #32 Top
No offense to BoogieBac or any other Stardock designer - the gameplay is stellar.

However, I have to agree with Orion Adrian's points - the game is more LOL than connection. Music isn't especially my taste, but that's a matter of opinion. The tech tree at the beginning was difficult enough, but within the first few games, it does feel very linear - I just have to simply improving all the baseline stats and abilities, with little regard to combinations or symbioticness. The random events are my favorite part with entertaining dialogue and unpredictability, but otherwise the game has become overwrought to me.

I'm not sure anyone has anything kind to say about the campaigns either, which is a pity because the design team worked hard on that. It just doesn't have much allure - dull story and campaigns.

On the otherhand, the AI is devious and prevents relaxation, ship design is great and is expected to be easier to improve and upgrade, and the special buildings and starbases help me overlook the few problems that OA had outlined before.
Reply #33 Top
I like to give my 2 cent. I am writing this out as think it, so it might get a little messy.

Sometimes, what I find on these forums are that they are way too much critism. Maybe too much expectations. I believe that the developers of GalCiv2 have made decisions that they think are for the best, and they truly do try to please a lot of players. They are even actively trying to improve the game by their patches and updates.

Now, it is true that there are things that *I* think could be improved or even changed altogether. But this isn't my game, and if I thought any different, I would have made my own.

There are many things on that list that are preferential to differing people.

- Complexity isn't always great. Something complicated could sastify one player, but also alienate others. The reverse is also true. A compromise has to be made, and a balance acquired - which means not everyone will be please.

- Soul? No Soul? Some people look for too much. Regardless whether GalCiv2 has soul or not, I honestly don't believe something has to have soul to be fun! Again this could be a preference thing but soul isn't everything for everyone. One person's soul is most likely someone else's no soul.

- Music is also preferential. You love it, or you don't. Most people thing Final Fantasy 7 has the best musical score in the entire game history - some people don't. Maybe this isn't the feel that most people expect, but what the developer was probably trying to convey.

I love GalCiv2 for what it is, and although there are many things I probably would like to change - I learn to love it's (what I consider) flaws too. This is GalCiv2 and if you don't like it go find something else. To quote 'One person heaven is another person's hell'.

I would also like to add that I would love that all the bugs be fixed as a pirority over everything else.

Edit: Why are you playing if you're not having fun!!! That makes no sense to me. I don't get it, cause once I get bored, I STOP doing it. I don't... I don't... bah!
Reply #34 Top
The "soul" that is missing amounts to unique racial abilities and the opportunity have game changing techs that the other players lack. "Soul" in these games comes from unique functions. Since all races have identical abilities (some are better at this or that ability) as opposed to exclusive abilities, then all the backstory and flavor text and differentiated AI subroutines in the world will not create "soul" for these races.

OTOH I understand that the reason for the generic nature of the races was that first priority in developing GC2 was given to creating smart AI that could play without cheating, and for ensuring proper game balance so the AI could be tested and improved. I furthermore think that to have accomplished this to the extent that Stardock has is a staggering, almost unprecedented achievement.

In the future, I would like to see Stardock first optimize the AI and treak and balance the current game as much as possible, and then concentrate on introducing ways to make the racial abilities more unique, rebalancing the AI tactics and strategies as necessary. I would also like to see modifications to the tech tree that provided a reward for specializing in certain tech areas that gave unique abilities as suggested earlier, and then AI rebalancing based on that.

I understand this is all a very big job, and I wish you all the financial success required to marshal the resources to accomplish it!
Reply #35 Top
I totally agree with the idea that everything is cookie-cutter, and this is a game that'll I'll play a little but not much because of it. Stardock succeeded in creating a game that has good AI(clearly their main objective), but look at what got thrown off the bus in the process: realism(I don’t need it in every area but when it doesn’t exist in virtually ANY area it is distracting), ‘soul’, tactical combat, etc. To use the chess example any chessplayer knows that a game is about competing imbalances, which is what great strategy games should strive for. Starcraft excelled at this which is why, goodness knows how many years later, it still has a devoted community. Rome: Total War is still a big success as well. Ditto for the MOO franchise. Etc. There are no competing imbalances in GalCivII. There are simply better or worse ways of exploting the same tools everyone else has. Ways of creating imbalances are myriad. Some ways this could have been done:

-- Racial tech
-- % chance of being able to research a tech, instead of being able always research every tech every game
-- Racial abilities that are significant, right now its WAY to bland and balanced
-- Allow some local control of the economy instead of the ‘all-or-nothing’ empire-level sliders.
-- etc.


Every planet is either colonizable to every race or to no-one. Every hull, weapon system, sensor technology, government, etc. is available to every race every game without exception. No race is necessarily better at building up new planets, or has better gunners on their ships, or is more efficient, or has better leadership/commanders, or … or … or … ad nauseum. The primary difference between races is the way the act in diplomacy and their portraits/icons on the screen.

None of this is really a criticism of Stardock per se … they are giving what the strategy public wants. It’s a TBS for the RTS index-finger-workout crowd. It’s not the kind of game I or most other ‘strategy enthusiasts’ I know enjoy.

And I must take great umbrage with this:

“Another choice made was the abstraction of various game mechanics. Unfortunately this is a side effect of having 9 playable races. You’ll find that any strategy game that doesn’t take this route will never have more than 4 playable races.”

STOP THE TAPE! Go read that last sentence again. And again. And again. Horsecrap I say(respectfully), referring all interested parties to, among others, the last two titles of the Master of Orion series. The salient point here is all the blather going on about maximizing the single-player experience. The above quote is the kind of thing I’d expect to hear from someone developing RoN or some other MP-dependant RTS title. There’s a reason I don’t buy those games. But in a game where the SP is supposed to be paramount, with multiple difficulty levels and AIs, how can it be said only a few races could be playable?

Continuing …

“Did we try and give races their own personality through customization, flavor text, and AI play-style routines? Your better believe it.”

Sigh. Let’s look at these one at a time.

Customization – the best point, but the things that are important to customize don’t appear to be available to customize. For example, giving a race a bonus that no other race can have. Making certain tech only available to certain races. Making some races colonize planets others can’t, or better usability of a planet, or other abilities. In the current state of the game, the things you can customize either affect the balance of power marginally or not at all. I can change stuff, but it changes it for EVERYONE. I can’t make Terrans better at X and worse at Y, but vice-versa for Yor, or whatever(with the exception of the race editing features which 1) only affect base abilities not tech/progression, and 2) are limited to the least interesting, most marginal aspects).

Flavor Text – Adds to soul, and a good touch. Does basically nothing for core gameplay, however.

AI play-style routines – This would mean something if the game wasn’t so bland. Yes they play differently but they are all playing in the same toolbox. Different AIs would be HIGHLY significant if I could tell the difference between a warrior race and a research race. Since the game wasn’t designed that way though, the effect of different AIs is substantially muted.

For anyone who thinks I’m saying ‘Nuke Stardock’ or that I’m a troll – not the case. I respect the product they’ve put forward, and the obvious effort that went into it. But as a strategy game, I find it lacking considerably. Before you bring up the reviews – save it. The reviewing industry is positively horrid, and they are biased in the direction of the average customer – meaning that they automatically prefer shallow, action-oriented titles, pretty crap will always get better reviews that ugly fun, etc.

cutter, and this is a game that'll I'll play a little but not much because of it. Stardock succeeded in creating
Reply #36 Top
OK, my first post on this was about a billion paragraphs, and it got swallowed, so the Space Gods are telling me to try to simplify it.

This is a very interesting thread to me.

GalCiv2 is a highly abstracted game system. This allows for much more effective AI, and also promotes replayability (e.g., a Merchant/Diplomat plays very different from an Expansionist/Industrialist plays very different from a Militarist).

However, it also does mean that more of the "color" in the game is left up to the imaginations of the players. I enjoy embellishing my own games, but I find some of the most personally engaging games help to stimulate that imagination better than others (Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri is a good example of such a setting).

While I like the "3 choices" scenarios that GalCiv offers, I've often felt like the designers perhaps missed out on an opportunity to develop some plot and interesting side-stories here. If you had various "story threads" that would creep into a campaign (for the human player only), featuring maybe one set of 3 choices ever 5 to 20 turns, with perhaps 4-6 total choices in a given "thread", it might be interesting.

You'd need to set it up so each choice along the thread had practical implications, as well as "story branching" implications. And I'd encourage you to script the stories so every path resulted in some good and some bad results, rather than just having one "optimal" or "jackpot" path. It would definitely take some additional work, but I don't think it would be hard to create some scripting tools that would make these storylines VERY moddable, and w/the wealth of player creativity out there, it could really catch fire!

A few sample storylines:

1) Those primitive aliens you so tactfully cached on specialized reservations turn out to be not quite so primitive after all (think of the Organians, if you're a Star Trek fan...);
2) A highly desirable planet that you've colonized turns out to have a Gaian consciousness, whose priorities don't always agree with yours...
3) A crime syndicate/pirate ring starts spreading into various corners of your civilization;
4) A religious zealot begins to grow very popular on your home planet, and he comes to you with an offer...
5) A privately financed adventurer (think GalCiv Christopher Columbus) comes to you with tales of a Precursor ruin planet hidden in a nebula not too far from your home world...
6) A diplomat from a rival civilization approaches you with an offer to defect...
7) One of your scientists exploring some nearby Precursor ruins comes to you wtih an intriguing artifact and a request for additional guidance & assistance...
8) Labor leaders in your civilization approach you with some problems, but also with a solution...

These are just the tip of the iceberg. I'd heard in interviews that this type of plot development would happen in GalCiv1, but I never saw it in the 6-9 months of games that I played enthusiastically (maybe I was looking in the wrong place?). Putting some "real world" decisions out there, with real downstream implications for gameplay besides just a numerical tweak, might be very intriguing.

Heck, if anybody at StarDock is interested, I'd be happy to script a couple sample stories and decision trees (along with proposed bonuses)! Don't know how complicated this would be from a programming standpoint--certainly not easy, but I can't imagine it'd be back-breaking either, especially if you could draw on others to generate the content and storylines...
Reply #37 Top
Sometimes I think this game bores me silly, too, but really it's just computer games in general that bore me. Then why do I play them? Because I have no life.
Reply #38 Top
[ None of this is really a criticism of Stardock per se … they are giving what the strategy public wants. It’s a TBS for the RTS index-finger-workout crowd. It’s not the kind of game I or most other ‘strategy enthusiasts’ I know enjoy. ]

You must come from a very small and select group then, because I've been playing turn based strategy games AND chess for 35+ years and this is definitely a game THIS "strategy enthusiasts" enjoys!!! Mainly because I don't expect this game to be some clone of any other game. I'm glad it is "unique of itself". And while it might be a game of choice for the rts index-finger workout crowd (which is a good thing, brings more gamers into the TBS line of games and perhaps means more TBS line of games in the future) it certainly is a game for the pure TBS gamer at heart as well. Even if it doesn't have the complexities that I'm pretty sure every complainer is complaining about, it doesn't really need them. It's complicated enough I can see from the posts after posts of people having trouble with the economy and technology and getting or staying in 1st place. And with 12-13 difficulty levels and plenty of optional settings, there's no way anyone couldn't find an optimal setting for challenge.

I learn to accept the game that is in front of me. As long as it doesn't have game breaking bugs, CTD's things of that nature, I don't try to change it or make it into the game I think it should be. If I was to do that I'd make my own game or pay someone to make it for me. Are you willing to do that? NO??!! Didn't think so.

Of course there are some things I surely can see I'd like to see in the game or not in the game, but, I'm not calling the game souless or not up to par "comparing" to other games. It's it's own game in it's own right. It doesn't have to meet the expectations of other games. And that is your flaw in your comparisons or anyone elses comparisons. It doesn't require comparison, it's not trying to be another game.

As a consumer you have a few choices, play the game until you find the optimum value setting out of it, toss it aside and never play it again and of cource just don't buy anymore games from this company. 100% of the people are never going to be satisfied. Complaining or whinning on a forum doesn't do much good at all. Mostly it just brings flames back in your face. Making valid suggestions is one thing, coming to the fan forum just to say the game has no soul or isn't up to par with another game or games has no value and gives you less credibility. And you just end up noticed as a troll if you continue to do it. Because you aren't contributing, you're just trying to tear down. And of course any of those that agree with you on the forum are just little pied piper following trollites.

Reply #39 Top
Firstly, for the record I like this game - when the pros and cons are weighed I think it comes down somewhere between good and excelllent (although I do find the races a bit flat and samey).

The main point I want to make though is directed at those who criticise attempts to compare Galciv2 with other games (typically Moo2) under the belief that such criticism arises from a desire to somehow mould Galciv2 into their own version of what Moo3 should have been. On the contrary, comparisons with other games are extremely useful, as nothing can be judged in isolation. If Galciv2 had been released 20 years ago no-one would claim it lacked soul, because the standard of the day was lower. Similarly, in the future no doubt any game without interactive smell-o-vision will be dismissed as inauthethic. Galciv2 does not exist in a vacuum where other games past and present have no influence.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that saying one dislikes x about Galciv2, and then drawing on another game to illustrate the point is an entirely valid method of argument. What other well of experience can be drawn from apart from other games if one is trying to be constructive in criticism, rather than simply trashing and offering no alternative?
Reply #40 Top
that is your flaw in your comparisons or anyone elses comparisons. It doesn't require comparison, it's not trying to be another game.


Good point. Sad that you directed it at me though, since I never said GalCivII should be a clone of any of the games I briefly mentioned. I said it should offer distinctive strategic choices and argued why it doesn't. There's a big difference.

I learn to accept the game that is in front of me. As long as it doesn't have game breaking bugs, CTD's things of that nature, I don't try to change it or make it into the game I think it should be. If I was to do that I'd make my own game or pay someone to make it for me. Are you willing to do that? NO??!! Didn't think so.


Wrong. I'm actually quite willing to do that, I'm an aspiring developer myself working on a project that may well, particularly if the development houses that have more resources than I continue to fail to incorporate them, result in the type of gameplay I'm more interested in.

Complaining or whinning on a forum doesn't do much good at all. Mostly it just brings flames back in your face. Making valid suggestions is one thing, coming to the fan forum just to say the game has no soul or isn't up to par with another game or games has no value and gives you less credibility.


I did make valid suggestions. Perhaps you should go read my post again before making blatantly false accusations/characterizations of what I wrote. My suggestions were clear and on the point of giving interesting strategic decisions, giving differences to each side as opposed to the current system where the same strategy is more or less equally effective with any race, and one game's the same as the next.

Even if it doesn't have the complexities that I'm pretty sure every complainer is complaining about, it doesn't really need them. It's complicated enough I can see from the posts after posts of people having trouble with the economy and technology and getting or staying in 1st place. And with 12-13 difficulty levels and plenty of optional settings, there's no way anyone couldn't find an optimal setting for challenge.


The game is challenging. I could come up with lots of ideas for games that would be challenging, but still bad games. That isn't the point, GCII succeeds on that score(as I made a major point of in my first post, by the way). Complexity isn't the issue either. A game can be simple without being simplistic. I would say GCII has some complexity.

The point is the repetitive grind, the fact that you can just 'lock in' to the same researching/building strat game after game after game. Nothing changes. I didn't say, and don't now, that it makes it a bad game. I say it limits it to the same type of gameplay as an RTS, only slower: memorize the best order of doing things, then go kick the crap out of the enemy. It is about rote learning of what the best tactic is, then repeatedly implementing it. This is not strategy. Strategy requires you to have to adjust to conditions that are different than what you've faced in the last dozen games you played.





Reply #41 Top
Chess is a beautiful game because of asymetry and by about turn 7 it's a game you've never played before. It requries you to adapt and adapt quickly. Every move requires a re-evaluation of the situation you're in. And no, I'm not saying this should be just like chess, but that aspect of the game I would like to see.

Personnaly I'm trying to put in my vote on what I like and don't like. I've already bought the game and notifying the developers what it would take to get me to buy GalCiv III or GalCiv II: The Expansion Pack should be valueable information when taken into account with many other opinions.

I am not so arrogant as to think that mine is the only voice, but given that saying that I shouldn't raise my voice in concern does no one any good. The developers are all perfectly capable of taking my voice into account with all the other voices and variables (e.g. development costs).

I've outlined where I feel the game is lacking from my perspective. I would assume that was understood as I didn't say I represented anyone else. I've outlined why I feel it's lacking. I've also brought some examples as to how it could be improved.

The developers will ultimately choose what they want for their game and the market will ultimately create consequences for that action (not a threat). Again, I'm just trying to voice my opinions.
Reply #42 Top
The more I think about it, I think that GC2 isn't mising soul per se but it is missing the "5th X" What I mean by that is that GC2 is missing something in addition to the typical 4X game. For example:
SMAC-Had that pyschic fungus that is constantly a problem.
MoO2-Antarans would all of a sudden smack around the #1 or #2 platyer in the galaxy, creating panic
CIv-Just playing throughout history, building wonders, meeting famous leaders and researching new technologies drastically changes the game constantly.
And these games are pretty old, so yes if GC2 was released 20 years ago I would say the same thing.

I don't think Space Empires had anything extra either which is why I call it a good TBS but a bit soulless along with GC2.

Some of you GC2 fanboys are getting out of hand though, 12-13 difficulty levels? Umm, wrong. We can't compare GC2 to any other strategy game? Uhhh, what? More races equals a harder to code and worse game? Don't give me that B.S. Each leader has hunderds of pages of text? Ok, my finger is right next to the 'prove it' button.

The game is a great solid TBS with an awesome ship designer. Kinda reminds me of City of Heroes, the character desinger is so much fun that you love the game even though it is really just an above average MMORPG.

This kind of feedback is good to the devlopers and will overall improve the game. The comment of "if you don't like it, just quit and play something else" is ridiculous and something a 5-year old would make. Us 'complainers' LIKE the underlying game, we just want it improved so I can actually say that even without the ship designer, GC2 is one of the best TBS's out there. Right now, beating the game at the highest difficulty doing the same thing everytime on different maps and against different races, I don't think I can call it one of the best TBS games yet. All these fanboys are actually me like GC2 less, and I really enjoy playing GC2 and can't wait for the next patch.
Reply #43 Top
I think the most basic problem with the game is, as has been said, that the only thing that ever changes during the course of a game session is numbers. There are no unique abilities, no strategy-altering breakthroughs, no asymmetry at all.


And there it is. You have just summed up the major gameplay problem. I hadn't really looked at it from that perspective, but there it is in black and white.

It was mentioned earlier that Civ (and Alpha Centauri) shift gameplay pretty significantly over the course of the game. You start with land units. Later, you get sea units. Later still, you get air units. This missiles and nukes. In Civ, you get the last kinds of things pretty late, but in AC you get them at points where they're more likely to come into play much easier.

When you get a new kind of unit in AC (a new base "hull", as AC had unit designing), you were getting something that would significantly change the way you played the game. The base hull that had 2 movement points was very different from the base hull with only 1. The 1MP guy would get certain bonuses in certain situations that nobody else got. When you got boat hulls, things change; now you can attack people who aren't on your continent. You can explore and settle where you couldn't before.

You get flying units in AC, everything changes tactically. If the enemy gets them, things change from that perspective too. Now you can strike distant targets, but the enemy can adapt easily enough and build defensive units that can take out air units. And so forth.

Here's an analogy that works for Galactic Civilizations. According to the backstory, early modern civilizations in the GC universe were confined to StarGates for getting from place to place. Such things allowed for interstellar commerce, but they sucked for waging war (because your enemy could isolate themselves from you by shutting off their SGs connecting you from them). Then, a new race shows up (humans), and they invent the revolutionary hyperdrive propulsion (apparently because species that have been starfaring for 50,000 years have stopped inventing things, but those who have only been around for 50 can still do so). This not only makes interstellar exploration much eaiser, it makes interstellar war possible at all.

What if GC2 actually played through that part of the universe's history? What if the early game was characterized by the use of StarGates? That is, you can get from system to system only by gates, except for exceptionally large, slow SG constructing ships that can't mount weapons or armor. You can still trade and talk with others, but that's it. No war.

Then, one day, someone learns HyperDrive. Suddenly, they have a dramatic tactical advantage. They can trade in a way others can't. And they can attack others. Defense against HD-ships is still possible with StarGates, but the SGs could actually be vulnerable to attack.

You could even take it a step further. Long after HD (and more advanced forms of such propulsion) has come around, someone discovers Wing Commander-style Jump Drive. That is, once in a star system, a ship can instantaneously jump to a nearby star (degree of "nearness" improves with new revisions of the engine). Once again, tactics change. An enemy can deploy a fleet inside a star system and there's no way to interdict them or even detect them enroute.


Another thing, separate from this issue, is the generally derivative nature of the GC universe. I already mentioned the incredible conceit that the Humans are the only ones who can come up with Hyperdrive, even though they are clearly less advanced than guys who've been in space for 50,000 years. But there's more to it than that.

The Iconian/Yor thing is an old SciFi canard. It's been around for decades, and has been done in better ways than depected here. The Dregin may as well be called "Klingons", "Romulans", "Cardassians", "Mandalorians", or some other generic badguy race. Except that all of these races have something about them that makes them at least slightly interesting. They're not just "the bad guys"; they have a culture and a reason for behaving as they do. The Dregin are just green apes that hate everybody else; they're stock villians.

The Arceans are "the good guys." Well, somebody has to be... I guess.

Compare this to the backstory of Civ. That is a story of history. Of the fundamental state of humanity. Granted, you're talking about the future, not the past. So you can't just steal history.

However, what you can do is what they did with Alpha Centauri. This was a game that was about ideology, which is equally fundamental about humanity. Each side is defined by their world view, and their world views are very human. The Spartan Federation isn't the "Evil Empire"; they're a group of people who believe in survival at any and all costs. Even the Believers aren't evil; they're religious fanatics whose world view and inflexibility does not allow for the expression of certain viewpoints, and they will violently smite what they consider to be "evil". Morgan Industries isn't the evils of Microsoft on crack; they're a group of people who believe in individualism and the purity of the free market system (see quotes from Morgan's book, "The Ethics of Greed").

It's Civ with all of the specifics of history stripped away (the particular names and faces). It's like reading future history.

That has soul. That has heart. Someone put thought and effort into that work and demonstrated a connection with people. It works to draw you into the world by touching on humanity itself.

Even the lofty pretensiousness of World of Warcraft's backstory (desperately trying to be Tolkein without really understanding what that means) has a purpose. It provides something of value by being a significant body of work. That mountain over there isn't just a random mountain; that's Bael Modan, where a Dwarven city was recently founded to seak the truth of the Dwarves' creation as a race. Even a crappy history provides some degree of meaning for a world.

Now granted, you don't need any of this to make a good game. However, it is this kind of stuff that turns a good game into a great game.

There are no competing imbalances in GalCivII. There are simply better or worse ways of exploting the same tools everyone else has.


First, I don't see how your Chess analogy works, because there aren't imbalances in Chess. Everybody starts with the same stuff. If an imbalance is created, it's because someone took someone else's pieces.

Second, I don't believe that competing imbalances are necessary to create good strategy. Hence the Chess point. And let's not forget Go, which likewise has no competing imbalances, yet people have been playing it for millenia.

That's not to say that competing imbalances isn't fun; it certainly can be. But having imbalances doesn't make something more fun that something that doesn't. It may make it more fun for some people, but I'm pretty neutral on this particular issue. When the Civ games added in civ-specifc bonuses (in Alpha Centauri), it was positive from some perspective (specialization), but negative from the perspective of never being able to play a "neutral" civilization: I couldn't play a fair game. To me, the whole thing evened out: neither a plus nor a minus.

And, quite honestly, if you're going to bother with the "competing imbalances" in a space strategy game, you have to be serious about it. Like one race doesn't live on planets at all, another race that has very few actual people, they all get almost entirely different units with different movement types, etc. Otherwise, minor variations with everyone being more or less the same is the way to go.

My problem with the GC2's overall design is that it is predicated on the notion of getting lots of relatively small bonuses rather than a few rather large bonuses. This kind of gameplay creates a certain degree of tedium, since you have to build/research/design a lot of new things to take advantage of the new thing you just got.
Reply #44 Top
I totally agree with your analysis of history/soul. Well done.

I don’t see how your Chess analogy works, because there aren’t imbalances in Chess. Everybody starts with the same stuff. If an imbalance is created, it’s because someone took someone else’s pieces.


You are viewing Chess overly simplisticly. Pieces, ie. Material, is only one of many and often not the most important. Before anyone has moved a piece, the first player has two favorable imbalances: Time(because they get to move first) and Initiative(the second player has to react to them, and it is more difficult for them to concentrate on creating play for themselves because they have to counter the first player’s threats). And this is the weakest part of Chess from a strategic standpoint, the beginning, because the pieces and board are always the same, they can never change.

That isn’t where my argument lies though, its what happens farther down the line when Chess opens up and really shines. Even after white’s most common first move, there are a few different moves open to black which lead generally to different kinds of games. Black can try to simply equalize or to play more counter-attacking style. Other imbalances that can come into play later are Space(having more freedom to move because you control more of the board), Development(having your pieces on more active squares), control of key files & squares, etc. The game becomes a battle of making your advantadges more powerful than your opponents, or conversely, eliminating his advantadges.

The point of all this is that there is very little of this in GalCivII. The starting map can be changed, and some editing of the racial abilities, starting situation etc. can be changed. But that’s as far as it ever gets. After this everyone develops in exactly the same way with exactly the same tools. And that is what makes it a weak game in terms of strategy.

having imbalances doesn’t make something more fun than something that doesn’t. … When the Civ games added in civ-specific bonuses(in Alpha Centauri), it was positive from some perspective(specialization), but negative from the perspective of never being able to play a “neutral” civilization. I couldn’t play a fair game. To me, the whole thing evened out


Well I would say that I object to the fact that GalCivII doesn’t appear to give me the choice to make interesting differences. But fundamentally, this is not what I mean about imbalances. The starting situation isn’t the point, its what happens after. Specific racial bonuses aren’t the point. It is that every game pretty much plays out the same way. Nothing ever happens to upset the strategic apple cart. It is this lack of variety that makes the game shallow, not what bonuses different races do or don’t get.
Reply #45 Top
While I agree that the game has a different feel than others, in comparing it to Civ IV (my most recent obsession) I find the focus of this game lends itself to a more adaptable type of play. In Civ, the racial bonuses and special units were the focus of the game. You chose the leader based on the type of victory you wanted and the special units that nation gave you was a prime consideration as to when you attacked. I usually played as Catherine the Great and my main expansion period was as soon as I got the cossack unit which, given equal techs, was the most powerful offensive unit for the next 40-70 turns. This game's small tech advances plays out better (I think) becuase it gives you choices and forces you to make tradeoffs (attack/defense/hp/speed) and allows you pick tech advances and combine them so that your units are truly different from each other. In my games I'll often has 3-5 versions of a similiar hull type active at any one time (1 engine and extra guns for "home guard", 2 engines and one less gun with life support for "strikers", all engines and 1 gun and life support for "transport/trader" killer deep in enemy territory). So while I agree that the way the tech tree plays out is a little tedius since there isn't a point where you leap ahead or you don't look ahead and say "I'll wait until I get X tech before attacking those pesky Terrans" I find it enhances the strategic aspect of the game, not distracts from it.

As for competing imbalances, they are hard to balance. Any time you make someone radically different from another, you run into exploits/odd occurances that change the game. Also, the start of the game/race placement determines the entire game for you. Right now, I can randomize locations for 6 races and I'll almost always be near one that is warlike and one that is expansive. It keeps me from neglecting one part of my game to focus too heavily on another. I'm not sure what kind of imbalances you are thinking of, but if you take the race that has a hive mind, I would think that an imbalance for them would be something along the lines of much higher tactical base but the inability to build anything larger than small ships (giving them a swarming type of attack). So I can expect to see fleets that are twice the size of mine. Now if I'm a race that has advanced mental powers and my imbalances is to build a ship that can amplify my powers and project a defensive field around my fleet that gives it a -3 to damage taken (think moveable starbase kind of defense) my game will play out completely differently if I start it next to this race versus starting next to the religious fanatic race that gets one kamakaze attack before combat starts and will use that to take out my defensive ship every time. I prefer to play out my games the way I want while being aware of who's around me and not have every be determined by who I happened to end up next to and if I'm lucky enough to get a race who's imbalance can be negated.

Reply #46 Top
Right now, I can randomize locations for 6 races and I'll almost always be near one that is warlike and one that is expansive. It keeps me from neglecting one part of my game to focus too heavily on another. ... prefer to play out my games the way I want while being aware of who's around me and not have every be determined by who I happened to end up next to and if I'm lucky enough to get a race who's imbalance can be negated.


I can only say that it appears you are conflicted ... if the game 'keeps me from neglecting one part of my game', then it does not by definition allow you to 'play out my games the way I want ... and not have every be determined by who I happened to end up next to'. The game is still forcing you to play a certain way, the difference is that there is no variety from game to game.

if I'm a race that has advanced mental powers and my imbalances is to build a ship that can amplify my powers and project a defensive field around my fleet that gives it a -3 to damage taken (think moveable starbase kind of defense) my game will play out completely differently if I start it next to this race versus starting next to the religious fanatic race that gets one kamakaze attack before combat starts and will use that to take out my defensive ship every time.


You say this negatively, but its a great example of what I'm talking about. I cannot for the life of me digest why cookie-cutter gameplay is preferable to a situation in which you have to adjust to your enemy. Again, its a case of throwing strategy off the bus and replacing it with memorization of build/research/etc. orders.



Reply #47 Top
One counter argument to radical imbalances between races is as follows. If you know that an enemy has, as Haasen suggests, swarming fleets and you have good defenses, then if you're doing even remotely well you will always win. In the extreme limit this reduces to 9x9 table of paper, sissor, stone etc. and victory is determined entirely by your starting neighbours. Admittedly the game could withstand a bit more complexity, without destroying the balance, but it has to be a tradeoff (given finite development resources).

The problem with this situation is simply that you can't adjust, not if the imbalances are too pronounced.
Reply #48 Top
Perhaps I'm not being clear, because once again the thrust of my argument is being ignored. Having racial differences that are more interesting is only a small part of it, but it is a concept that would be enhanced were the main point to be used. The main point is, I repeat, that the progress of each game should be differentiated. That in the course of the game, not dictated at the start but through depth of strategical options after the game has started, the situation would shift. That it would not always be best to do the same things every time. I have already posted the vehicles for doing this. If all you do is change the starting races but leave everything else as is, it doesn't address my concerns because it is still a matter of finding the one best way, the one best order of doing things, that is sufficient for all situations and doesn't every need to be edited or reconsidered.
Reply #49 Top
Currently there isn't any reason to pick lasers over mass drivers of missiles since they play exactly the same way. That was a lost opportunity. So I can just choose one at random at the beginning of the game and be done with it and the only reason to pick a different one is because you've adjusted to my first one; though you'll adjust to the second one just as easily.


I find a lot of strategic 'depth', if you will, in how fleets are comprised. As outlined in the manual and in-game, beam weapons do the least amount of damage, but require the least about of space; mass drivers do mid-range damage and require a medium amount of space; and missiles do the most damage while requiring the most amount of space. The various defenses that are available, and variety of ways you can build ships for attack and defense, keeps fleet-building interesting.

Regarding GalCiv2's 'soul': To me, this game is about 'space opera' empire management. It's like a Babylon 5 universe being played out over several hundred turns. Because it encapsulates an entire universe in 'feel' and scope, it's only natural to have quite a bit of abstraction. It makes sense when you're dealing with populations in the billions, large numbers of fleets, and technological advancements that encompass multiple aspects (diplomacy, military, economics, influence, etc.) And while there may be a 'linear' progression (of sorts) here and there, the game is in no way as 'linear' as Civ IV or Alpha Centauri. In Civ IV there is very little randomness, hardly any customization, and you are left with 'tried and true' (formula) strategies. Alpha Centauri had more randomness and customizability (changing world events, unit design, etc.) but ultimately suffered from a lot of limitations in it's economic, diplomatic and combat mechanics. GalCiv2, in my opinion, is a superior game if only because it allows for non-linear modes of play (eg.: going from diplomatic/economic domination to military domination and back again, and then deciding to go for a research win at the end). Combat may not be as tactically 'interesting' as, say, Age of Wonders, but there is still a great deal of strategic planning that goes into building your ships and fleets, and that, combined with the other modes of play, give GalCiv2 a lot of replayability.

Starcraft was a good game, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it had a 'soul'. The single-player campaign, while interesting, was nothing but a well-crafted story. In the end, the game played the way any classic RTS played, with online multi-player being the same as it is today: full of high-strung competitiveness. Dawn of War is a much better game, in my opinion, if only because the races/factions have much more personality; but it's still an RTS geared for muli-player ... just like Starcraft. While not story-driven, per se, GalCiv2 does offer its own kind of 'soul' in the sense that you have a much greater control over what the game is--in other words, you can command any kind of empire you want, even go so far as to create your own personized race and ship designs. Also, I don't think you can really compare TBG's to RTS's; the two have dramatic differences in 'feel', unit approach and presentation: the former is more movie-like and frenetic, while the latter, by virtue of its game mechanics, is going to be more abstract.
Reply #50 Top
Zorrmorph, the reason I didn't address that was because I haven't found that to be case so far. I entirely agree with your argument in as far as I think it would be great if each game were different. And yes, not because of the different starting points, but because of the choices the player, and the AI, make during the game. While I agree that there are certain tactics that should be employed pretty much every game, I don't agree that the overall strategy or game itself has to be same each time.

Essentially I've had quite a different experience in each game I've played, so as far as I've seen, what you're asking for (in general, if not the details) is already there.

However, it does sound like you've played the game more than I have, so perhap I will feel the same way after a few more goes.

Oh, and the chess analogies don't seem particularly apt to me. Chess' starting position is reasonably symmetric, but not at all homogeneous, whereas GalCiv II starts off reasonably homogeneous, on large scales at least. That it the diverges from that point is part of its strength.