Like I said before, I like turn-based strategy and I like 4X. As a matter of fact, I'm close to liking this game, as evidenced by the fact that I like 90% of it. I just happen to hate that last 10%.

*I* didn't have to consult anything to play effectively. Maybe it's *you* that needs some dev attention.

Same.

The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the part with the three turrets in Half Life 2, and tons of people were getting stuck there.

I didn't. The game gives you a physics engine and a tool for moving massive objects. Use them

And by the way, I'd like to reiterate that I already bought the game, and I can't get a refund.

I know at least one other occasion where Brad has told an unahppy user that if they didn't like it, Stardock themselves would issue a refund if need be. The case may not be the same here, but if that's what you want, feel free to pursue that avenue.

and the thing that's best for their bottom line, is to try to make as many people happy as possible

And they are trying to do just that--but you seem to not want to let them, from what I've read of this thread. If you have a problem with something and actually want to improve it, get involved constructively in the process. Most of the specific items you have actually mentioned have been addressed, are in the process of being addressed, or have at least been mentioned by the devs as meriting investigation. But continuing to beat on the game and those who do enjoy it as it is does not help anyone.

I know at least one other occasion where Brad has told an unahppy user that if they didn't like it, Stardock themselves would issue a refund if need be. The case may not be the same here, but if that's what you want, feel free to pursue that avenue.

If I'd rather have $40 than a fun game I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. I'm trying to draw attention to areas I feel are lacking in the hopes of getting what I wanted in the first place: A game that I think is fun.

And they are trying to do just that--but you seem to not want to let them, from what I've read of this thread. If you have a problem with something and actually want to improve it, get involved constructively in the process.

I'm not a game designer, I can't make design decisions for them. I can only tell them what I like and dislike about the game, which I've been doing this entire thread. I don't know how design a proper UI, I've never done it before. But I know when it feels like a hassle to interact with something. You can learn the basics of a good UI in a couple of minutes. It just feels "right" and seems to "flow" together. Lessons you learn in one area should carry over to other areas. You should be able to do a lot with relatively few controls. Apple knows this and that's why the iPod sells literally 10 times better than any other mp3 player. Everything about the whole ipod trifecta of iTunes/Music Store/iPod is designed well.

Also, point out where I've beat on anyone who enjoyed the game. If anything me and the people that agree with me are the ones that have been flamed repeatedly.

The items mentioned in the original post:

1. Discarding of unused social production. This has been addressed by Brad--the choice to discard wastage was made late in development (thus the erroneous documentation). But they are not very satisfied with it as it is, only more so than the way it was before (which would have caused massive economic swings and made the game even more confusing to newbies). He and others have outlined some alternatives and the problem is slated to be addressed somehow in 1.1.

2. User Interface. I haven't had any problem with it myself except for the ship selection issues some have mentioned. Again the devs are aware and planning to address this issue. If you feel there are other areas needing improvement, and really do want them to be improved, it would help tremendously if you outlined just what the problems were that you saw, so the devs and the rest of us can mull them over and come up with solutions.

The game does NOT require a 3-button mouse. It makes it easier to look at things, sure. But the only place I can think of where rotation is vital (the ship designer), spinner buttons are provided to do the job for those who don't have 3-button mice.

3. Outdated Manual. It's a fact of life with computer games that the manual contains at least some inaccuracies caused by late-cycle design changes (Many games I've played had manual corrections/addenda listed in the readme or elsewhere). I can't think of any massive gameplay changes that would make it useless as a tool for learning the game, though there are a few variations (changed formulae and couple of dropped features). Obviously, the devs can't fix your printed manual--but there are numerous sources of up-to-date online documentation available if you desire to use them (again, as is the case with most games).

As a side note, very few manuals have laid out every detail of the games inner calculations for those who with a min/max playstyle, and the job almost always falls on the users to figure them out (Diablo II comes to mind). But not supporting min/maxers is hardly a returnable offense to me, and to most people. Especially if you understand that such internal workings are always subject to balance changes, and thus documenting them in a hardcopy manual is bound to cause more problems than not doing so.

4. Transparent Mechanics I believe Brad has gone over that in a dev journal--things tend to get muddied when balancing comes into play. The game does have many tooltips (such as on the planet screen) to help in this, but I agree they leave some to be desired. Even without knowing exact values though, the game makes it plain in most cases what items have an affect on what other items.

The game does NOT require a 3-button mouse. It makes it easier to look at things, sure. But the only place I can think of where rotation is vital (the ship designer), spinner buttons are provided to do the job for those who don't have 3-button mice.

Then how do you change the camera on the map screen? If I'm wrong I'm perfectly willing to admit it.

As for your other points, I'll stop complaining when they are fixed, simple as that. Hopefully that'll happen in 1.1.

I'm still waiting to hear if Citizen Heavensblade23 looked at that link to the Galactopedia. And to see if he looked at the link about the changelog that contains all the fixes implemented so far from the bugs forum - fixes that show the developers are listening.

Seeing no comment on those elements makes me wonder if they were even seen. It also makes me wonder if Citizen Heavensblade23 wants someone to keep trying to help him stay focused on constructive movement in the thread.

Buyer regret? No, not at all, even though I do have some issues with the game.

The bottom line is that I've paid for something I fully expect to be enjoying 12 months down the road, and optimistic that at least some of the bugs/missing features currently niggling me will be ironed out. That represents a much sounder purchase than 99% of the other things I've bought in my life.

Sometimes I figure that it doesen't matter how much a company tries to accomodate it's buyers, they're going to get ranted at anyways.

Well, at least it's not as bad as the WoW forums. Yet.

Yes, I saw the Galactopedia. Not what I'm looking for. Telling me something is "+15 economy" is nearly meaningless. Is that 15 points or 15%? If it's 15%, what is it 15% of, and does it stack with itself, or with anything else? If there's anything it doesn't stack with, what is it? I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall sometimes. How is it that some of you don't understand what it means to know how the game is working, internally? How are we supposed to report bugs if we don't even know whether something gives a 15 point bonus or a 15% bonus?

And yes, I'm well aware they've fixed a number of bugs. The things I'm complaining about aren't bugs, now are they? Is it a bunch that espionage is simplistic? Is it a bug that the UI is sub-optimal? Is it a bug that we don't have much information on how the game works internally? Nope, most certainly not bugs.

Can't say I am, but part of it is because I got the game for free from my old Drengin.net subscription...

Geez, have you read my post? I explained exactly how the game works...
Bonuses can be applied to 3 levels: Race-wide, Planet-wide or tile-based.
If that 15% bonus you talk about comes from a building you build on a planet, then, logicaly, wouldn't you say it affects the planet it's built on? Yes, you would and yes, it does.

If you talk about a 15% that comes from a mining starbase, then you're talking race-wide bonuses - it applies after tile bonuses have been applied and after the planet bonuses have been applied (planet bonuses also come from economy starbases since they have an area of effect)

Now, let me ask you something: Why do you need to know -exactly- how it works? Isn't it enough to know that the building will grant you additional funds? Or production? Or morale? The only reason why you'd need such accuracy is if the game was so hard that you had to balance your budget to within 1% of what you need - this game isn't like that.

You have a planet that's unhappy? build more happy buildings. Not making enough money? Build more economic building. No more space to build either buildings? Either upgrade different ones, research new technologies to get better buildings or get galactic ressources.

Why, again, do you absolutely want to know what everything does -exactly- ? Do you know how much a tank in C&C Generals has in hit points? How much damage in hit points its unupgraded shells do to another tank? To an infantry man? No? Why'd you need to know anyway?

As for the espionnage - that's been addressed by the devellopper as a point they want to upgrade in a future expansion pack. As for the UI - that's your personnal opinion, the majority of us like it just fine and like I said, it's -very- functional. It follows the 2-click rule. Click once, Click twice, and you got the info you need OR you completed the action you wanted. What's sub-par about that? Furthermore, all the info is classified in different tabs that are organised by themes. What else do you want? A magical wand that does whatever you wish it to?

Cheesh, stop saying how something sucks so bad, and start saying WHY it sucks. "It sucks because it's sub-par" Yesssss, right, that's a really good reason.

Am I flaming you? Maybe, I don't think I'm flaming you, i'm not calling you names or anything, i'm attacking your post - it's sub-par.

Why, again, do you absolutely want to know what everything does -exactly- ? Do you know how much a tank in C&C Generals has in hit points? How much damage in hit points its unupgraded shells do to another tank? To an infantry man? No? Why'd you need to know anyway?

Never played C&C generals, but yes, I could find out if I felt I needed to know. And at higher levels of play, that's information you probably SHOULD know, the same as GC2. Maybe you don't need to know exact numbers when you're playing against a simple AI opponent, but when you're playing on the upper difficulty levels, the AI will be optimizing its strategy every turn.

It's actually more important to have exact information in a 4X game that it is to have it in an action game.

It's only fair that if the AI has access to the exact numbers that I should have access to them too. As a matter of fact, as long as the AI has access to information that I don't, it's outright cheating.

Geez, have you read my post? I explained exactly how the game works... Bonuses can be applied to 3 levels: Race-wide, Planet-wide or tile-based. If that 15% bonus you talk about comes from a building you build on a planet, then, logicaly, wouldn't you say it affects the planet it's built on? Yes, you would and yes, it does. If you talk about a 15% that comes from a mining starbase, then you're talking race-wide bonuses - it applies after tile bonuses have been applied and after the planet bonuses have been applied (planet bonuses also come from economy starbases since they have an area of effect) Now, let me ask you something: Why do you need to know -exactly- how it works? Isn't it enough to know that the building will grant you additional funds? Or production? Or morale? The only reason why you'd need such accuracy is if the game was so hard that you had to balance your budget to within 1% of what you need - this game isn't like that. You have a planet that's unhappy? build more happy buildings. Not making enough money? Build more economic building. No more space to build either buildings? Either upgrade different ones, research new technologies to get better buildings or get galactic ressources. Why, again, do you absolutely want to know what everything does -exactly- ? Do you know how much a tank in C&C Generals has in hit points? How much damage in hit points its unupgraded shells do to another tank? To an infantry man? No? Why'd you need to know anyway? As for the espionnage - that's been addressed by the devellopper as a point they want to upgrade in a future expansion pack. As for the UI - that's your personnal opinion, the majority of us like it just fine and like I said, it's -very- functional. It follows the 2-click rule. Click once, Click twice, and you got the info you need OR you completed the action you wanted. What's sub-par about that? Furthermore, all the info is classified in different tabs that are organised by themes. What else do you want? A magical wand that does whatever you wish it to? Cheesh, stop saying how something sucks so bad, and start saying WHY it sucks. "It sucks because it's sub-par" Yesssss, right, that's a really good reason. Am I flaming you? Maybe, I don't think I'm flaming you, i'm not calling you names or anything, i'm attacking your post - it's sub-par.

This post is very rational and very clear and easy to understand. There shouldn't be ANY complaints about this not being clear and easy to understand, and if there are, then whoever makes them (the complaints) is retarded. Thank you, Gui-Jay, for staying rational and discernful in your posts even in the face of irratation and whining, we need more people like you!

And as to the creator of this thread, I'd also like to know this:

WHY do you need to know EXACTLY how every mechanic in this game works? Will it make you sleep better at night? Does it make you feel smarter or more powerful? Honestly, I thought that games were made to be fun--not comprehended until the ends of our lives. I can understand why you want clarity in your games and I can understand why you'd want to know (and understand) most of all the mechanics in your games. That's completely reasonable. But, to want to understand and know about the game (or any other game) to this degree seems very silly to me, even on the verge of ridiculous. And, just because YOU don't understand something, and just because YOU can't figure something out doesn't make whatever it is you're trying to understand sub-par in any way.

Heavensblade23 forgot to mention his graphics issue on this thread. So if I can get everyone to be sure they check out his thread called, "Graphics: What am I missing?" I know he will appreciate it!

Citizen Heavensblade23 is resisting every attempt to help him out because he or she is now comfortable with, if not proud of, unconstructive complaint concerning the game. He or she returns to generalities when asked for specific concerns to be addressed. And then, of course, he or she complains about anyone that attempts to help him or her with the issues that we have managed to pry out of the complaints that are sodden with epithet and invective.

When attempted assistance is resisted so strongly by stubbornness of this caliber, the stubborn entity must be given time to stew appropriately in the juices of its making so that it may eventually come to appreciate the olive branch that was held out to it at one time. Stew, Citizen Heavensblade23. Stew.

WHY do you need to know EXACTLY how every mechanic in this game works? Will it make you sleep better at night? Does it make you feel smarter or more powerful? Honestly, I thought that games were made to be fun--not comprehended until the ends of our lives. I can understand why you want clarity in your games and I can understand why you'd want to know (and understand) most of all the mechanics in your games. That's completely reasonable. But, to want to understand and know about the game (or any other game) to this degree seems very silly to me, even on the verge of ridiculous. And, just because YOU don't understand something, and just because YOU can't figure something out doesn't make whatever it is you're trying to understand sub-par in any way.

Because there's no reason for me not to have that information, and because the AI has it and I don't. The game was advertised as having a non-cheating AI. I don't know what else but cheating you'd the AI having information that I don't have.

This is a game BASED around information and making decisions based around that information. The more information you have, the better you can make decisions and thus the better you can play.

And then, of course, he or she complains about anyone that attempts to help him or her with the issues that we have managed to pry out of the complaints that are sodden with epithet and invective.

If my complaints bother you that much, feel free not to read them. It makes no difference to me.

I've made more than a few specific complaints, only a few of which have answered at all, and none in a satisfactory manner. Other people have done the same. Telling me I'm stupid, or that you don't like my thread, or my tone of voice, or the fact that today is tuesday, does not change the fact that I'm not having fun with the game. This is a forum for discussion, not a 24/7 stardock ass kissing contest. Some people like the game, others don't. Deal with it.

And in any case, the only ones that can do anything about any of my complaints, Stardock, haven't responded for whatever reason.

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I think I am through trying to help Citizen Heavensblade23. Or even pay attention to him or her any more. Like you said, Citizen Heavensblade23, I can feel free not to read any more of your bitter stubbornness. Cling to your unhappiness as you wish, but do not say I did not try to help you make something more constructive out of what is, at best, a childish rant.

A parting word of advice to you: spitting in the faces of those that are sincere in their efforts to help you will only continue the cycle of negativity you engendered here and elsewhere on these forums.

Well congratulations Heaven's Gate. You have managed to get the first closed thread.

 

I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I think I am through trying to help Citizen Heavensblade23. Or even pay attention to him or her any more. Like you said, Citizen Heavensblade23, I can feel free not to read any more of your bitter stubbornness. Cling to your unhappiness as you wish, but do not say I did not try to help you make something more constructive out of what is, at best, a childish rant. A parting word of advice to you: spitting in the faces of those that are sincere in their efforts to help you will only continue the cycle of negativity you engendered here and elsewhere on these forums.

I agree, I don't think I want to try any longer, and I don't think I want to waste my time with this complaining, childish person. I was patient, and I was rational, but this is growing tiresome, and I can no longer stand this person's attitude because it's obvious to me that this person truely doesn't care if they get help or not, they just need to complain and whine to someone. And also, taliesinangelus's advice is very true and correct, and you should take that into consideration the next time you ask for help or say something about something you don't like. I'm surprised you even got as much help and input as you did. The people on these forums must be really nice, or at least they don't only think of themselves.

Flame on!