I'm a bit annoyed at how the map controls work, and I'm not a big fan of the social production model (I find myself deeply cutting sp and beefing up research often).  Honestly I think the game made some cool changes, but I'll still switch back and forth between this and GC I.  I have a lot of the same views I had when Civ III came out - it's cool and it improves on a lot of things, but some of the new features seem to detract from what I loved about the earlier game.  I'm glad I got it as a part of my subscription.

i know, you should return or sell the game and pick up a nice copy of master of orion 3, i'm sure you'll love the UI in it!

Buh? All the EBs I've gone to allow you to return any game, for any reason, within seven days. Madness, but there you go.

I'm still strugging to think of an example of a mechanic I don't understand. All the metagames are pretty self-explanitory, and I've never read the manual nor felt the need to. I guess exactly where the 'advantage' ground combat numbers come from is unknown, but better tech + soldiering bonus = better advantage. Exactly how influence conflicts are resolved - particularly when you end up with a tiny bit of influence far from your colonies - is unknown, but that's hardly critical.

I wish they'd *improve* the UI, to have proper resizable, floating windows, but aside from the text-entry thing I don't have any serious problems with it. I'm certainly not going to read every thread to find examples when you simply can't be bothered mentioning *even one*. I'm not entirely sure why the arrow keys control ships, but I rarely use the keyboard at all. Are you demanding every equation be listed somewhere? No game in existence has ever done that. All the manuals I've ever read use vague terms like 'increase factories to produce more' or 'military rating is based on number and strength of ships'. Without mentioning a single example, or making any concrete demands, I'm not sure how you expect your complaints to be taken seriously.

@ SauceMoney - can you give an example of something GC1 did better? I was entirely unimpressed with GC1 and abandoned it after a few days.

Good...Bad it doesn't matter. You are obviously trolling. You think aimlessly posting flame bait is going to get things changed the way you would like them? Think again. Did you need reasurance that others thought as you did amongst all the GC2 lovers? Needed some playa haters support? Or did you need someone to convince you to like the game? The only thing you accomplished is troll bait everyone and bring down the flames.

I assume you think MOO2 was the Height of UI design for 4x games? or civ4? Have you even played those games lately? (they are good games but not the hieght of design and neither is GC2) Can't really shed a tear for someone who can't enjoy a good game because they thought stepping through 3 menus was too much of a pain. Imperfect? sure! but what game isn't? and why should it damage great gameplay? good game play is good game play and good UI design while nice isn't going to make a "bad" game good. You want to cry about bad interface design then look no further than Age of Empires3 for a recent example of how poor control scheme can hurt a game.(more like what interface). Great interface design is rare in the software industry and is somewhat a subjective thing. Complex games rarely have great interfaces.

You are obviously trolling.

Incorrect. I'm sorry you're so immature you can't take someone posting negative criticism about a game you like.

You like 90% of the game and 10% not and it is a no go for you?Obviously the reviewers had a difference of opinion about the UI issues and the not transparent game mechanics as to how it effects the overall value of the game.For me,having an AI that is actually a challenge is a lot of the draw of the game.I know I have enjoyed games when it might have been 80/20 or 70/30 approval.and a lot of the game mechanics are spelled out in the manual.Honestly,you can't play the game knowing that social production doesn't work the way you like it?

By the way. A better way of stating your opionion would be to say: "Gc2 is a good game but it's interface is terrible to me and is hampering my ability to enjoy what's there. Here are some ways I think it could be improved"...etc.. etc... and post it in the relavant thread.

There is a thing called "constructive criticism" and a thing called "unconstructive criticism." Constructive criticism involves real and sincere yet positive engagement with a process or subject with a focus on improving it for everyone involved. Unconstructive criticism has as its aim a deconstruction or destruction of the process or subject through highly negative means.

I find the original poster unconstructive in their criticisms of the process and subject as the majority of their posts here have lacked real engagement with the material and are definitely negatively aligned. The goal of the original poster, as far as I can tell up to this point, is to undermine others' enjoyment of the game.

It would lend much more credence to the original poster's words and methodology if they would move to a more constructive approach. That would involve making positive suggestions without the "this will make or break my game" attitude. It would also involve taking steps to illuminate what exactly they found good about the game that should be kept at all costs - the "90%" mentioned at the beginning. A fair and equitable examination of the subject and process would go a long way to satisfying both "sides" of the arguments presented. Speak the truth, Citizen Heavensblade23 , but speak it equitably with fairness to the game and the community.

I wish they'd *improve* the UI, to have proper resizable, floating windows, but aside from the text-entry thing I don't have any serious problems with it. I'm certainly not going to read every thread to find examples when you simply can't be bothered mentioning *even one*. I'm not entirely sure why the arrow keys control ships, but I rarely use the keyboard at all. Are you demanding every equation be listed somewhere? No game in existence has ever done that. All the manuals I've ever read use vague terms like 'increase factories to produce more' or 'military rating is based on number and strength of ships'. Without mentioning a single example, or making any concrete demands, I'm not sure how you expect your complaints to be taken seriously.

That's too vague. Other games either have bonuses and such explained thoroughly either in the game or in the manual. Every played Alpha Centauri? I need to know more information than "more factories=more production." How many factories should I build, exactly? Do I need more than one? How much extra production am I getting from each factory? Is it worthwhile to have a planet filled with nothing but factories? Are there other enhancements that help the factories, and if so, I need the answers to these same questions for each of those as well. Right now if I don't know how something works I can't turn to the manual, because the manual is incorrect on many points, and I can't look it up in the game anywhere either because the game displays incorrect numbers in some places. There's basically no where to go but here, and I don't think I should have to post on a web forum to play a game. That's the very definition of unintuitive.

As for making demands, I'm not here to make demands on the dev team. They can either fix it or not fix it. It makes more difference to them than to me since I'm not the one relying on people buying my games and hopefully saying nice things about it.

And I did bring one specific UI issue: The fact that it's the only recent game I can think of that requires three mouse buttons for full functionality.

And here's another one: Farms. Farms are just entirely messed up and at this point I'm wondering if anyone but the devs knows exactly how they work and in what situations they're helpful. More often than not I'm hearing it's not a good idea to ever build one, which brings up the question of why they're in the game. Either that or I'm told to build one, and only one, on some planets, but no one can tell me exactly when.

Wow.... the original poster is 90% happy with the product and is STILL complaining? What the hell you got to do to keep people happy these days?

That would involve making positive suggestions without the "this will make or break my game" attitude. It would also involve taking steps to illuminate what exactly they found good about the game that should be kept at all costs - the "90%" mentioned at the beginning.

Err, shouldn't it be understood that if I say I like 90% of the game, that the bad 10% is the part I'm criticizing? I like the shipbuilder, I like the huge tech tree and variety of options for changing the paramaters of the game. I like the fact that there are ten distinct races and an option for making your option with a custom picture. I like the fact that random events can swing the direction of any one game in an entirely unexpected direction and make the game play out entirely differently. I like the fact that the game is complex, but I wish the complexity was documented in even a rudimentary fashion. Graphics are mediocre, but I don't expect great graphics in a 4X game so that doesn't bother me one way or another. I like the fact that there are several ways to win, and that some are easier for some races than others.

I don't like the stuff I specifically criticized.

That's just off the top my head.

No regrets here. I have been more engrossed in GalCiv2 than I have in any other game in a long time. I have probably over 30 hours of game play in now, and I am not a former beta tester.

Sure there are a few things that can be improved, but overall, I really like what we have. I can't wait to see what tweaks Brad and the crew have down the road for us.

Tony

Wow.... the original poster is 90% happy with the product and is STILL complaining? What the hell you got to do to keep people happy these days?

A game that I'm going to continue playing for more than the first week? If the game is fixed I'll probably still be playing it a year from now. If it's not, it'll probably collect dust on the shelf. I'd rather it be the first type of game than the second.

"the manual is incorrect on many points, and I can't look it up in the game anywhere either because the game displays incorrect numbers in some places."

Name the points. Name the places. That is the only way that the developers will know what you are talking about. Otherwise that sounds like a "generic complaint" to be ignored.

As to farms, strategy may vary - as you said. Perhaps you can take a positive step and empirically examine the various ways they can be used and the problems that may crop up. That way you can again be detailed in your complaint and the developers can take something useful back to their buglists.

Is this time-intensive? Probably. Is it inconvenient for you compared to just waiting for something to be patched? Probably. But by doing the above you will be making a direct positive contribution to the community as well as helping improve your own game experience.

The alternative, of course, is to complain unconstructively and get flamed for it.

The choice is up to you.

Unless I've missed something drastic in the UI, yes, all three mouse buttons are used. Is there another way to change the camera besides mouse3?

Hold down the left and right mouse buttons at the same time. I figured that out the other day at the airport, when I was stuck with just the touchpad on my laptop.

Sorry to hear you aren't enjoying the game. I was similarly dissapointed during the beta, but when the final release came out, so many things were fixed that I rapidly found my mind changed. After what has probably been at least 20 hours of gameplay, I'm still pretty satisfied, but still looking forward to updates and fixes. The developers have done a nice job of releasing patches in a short time.

Farms = Food production. More food production = more people. Even a low quality (<10) planet can support at least one basic farm. However, as a planet becomes more crowded, people will become less satisfied. At this point, you either need to lower taxes or build happiness-boosting things (like entertainment centers). Generally, I build 1 farm on any planet 8ql or above, and 2 on any 15 or above. Any more, and you'll be wasting so many tiles on happiness factories that the income tax won't be worth it.

Shit man, just ask this stuff before you start griping. Unlike the FPS games, there is very little competition in the community. Lots of people on the forums have cleared up my questions and given me strategies, and all I needed to do was read around.

Just to add, if you DID bring up bug reports before that involve your complaints, post some links here to them so people can see what you did to positively contribute to the community. Perhaps they will have experienced the same issue and will follow that link to your posting, creating a critical mass on the issue.

This is yet another way you can help out positively even if you have "tried to before" and not received the response you were hoping for.

Sorry for not quoting, but the forum doesn't like me, it seems.

I have never right-clicked in GC2. I hear it drops rally points, but I use the button for that. Middle controlling the camera and left selecting things just doesn't bother me - RTSs have used this for years.

About industry, the game gives you *exact* figures for shield production (8, 10, 12 etc) and the capitol gives *exact* bonuses (x2) and the resource tiles give *exact* bonuses. Obviously production is limited by the 'industrial capacity' slider. How is this confusing? The most confusing part about industry for me is the constantly changing names for 'factory' and 'better factory' etc.

Farms provide food which provide the population cap. As far as I know, thats it, and I didn't read the manual or the forum to find that out. The colony screen clearly shows amount of food produced, the summary screen shows where it comes from. I rarely build more than one farm because population in GC2 is insanely difficult to keep happy. I honestly don't understand your confusion. The only time I've looked in the manual is to find a 'screenshot' key - there isn't one.

Name the points. Name the places. That is the only way that the developers will know what you are talking about. Otherwise that sounds like a "generic complaint" to be ignored.

They know where the manual is wrong better than I do. As a matter of fact the only reason I know it's wrong in places is because they've said it's wrong in places. People that don't read this forum will assume the game is just buggy. Again, it's counterintuitive to have to consult the community to find out how a game mechanic works.

As to farms, strategy may vary - as you said. Perhaps you can take a positive step and empirically examine the various ways they can be used and the problems that may crop up. That way you can again be detailed in your complaint and the developers can take something useful back to their buglists. Is this time-intensive? Probably. Is it inconvenient for you compared to just waiting for something to be patched? Probably. But by doing the above you will be making a direct positive contribution to the community as well as helping improve your own game experience.

Oh, so it's the player's job to test the game for the developer now? If that's the case maybe they should have given me $40 instead of the other way around.

I also regret I didn't buy the collector's edition, I don't regret the game... most of the time I read reviews and feedbacks online first before I buy a game, this game has a high rating, and so I bought, never regret it. MOO2 is a great game, GalCiv2 is also a great game for this time, and hopefully with the patch, it will be much better.

Also , my regret is, after I purchase the GalCiv2 game, I'm lacking couple of hours of sleep per day j/k... anyways... I have more control now.

The game is not perfect, I do have several ideas in mind that could improve the game, and many citizens here already brought it up, but I don't expect them all to be covered, at least a lot will be covered, there's always something that's going to be missed, somebody is always going to be unhappy. Tough luck.

I hope devs won't be pressured and rushed in doing the patch only to be half-baked, not wise at all...

Hey devs, good job. This is my piece of advise,
Please think and consider the many good & excellent ideas of citizens especially the players here, and take time enough to fully-complete the patch, while giving us posts on the progress on a regular basis... please"
Thanks!!!

Anyway, I've been reading this thread I don't get the UI, sorry, I know AI stands for Artificial Intelligence. What is UI? Is there an acronym thread here?

Shit man, just ask this stuff before you start griping. Unlike the FPS games, there is very little competition in the community. Lots of people on the forums have cleared up my questions and given me strategies, and all I needed to do was read around.

Again, I shouldn't have to do that. It's unintuitive and it interupts the flow of the game to have to stop and post, and then wait for an answer, and then go back to the game. If all else fails it should be in the manual. I realize they can't correct the printed manual but there's no reason they can't fire up Acrobat and correct the PDF version.

About industry, the game gives you *exact* figures for shield production (8, 10, 12 etc) and the capitol gives *exact* bonuses (x2) and the resource tiles give *exact* bonuses. Obviously production is limited by the 'industrial capacity' slider. How is this confusing? The most confusing part about industry for me is the constantly changing names for 'factory' and 'better factory' etc.

Except it doesn't work that way, at least 100% of the time. The devs have mentioned this in their updates. Something might give a 50% bonus, but a 50% bonus to what? My current stat, my base state, what? What am I getting a bonus to? According to the devs it might not give a 50% bonus, period, since they change the bonuses based on playtesting.

Here's another example, since you guys are so big on examples: Entertainment centers. They make the population happy. But how happy? Should I build one or two or ten per planet? Is it worth building any at all on planets that don't have a farm or a large population? Who knows, because neither the game nor the manual tells you.

My contention is that I don't give a crap whether it's a 50% bonus to my base or adjusted score, or whether it's even a 50% bonus at all. All I want is a correct number to base a decision on. If it's unbalanced, that's fine, you can always adjust it later. but it's absolutely crucial that people have good information to base their strategy on, in a strategy game.

Wow. Reading this thread has been very interesting. I have no remorse. I love this game. I think it is a great game. The mechanics seem clear to me, the game is a breeze for me to navigate, and the time I spend playing this game grows daily and yet that time slips by so fast...it has grabbed me like the original Civilization game did back all those many years ago! I feel for you, Heavensblade23, but I don't agree with you. Good Night.

And really, it's irrelevant whether you can tell me how a farm or an entertainment center works. It's not the fact that I don't know these things, it's the fact that I had to resort to posting on a web forum to get the answers. The specific issue is mostly irrelevant.

They know where the manual is wrong better than I do. As a matter of fact the only reason I know it's wrong in places is because they've said it's wrong in places. People that don't read this forum will assume the game is just buggy. Again, it's counterintuitive to have to consult the community to find out how a game mechanic works.

Yet you use the phrase "many points" in your complaint. Name the places and help out. Your resistance to doing so and your reliance on generalities are what is making you look a lot more like a troll than someone focused on improving the process.

Oh, so it's the player's job to test the game for the developer now? If that's the case maybe they should have given me $40 instead of the other way around.

You have a choice - like I said. Either sit there and complain, looking like a troll, or help contribute to pointing out problems with specific details. Nobody is asking you to come up with the code for a solution. Just make your complaint a lot less "generic."

You might also consider using the Galacticopedia located here:
http://www.kynosarges.de/Galactopedia.html
It contains a lot of useful information that appears in-game.

I don't understand why people (like the OP) make posts like this.

Heavensblade....You listened to people you knew who recommended GC2 and it ended up not being your cup of tea.

So what?

Do you feel stupid? Do you need to know that, somehow you're not the only one who got 'duped'? Do you think that posting here on the DEVELOPERS site will garner you any sympathy? Or perhaps Brad will take pity on you and fully refund your money?

You don't have a 3 button mouse? It sure is cheaper to buy one them than have to invest in a super-high end video card that many OTHER games require.

You poor, poor baby.