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Galactic Civilizations II, Copy Protection, and Piracy

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Galactic Civilizations II, Copy Protection, and Piracy

Setting the record straight

from GalCiv2 Forums

Digg is reporting that a website is implying that we want Galactic Civilizations II to be pirated.  Absolutely not! Of course we DO NOT want our game to be pirated. We're a small company, every lost sale hurts us.

This got started because sales reports on Galactic Civilizations II have been much higher than anticipated. We've now outsold the first Galactic Civilizations in North America in the first 10 days. Last week we were apparently the #1 PC game at Walmart. 

Naturally, some peple have taken the conclusion that because we don't have copy protection on our game, that we invite piracy. That is not the case, we simply think there are other ways to stop piracy than CD checks, strict DRM, etc.

What we do is provide a serial # that users can choose to enter when they install and use that unique serial # to download free and frequent updates.

Our license allows you to install the game onto as many machines that you own that you want as long as only one copy is being used at once.

How many sales are lost because people want to have a game on their laptop and desktop and don't want to drag CDs around so choose not to buy the game?

Our company also makes utility software. We've been around a long time -- 14 years now. Our software gets pirated. We don't like it but piracy is a fact of life. And not every pirated copy means a lost sale.

The question isn't about eliminating piracy, it's about increasing sales. It's about trying to make sure that people who would buy your product buy it instead of steal it. 

Our primary weapon to fight piracy is through rewarding customers through convenient, frequent, free updates.

If you make it easy for users to buy and make full use of your product or service legitimately then we believe that you'll gain more users from that convenience than you'll lose from piracy.

We realize that some people or companies might feel threatened at any evidence that implies that draconian DRM schemes or CD copy protection may not make that big of a difference in sales. 

For example, we were quite disturbed to discover that the company that makes Starforce provided a working URL to a list of pirated GalCiv II torrents. I'm not sure whether what they did was illegal or not, but it's troubling nevertheless and was totally unnecessary.

All software is pirated, there's no way around it. We've been making software for over 10 years.  We don't like our software being pirated.  Like I said, every lost sales has an impact on us.  But there are other ways to reduce it than through draconian copy protection systems.

Incidentally, the site that Starforce's forum admin linked to "prove" how much our software was being pirated we visited, followed the instructions on the site to get our game removed and the links were removed within a couple of hours.  We'll continue to follow-up with them.

Update: Starforce has removed the URL to the illegal files.

Update: View follow-up.

523,868 views 309 replies
Reply #201 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
First, did you noticed that no Stardock employees have written anything in this topic it just mean that stardock dont really care about the event they've got the link removed that's what they wanted in the first place. They're probably happy that it make publicity for their game, but they would have been happy even without the publicity the event made.


Well, I tend to disagree. I think StarDocks employees would be on thin ice to start StarForce bashing with us (they are part of a company after all) - and if they are going to sue StarForce, they surely won't boast about it publicly before as this could hurt their case. Just my 2c, though..

And for StarForce: Its intrusive, an insult to paying customers and a potential risk for my PC. So why would I want anything with that protection on my machine?
Yes it hurts the developers if I don't buy a SF-protected game, but a good developer should have a word with his publisher then to use a different method of protection! And if I keep buying these games "because of the developers", SF will prevail. If game companies (that don't learn from their mistakes) have to die to get rid of SF, so be it.
Reply #202 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
This looks lika a campaign of the copy protection/DRM mafia.
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #203 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I've never heard of Starforce before this. What an introduction! I've checked all of my installed software (past and present) and - relief! - I think I'm safe. Yeah! I'll NEVER buy a program 'protected' by Starforce. Not even Heroes of Might and Magic V {sniff}. What a racket.
Reply #204 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But I have my problems with starforce:

- First of all they look dam unprofessional to me. Look at their support forum. Even if most of the complainers are some kind of jerks. The way they respond doesn´t give me much confidence if I have a real problem.

- No game for 50$ is worth potentially mess up my computer system outside the game

- No software I buy has a right to tell me which other programs should be installed on my computer

- Programs with starforce seem to have a tendency not to work after a few years because the protection system has serious problems to recognize a legal copy if there are mayor or minor changes in the OS. Some threads in the support area seem to indicate that the game / copy protection must be updated .Unfortunately sometimes the game company don´t do it. Though bad luck if you want to play your game then after 2 years.....(At least I read this way some comments this way: "Sorry, this game is no longer supported" ???

- I hate it when I have to carry around a disk to play a game. I am kind of messy with my game disks. They tend to get lost. I like to install although a game on my laptop when I travel and I am sitting in my hotel without nothing to do. Here as a buying customer I am worse of then pirat.

Bottom line is: Copy protection yes but if it it is to intrusive or to inconvenient sorry I won´t buy the game.
Reply #205 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Kind of funny that you can just unplug your ide optical drives and then use any emulator to mount and play starforce disks

I went out and bought a copy of GalCiv II after reading about the StarForce hijinx, how about that StarForce? I don't have any time to play but I loved GalCiv 1 and I like what I've seen during the development of GalCiv II .. when life calms down I'll crack it open and see what the game is about. In the mean time good luck and consider suing starforce, they've certainly violated some international IP treaty.
Reply #206 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
All this talk about no DRM and how the developers of Galciv treat us like mature adults made me finally stop wasting time and buy the game. I've just quit out half way through my first game and I'm having a blast. I'm about to lose because my research is miles ahead of everyone else, but I didn't go a military route and the Yor have just declared war on me. I can only build starfurys. Still, thanks again for a great game! No DRM got you my money.
Reply #207 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Same for me, the fact that the game was without intrusive copy protection scheme made me choose to buy this wonderful software. I really hope that Starforce will make an apology for the unmature/risky/(illegal ?)/unprofessional/disrespectful behavior of their moderator.
Keep up on the good work stardock and provide such quality !
May the Starfarce be without you !
Reply #209 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi Guys!

Having a starforce team member posting that link means that they are very troubled by your business model, since you are doing so well. As for me i don't buy any starforce protected game and i totally support your policy regarding piracty. That said i bought GalCiv II and, after the first playing hours, i can assure you that i'll buy GalCiv III when it will be out (take all the time you need, i think GalCiv II will be on my hard drive for a looooooooooooong time)
Reply #210 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just read the news over the weekend...these guys are the biggest boobs I have ever seen. My gawd....

Stardock, you jsut keep doing what you're doing. Every sale you get prooves that they shouldn't exist. Good on ya.
Reply #211 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You impress the hell out of me. It's about time someone put their foot down and decided to provide a better experience, rather than a "better" DRM solution that can cause all hell for their clients... I've gone so far as to have two conflicting DRM's crash my system so hard that they forced a reformat, and I never want to see that again. I don't know much about your game in general, but I think I may buy it simply to reward you for what you've done here. You can win more with customer-company respect than you can ever will with high-horse sermons and DRM that breaks the rest of the computer in the meantime. Thank you for what you have done here today.
Reply #212 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I've just bought this game partly on the basis that it is a great game, but partly because of the humane and mature stance you are taking on this issue. So glad to see it doing well and shoving DRM where it belongs. Keep it up!
Reply #213 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
So far I've talked to dozens of people about the game (who immediately or later purchased a copy) and 2/3 of those asked point blank "Does it use Starforce?" When I replied "The only copy protection is that registered users get free content updates and upgrades" - every one of them picked up a copy (several of whom may not have bought one otherwise, and one who bought one out of principal but expects to give it as a gift).

You're making a difference, and singlehandedly changing the way the software industry will do buisness. It's not just your stance on copy protection, but the fact that you are so vocal about it. None of this would matter anyway if, in addition to all that, you hadn't also delivered a fantastic game.

I'd also like to point out that there are as many pirated copies of Starforce games on the popular torrent sites as there are non-starforce games. You should definately talk to a lawyer about the whole linking to pirated software thing. If you were to take ANY kind of legal action, it make huge waves the likes of which we simply havn't seen yet (national television loves scandal).
Reply #214 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
In addition to my last post, I'd like to thank you personally. I like to game on my desktop but I'm out and about a lot with only my laptop. So many great "portable" games these days are starting to use StarForce (*cough* trackmania *cough*) - and I simply can't afford to tote the CDs around with me. Heck, that's why I use my laptop for gaming and not a playstation.

With GalCiv2 I can get my grand strategy to go... without being punished for being a legitimate owner. Thank you again, Stardock. Don't be intimidated by those other companies. The only thing that matters is strong sales - and you've got that more than you can keep up with!
Reply #215 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I checked out the Starforce site and read a number of posts on their forums. It is interesting to see how they are backpedaling, though not speedily, on this and other issues regarding their approach to DRM. Many of the threads on their General Discussion boards are now locked because they couldn't handle the volume of people coming in from this forum, Slashdot and other places complaining about their attitude and even their own software. It is sad that in their apology they don't fully admit wrongdoing - though I can see how they would not want to open themselves up to a lawsuit.

I don't think Stardock needs to sue them at this point. Starforce has done enough damage to themselves through this and other actions. They just blew their whole foot off shooting at it this time.
Reply #216 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
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javascript:editor_insertHTML('PageTheme__Right__ctl0__ucCommentForm_comments_txtBody',' ')I whole-heartedly agree with you guys. This FAR AND AWAY the most convenient game I've ever installed. Of course I registered so I could access the extras and updates. Perhaps if more did what you did, they've expend FEWER RESOURCES trying (often in vain) to protect the game, and MORE TIME providing cool add-ons and making cool games..
Reply #217 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
WOW,

What a bunch of !@#$'s. I'll admit it, I download games on a file sharing program, but If the game is great and is worth it, I ALWAYS go out and buy it. I think of downloading games as try before you buy. With are the cr@p that is making it to the shelves these days, I think one would call it consumer protection, not piracy. I can't tell you how many times downloading and trying a game before I bought it has saved me $$. There are just so many people trying to make a dollar on cr@ppy software, yes demos are ok, but usually they don't show it all, or are lacking pieces of the larger build. Incedentally I did'nt have to download a copy of GalCiv2 to know it was going to be a great game.
Reply #218 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I was so disturbed after hearing these series of events I just wanted to let you guys know I will NEVER buy ANY starforce products and as soon as I get off of work today I plan on heading to the store and puchasing a copy of Galactic Civilizations II for the sole reason of your stance on this issue. I am sure its a great game and grats on your ongoing success with it but I will ALWAYS support companies like yours that actually give a damn about the real gamer. Keep up the good work Stardock.
Reply #219 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I dont have this game yet, but now Im going to buy it just for the sake of it not having any starforce virus or spy or junkware of anykind. I hope I get a great game and to heck with the starforce mobsters.
Reply #220 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just for the benefit of your happiness, I would like to inform you (Stardock) that I bought GalCiv2 primarily because of your values in regards to DRM, installing on multiple machines and such. Being primarily an MMO player I haven't really been affected too much with insane, computer breaking DRM systems but I have run into the rediculous requirement to have the CD's in the drive on multiple occasions.

In either case, I know I'm not the only one supporting your company due to this. Of course the game itself affected my decision and I'm having a blast with the game but it is my first commercial game in this genre that I've purchased in the long time! Now if I could just figure out how to beat those nasty Dread Lords!
Reply #221 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
"For example, we were quite disturbed to discover that the company that makes Starforce provided a working URL to a list of pirated GalCiv II torrents. I'm not sure whether what they did was illegal or not, but it's troubling nevertheless and was totally unnecessary. "

If that's true I surely hope there's a way to sue. There needs to be an internet-wide call to action against starfoce and any loser distributors that use it. No gamer wants starforce on their PC. None. It's bad enough that we have to be threatened by their software but for them to essentially attack Stardock is beyond unacceptable.

Why is it that one can find multiple sites with cracks on them easily yet distributors employ starforce instead of going after those sites?
Reply #222 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
#61 Francis Deshenes - How much starforce paid you for this post??

I did like to inform you that games with starforce are pirated too and not necessarly less than games without starforce because it's sure there is at least one hacker who take protection program hacking as a challenge and he like challenges.

If you're saying i'm a pirate than it's official you've been paid by starforce to make that post.


Since there are no arguments in your post I'll just say that I think you are a bandwagon hopper. And where did I say that StarForce protected games aren't being pirated?? It's popular these dats to hate DRM/StarForce so you join the bandwagon against those that try and be a little objective or offer some counterarguments...pathetic....

# 63 Monky Pants - Nonsense. Starforce games have and will be cracked and warezed, too. All using something like Starforce does is:
1) Take money away from the developer (you know, the one that's making actual content.
End of quote


Copyprotection is an investment (you know, so it gets harder to steal the game).


2) Cause all sorts of problems for, invade the privacy of, treat like a criminal, and generally irritate and annoy legitimate paying customers.
End of quote


StarForce 3.5 did have some problems but that have been fixed now (see a post by Heroes V producer Fabrice named "StarForce" in the Heroes of Might & Magic V forums). Invading privacy..? LOL! That's just an excuse. But what "privacy invasion" do you mean? The drivers?
"Treat like a criminal" <-- Even more worthless arguments The publishers protects their game with copyprotection and you say they treat you like a criminal.... In that case, gamers have been treated like criminals since copyprotection on CDs were invented!
"Generally irritate and annoy legitimate customers". If people can't be bothered to enter a serial to get their games working then its really sad....if you talk about having to have the disc in the drive then I'll agree with you a little. Inserting the disc once a week should be enough (StarForce people have said that they can do this but publishers don't want to)

3) Cause the guy who pirates the software a 5 hour job instead of a 5 minute job. Big whoop. The game still gets pirated.
End of quote


Publishers do what they can.

All it takes is ONE person to bypass the protection ONE time, and it's out in the wild, with the genie out of the bottle. If your software has a large enough user base, this CAN and WILL happen. It's all 1s and 0s at that point and a previously 'protected' title spreads at the exact same speed as a previously unprotected one.
End of quote


Yes, but the job of copyprotections are to delay that time as much as possible since most sales are done the first month of release.


The only question is how many customers will you lose, how many customers will you annoy, and how much bad press will you get in exchange for your payments to the 'protection' guys.
End of quote


Why do people argue onesided like this....?? Is is just to annoy since they got nothing better to say?? They'll also get more sales if the protection are efficient enough.

#67 Pitiful - I would just like to offer you a shovel, I want to make sure you dig yourself so deep that starforce will never agian see the light of day.
PS If you would be so kind as to drag all the other DRM's down with you I would very much appreciate it, thanks.
End of quote


Why do you associate me with StarForce? I think I won't answer to anymore idiots...I've almost had it now!
/me adds citizen pitiful to his idiotlist.

[Quote]Star Dragon - Is this a serious post? Are you really someone who speaks for StarForce? If so, please do your company a favor and submit your resignation. Wow. Just ... wow.

Why shouldn't it be? When did I say that I work for StarForce?

I don't know what to say...why the hell do you believe that everybody that isn't on your side of the fence (being objecvice or partial to the other side) is working for StarForce???

And everybody that answers me like #67 pitiful are considered flamers by me.
Reply #223 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just a question, any one here have an advance copy of Vista? Not asking about pirating, just curious to see what copy protected games will work with Vista. I would like to know in advance if upgrading to Vista will require a total rework of the DRM used in games and which if any games will fail. I doubt very much if Gal Civ II will have any problems.
Reply #224 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Copy protection such as Starforce is now actually goiing to start hurting sales in the first month as more and more gamers are simply not buying software that uses it.

It is not a statement but a fact...this 40 year old gamer has had enough of this kind of bs. I want software that works not something that crashes my rig, possibly damage my hardware and potentially leaves me at risk.

Stardocks approach and steam I am fine with.....the game works as it should and I lose no performance with cd checks and other bad ideas.

Piracy is not a problem witih Gal Civ 2..you know why...good games sell period. Has nothing to do with the copy protection and never has.
Reply #225 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thank you for taking this approach. I was on the fence about going out to get this game, and truthfully I was waiting to see what Penny Arcade had to say about it.

Your values on the subject of DRM and copy protection have won me over. I will be purchasing Galactic Civ II.

If you're looking for suggestions, I was also impressed with Blizzard's handling of Starcraft. Battlenet provided a similar content-based incentive to not pirate, and I was particularly fond of the "spawn" feature as well.

Blizzard won my loyalty back in 1997 with these features. I'm not above copying games, but I don't copy Blizzard games.

Stardock just made that list.

Thank you again.