I am an avaid WOW player, and I probably won't get time to play your game for a while, but I just wanted to say that I going to buy it today, because of your attitude towards the customers. Keep looking after us in this way, and we will keep coming back for more....

For a number of years, i have purchased very few games, because of copy protection problems, so it's nice to be able to spend my money on a company that deserves it. Thanks again.

"You can make working backup copies, and can store all of your discs safely away where they won't be damaged."

That's not completly true in the case of GalCiv2. If you updated a digitally downloaded or a retail updated version of the game, you will still have to activate it online (or through e-mail).

See Stardock support pages.

I can't believe someone would say a company WANTS its game pirated... why on earth would any company want that??? Stardock's way of doing things is almost impossible to hack, so I really wish people would stop slandering it..
Looking forward to many more decent (and hopefully still un-pirated!) games.

My recent post at Starforce...wonder how long it will stay up?

http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=852

Posted on x3 site trying to get them to take starforce off , plz take part in poll and help get egosoft to do 2 starforce what ubisoft did.

Hey I bought my copy and if you ever port GalCiv2 or any of your games to consoles XBOX, XBOX 360, PS3, I would buy it again.

Nuff Said....

[quote=Ryan Vincent] What does "Draconian copy protection" mean?

Draconian: Excessively harsh

[quote=HaDAk]Why do I pirate games? Simple. .....

I must disagree. I completly understand the trials of a heavy financial burden, just as I completly understand the plight of those with low income.

I have a terminal medical condition, and must survive on the pittance I get each month to pay for my meds and other basic necessities. If I buy a game that turns out to be a POS, I really have no recourse. I have to wait until I eek out enough money for the next one. Is it irritating when I get shelfware? Of course. Is it frustrating when I have to wait several months to get a game I really want because I have to wait for the price to drop or save enough? Indeed. But that does not give me the right to pirate someone else's work. Have you ever had anything stolen from you? Remember how that felt? Yet you state you do the same thing. Stealing from an individual is no more immoral than stealing from a company. Whether it's the local thrift shop, a monster company like Microsoft, or the guy next door. Stealing is stealing, and justifying piracy because your financially challanged makes it that much more disgusting. Perhaps if you put the same effort into legitimate work that you put into piracy you could afford the buy the game.

I am only stating my opinion to your opinion. Take it for what you will.

I've supported you're products for several years now, including some OS2 applications years ago. I've always felt your products offered excellent value for money. I bought both Galactic Civilization 1 & looked forward to 2 and haven't been disappointed.

The fact that you've never deemed it necessary to resort to "copy protection", and your products are cheap i.e execellent value for money compared to many, has kept your products and company held in high regard with myself.

I've just informed yet another company that I won't be buying their product in this instance due to the inclusion of Starforce (Spellforce 2 JoWoods) Link.

hi all I am a south African male age 24 it takes me all of 25 minutes to crack any game that includes games with star force I’m glad to see companies like this actually trying something new i will buy it when it gets released here if for nothing else as to have full content and updates also cause the game developers actually earned their money on this game I take my hat of to a brave and bold company furthermore I condemn what starfoce did and know they did it out of fear for windows is going the same root as you guys (developers of gal civ 2) sure have the product but hehe if you want all the cool stuff we please buy the fact is cd copy protection is the old way of doing things and it’s not working at all if the software community is to survive this torrent of piracy well we have to adapt and I’m glad to see you doing just that KEEP ROCKING and boy I can’t wait to buy your game the updates really look impressive

The reason i bought GalCiv2 IS becuase of the no Copyprotection. The game is awesome btw. I am now boycotting ANY AND ALL games with Starforce in them, i finally experianced first hand the trouble SF causes. I respect Stardock alot and will be keeping a VERY close eye on them for any software that comes up that interest me from now on. Mainly because they took a stand for the customer and not the almighty dollar.

Star Force is the Worst invention Ever.

No offence but it actually INCORAGES! me to pirate the game sicne a pirated version excludes starforce.

I just bought beyond divinity which I knew had star force but when I use software taht uses starforce I unplug all my CD drives and place my cheap 5$ 4xCDrom

and to my suprise! Star Force isn't compatible with Windows XP 64 bit!!!!

This is horrible! I payed 20$ for a game to en up it doesn't run!

no offence, but that is stupid.

why should WE! the loyal customers be given penalties for things other use, and whom do in criminal methods not get our trouble!

I Loath Microsoft, but I loath Starforce even more. They ruined some of teh greatest games, Trackmania, Splinter Cell and brother in arms. games taht demand a powerfull PC, but if you have 64bit, forgeth playing it.

Thanks Star Dock. You guys are a shining example in the gaming industry, you give us superb game at resonable prices and make it so I can play at home and on my laptop anytime.

Ok, I have a few questions about "activation". I just purchased a copy of the game (retail copy) and I am not happy in the least. I believe I have been "bait and switched" by deceptive marketing tactics.

1) Why do I have to "activate it online?". This is the most insidious form of DRM. It means that if I am in the mountains and my video card dies (did once), I can’t reload, update and play the game because I have no net access. I would *MUCH PREFER* a copy protected CD as then I can play the game.

2) I have lots of old games (over 250 of them). A lot of them I occasionally still play (MOO, MOO2, Imperialism I and II, Close Combat Series, X-Com, Heroes of Might and Magic, etc.) If Stardock goes under, then my game is now a useless coaster. I have lots of games from many companies that no longer exist. My understanding is that if Stardock vanishes tomorrow we can no longer load, update and play an updated game of GalCiv II due to the activation. This is exactly the type of marketing decisions I wish NOT to support. I refuse to purchase Half-life 2 and any of the Steam based games simply on that reason alone. Once Valve goes under all your games are now coasters. They may look good now, but so did Microprose one time back. Once the bean counters figure out that it isn’t profitable to support old games, you loose.

Am I wrong? I could be. However I was lead to believe that all I needed was the game and a serial number and I would not have to worry about the CD (which is true). But what I ended up with (phone home) in my mind is worse, much… much worse. Since it forces the consumer to depend upon the publisher to even to play an updated game at some point in the future.

(flame retardant suit on)

I have been using computers and playing games on them for 27 years now (let's give a shout out to the Atari 800 - woot!)

Anyway, when I was a little kid I acquired a lot of games through questionable means. I didn't have any money, I liked games, you figure out the rest. What I learned then is that there isn't a copy protection scheme on this planet that can't be easily cracked by someone with a bit of talent.

I got older - I got a job. I started paying full price for all the games I play. I have spent a LOT of money on games over the years, and as an older and wiser person, I believe that companies deserve to be rewarded for their efforts through my cash contribution to their efforts.

Two different philosophies - two different times. The fact of the matter is, if someone seriously wants to pirate games, they are going to find a way, no matter how much inconvenient, and with the advent of things like Star Force, INVASIVE, copy protection is on them. For the rest of us, we deserve a bit of respect from the companies we do business with. Stardock's copy protection on GC2 is good enough to stop casual pirates, and the serious ones are going to crack whatever they want to anyway.

But here's the thing - Stardock has respected me as a customer by not ASSUMING I am a pirate. How nice that I can use this game on 2 machines if I want. And a little tidbit - I installed this game on my wife's machine to play it there, she ended up getting into it, and subsequently BOUGHT HER OWN COPY. Why? Because we honored our license agreement. Stardock respected us enough to assume we would do that. I can tell you if Stardock had put a bunch of impediments in the way that second sale wouldn't have happened. It's the same paradigm I learned in school growing up - when teachers put draconian systems in place to keep me from cheating, I found ways to cheat. It was me against them, it created an adversarial situation. When teachers used the honor system and relied on students to monitor themselves, I behaved honorably. To cheat in that situation would, in my eyes, have reflected on me. I would have been cheating against myself.

Stardock, for the most part, chooses to work with something like the honor system. Yes, there is copy protection to keep every 10 year old from making 7,000 copies for his friends, but it isn't anything onerous or invasive. They know it's easy to crack, they rey on us not to do so. Hey, respect. Hey, honor.

By contrast, I have never, and will never, play a game with Star Force on it. There are no Valve games on my computer. I will never accept copy protection that sends my personally identifiable information to a database, to be subsequently hacked and stolen.

Good on you, Stardock. In my household, your way of doing business has doubled your sales. And now I am more likely to buy the rest of Stardock's library of games than those of other publishers, because I know I can expect the same experience and respect.

Stardock - 2, Star Force - 0

I fully agree with your stand on copy protection. I have bought and used software over a fourty year period. The one thing I cannot stand is copy protection that prevents me from:

a) Making a backup copy of my software, so I won't lose it if something happens, like a disk drive eating the disk (I've lost a couple hundred dollars worth of software in this fashion, as I will NOT buy a replacement disk for a program the law says is legal to make personal backup copies of, but is imposible due to copy protections)

I have on my shelf, gathering dust, at least $1000 worth of games that, played once or twice, I found to be boring, lacking good gameplay, or otherwise found unacceptable. Had I been able to try them out first, I would have put the money on other games that were of higher quality. I hate being forced to buy a 'pig in a poke'.

c) I have tried out many programs I have d/l from 'pirate' sites, in order to see if they were worth buying; and have subsequently bought them when I found them worthy. I have several thousand dollars worth of games/utilities/etc I've bought this way. These sales were a direct result of having access to 'pirated' or borrowed software.

d) I know of a few hackers who tell me there is no such thing as foolproof copy protection, for one basic reason: If the computer can read it, then so can they. It only takes patience and dogged determination to crack even the most sinister scheme. Just ask the CIA how hard it is to keep secrets with cryptography.

So, in time, every good program will be cracked, hacked and pirated. All that is accomplished with copy protection is;
a) It adds to the cost of development
It adds to the cost of the software
c) It pisses off your customers
d) It often makes the software run slower
e) It makes it imposible for the end user to make the legal backup copies
f) It invites hackers to pit their wits against your best programmers
g) It results in loss of revenue to legitimate users who object to the above

I have a copy of Galactic Civilization I am borrowing from a friend who bought it recently. It looks like I'm going to become quite addicted to it; which means I will buy it with my next paycheck in order to:
a) Support the company so they'll make more neat games
I can get company support, upgrades, etc
c) I can show it off to my other gaming friends and generate even more sales for the company...
After all, I know that if the company makes enough money from this program, they will have the funding to create more exciting things.

Thanks for the enlightened attitude. I look forward to more good things from your team. (Like, maybe, a massively multiplayer online version of the game? I am a big Ultima Online gamer, and would love to see a space oriented game of equal quality.)

John Chalinder
Kalispell, MT

I heard about this game from a cousin who knows I like 4X games. So while googling for more info, stumbled on this posts.

It is indeed commendable that Stardock adopts a no-copy protection policy for this game. So as a show of support for companies that writes games I like and gives values to customer, I would be buying a copy later today.

PS - I come from a country where pirated games are available at US$1.25 each, buy 5 get 1 free.

DRM stands for "Digital Rectal Manipulation"! I have never heard of your game until I got bit by Starforce on 2 destroyed Combo CD/DVD writers! I had pre-ordered X-3 and it ate my DVD writing ability and I've wasted about 30 DVD's. I bought a new writer and a game called Pariah! Now it's doing the same thing except I can at least write a DVD just takes 4 times at long. Now I check and will never ever buy a game on the Boycott Starforce List.

I bought Stardock Customization when you first came out, but haven't been customizing my desktop much lately for Windows as I only run it for games. My main OS is now Xgl Linux {no DRM ever}! But anyway I will buy your game just because of your attitude and the fact that it is rated high and Stardock has always put out a good product.

The whole music, movie, and software industry (Especially their ignorant bastard publishers), need to get their heads re-fastened on straight. Every industry through time has had to deal with what is sometimes referred to "Waste", "Publicity Costs", etc.

From restaurants to auto manufacture there is a certain amount of scrap, waste, and excess they've needed to write off as part of doing business. Yes they have a right and obligation to take steps at preventing those losses. But at what cost? At what point do the cost of prevention out weigh the gain? Hi-tech Piracy will never be stopped and companies that spend too much time as proctologist probing their customers arses won't get nothing but shit in return!

I've learned my lesson and many more people are learning theirs and switching to OSes that have no DRM , games that state right on the box that they're DRM free! Hopefully the Publishers get the hint before too many good software, music artist, and film people go out of business, when everyone ends up switching to Free and Open Linux Community!

My understanding is that if Stardock vanishes tomorrow we can no longer load, update and play an updated game of GalCiv II due to the activation

Incorrect. Once your GC2 is installed, it's installed. Obviously Stardock won't be providing updates after they vanish.

1) Why do I have to "activate it online?".

You don't. You can install it and not activate.

This system is still DRM. It may not be on the disk, but it is still DRM. In effect Stardock is saying 'you can only buy this game new at full price, because if you see it at a low price in a bargain bin, or $5 less than retail on ebay or wherever, you cannot be sure you will not get a 'serial number already exists'. This was exactly the problem Steam had with HL2 and there was an uproar - why is this any different? You still need to log onto a site you still need to enter a valid serial and any problem and YOU the gamer, has to jump through hoops ('got the Italian version, or the gold version or the special Walmart pack? Oh sorry, you need to do this and this and this...' And to the previous message. You DO have to register online, or you don't get the bug fixes and 'improvements' that have come out regularly since the game came out (Bet they were lined up ready to go to make sure people would sign up to the DRM system to get them!)

That, my friend is DRM.

All that Stardock have done is taken it off disk and by that one thing pulling the wool over gamers eyes - genius marketing, but it's still DRM. Just like with HL2, I cannot sell the game, I cannot buy a second hand copy, I have to be concerned over any copy in any store that is below RRP. Or any copy in any store period. Because all Stardock says is 'you'll have to return it!' In Europe, with PC games, that's not easy in any store! But in any event, that's not the point! All the same HL2 problems that gamers went potty over and here they are ignoring!

So well done Stardock, you can obviously fool some of the people most of the time or most of the people some of the time, but you'll never fool all of the people all of the time, and you haven't fooled me. You watch this method of DRM grow until people catch on. Maybe they won't. But in the same way I wouldn't buy HL2 via Steam I won't buy Gal Civ II.

As time goes on and more and more people that don't know about Stardock's form of DRM are going to buy this game on ebay or in bargain bins or at boot sales, and it won't be until they install the game and try and update it they get the 'serial number in use (without saying 'by a user that last accessed our site 18 months ago and could be dead!'), please BUY a new serial number by clicking on this link..' This will slowly, over time, build a long list of gamers complaining on forums and with their local councillers and Trading Standards Officers and at some point the poop will hit the fan, because if Stardock end up selling 100,000 copies of this, that's 80,000 copies in a couple years that will be floating out there waiting for unsuspecting buyers...

Stardock have produced a system that creates short term gain for them and long term pain for buyers. Well done Stardock, I congratulate you! Great marketing! You certainly seem to have the majority on this thread fooled!

Stardock have produced a system that creates short term gain for them and long term pain for buyers.

Beg pardon, but even though I've really not read this thread, I have to protest humourguy's overall take even if I might yield on the question of whether Stardock Central is just another DRM.

One of the reasons I've ended up being one of the "fools" you so blithely dismiss is that I've been reading about Brad Wardell's devotion to this game since it was OS/2 shareware.

Mind you, I'm no capitalist and I try to get everyone I can to read John Perry Barlow's The Economy of Ideas. Copyright is wrong as we currently practice it.

But AFAIK, Mr. Wardell is "my kind of capitalist." Stardock are forthright about their desire to have us pay them to keep working. They do not appear to waste excessive resources on secondary matters like marketing or freaking out about whether what passes for (C) law is being violated by folks playing their games.

If I had my way and the Library of Congress became the world's greatest clearing house for information, I'd likely *still* pay Stardock to keep adding to that pile of "free stuff."

I have lost/broke cds in the past and had to steal a replacement online...(legal but annoying) So your system of download when you want and make as many copies as you want(of games you purchased) without hassle is great.

Also I always download cracks to my legally purchased games to avoid scratching/using the cds... ALL GAMES I HAVE, HAVE CRACKS FOR THEM without exception so making this a standard is a great idea.

By having no cd protection you have gained my respect and gained a repeat customer.

As for starforce...They are evil, I never buy their games anymore!!! Had to reinstall my pc once because of their 'protection', malware by any definition other then their own... and the 2 games with their protection that I purchased before adopting this rule, I downloaded from the internet, starforce free to play(hey I own legal copies so I should be able to play without malware being installed on my pc)... so even their protection doesn't help for long...

Wouldn't be surprised if they uploaded the torrents to your game in the first place...as I said, they are evil...

Ok, I have a few questions about "activation". I just purchased a copy of the game (retail copy) and I am not happy in the least. I believe I have been "bait and switched" by deceptive marketing tactics. 1) Why do I have to "activate it online?". This is the most insidious form of DRM. It means that if I am in the mountains and my video card dies (did once), I can’t reload, update and play the game because I have no net access. I would *MUCH PREFER* a copy protected CD as then I can play the game. 2) I have lots of old games (over 250 of them). A lot of them I occasionally still play (MOO, MOO2, Imperialism I and II, Close Combat Series, X-Com, Heroes of Might and Magic, etc.) If Stardock goes under, then my game is now a useless coaster. I have lots of games from many companies that no longer exist. My understanding is that if Stardock vanishes tomorrow we can no longer load, update and play an updated game of GalCiv II due to the activation. This is exactly the type of marketing decisions I wish NOT to support. I refuse to purchase Half-life 2 and any of the Steam based games simply on that reason alone. Once Valve goes under all your games are now coasters. They may look good now, but so did Microprose one time back. Once the bean counters figure out that it isn’t profitable to support old games, you loose. Am I wrong? I could be. However I was lead to believe that all I needed was the game and a serial number and I would not have to worry about the CD (which is true). But what I ended up with (phone home) in my mind is worse, much… much worse. Since it forces the consumer to depend upon the publisher to even to play an updated game at some point in the future. (flame retardant suit on)

No, you can play the game as installed from CD without needing to activate. If you download the 1.4 update and installed it, then you do need to activate. So you are correct that an updated game will not run when Stardock goes under, but wrong that you must activate to play the game.

And the activation is not tied to the hardware (or not the video card). If you need to replace the video card you will still be able to run the game without needing to reactivate. It is only when you reinstall Windows that you will need to reactivate when you run the updated game.

This was the biggest F---up they could have made, I'm sure this will hurt the use of their (ineffective) product.

This was the biggest F---up they could have made, I'm sure this will hurt the use of their (ineffective) product.

I trust "they" here are Starfoce and not Stardock.

Humourguy - spot on.

I bought a nice shrink wrapped copy of galactic civ II in the UK a few months back (serial is on CD, so not visible until opened).

Opened it a few months later (yesterday) and tried to register - 'cept someone has stolen my serial apparently so I can't. So I can't get the updates I paid for. And support don't want to know about it (they keep claiming I have bought a second hand copy; e.g. calling me a liar)

In this situation, I thought I WAS buying a brand new copy. But no doubt a store employee could of used the serial, or one could have been generated from hacking tools and registered, I don't know.

All I know is I paid for a broken product without realising that's what it was. And the store isn't going to take it back (I got what I paid for). And it seems stardock have there boilerplate "sorry your an idiot and thought you could just simply buy our game at low cost. Now pay us $$ for a serial number" reply to ignore me with.

A lesson learned, and a fair trade lawsuit waiting to happen. Until then, I'll buy games I can keep. Forget this DRM...

So the store sold you a used copy as new and that's Stardock's fault? Interesting...