AI Tech Trading

Aye, many people have mentioned this (there are a couple of threads on it already, such as here: https://forums.galciv2.com/?ForumID=162&AID=103148). Seems to be a common problem.

Kinda defeats the purpose of having 3 weapon paths when every single race in the game has every tech available.

Indeed.

Yes, I have noticed that. That's definitely a fix in the making.

Diplomacy is fun, but in this game I need to spend half the game trading techs to keep up with the AI. That's not fun. If you're in a war, you want to focus on the war, not trading techs will all your allies taking up all your playing time.

There should be a "no tech trading" option like Civ4 or at least have the AI trade techs a lot less often.

If the ai has COOL relations with another civ it doesn't make sense that they give up their best military techs for Sensors Mark II?

bah
trade tech with the AI. I routinetely outtech everybody cause Im always trading. Especially with minor civs they give better deals and are less risky. And teh AI specialiazes its weapons capabilities. I only research weapons after I begin to see which weapons everybodys going for, then i do something different.

Anyone whose ever played a civ game knows that tech trading is the best way to keep up. I consider this to be a very strong point for the AI that it employs the same tactic.

Give us options to reduce and turn it off. If you want it in, then you don't have to adjust it, period. Win/win!

I HATE AI tech pooling in strategy games.

Especially if the AIs will trade things amongst themselves for much cheaper than they will trade the same things to a human player, or even worse if they will trade things to AIs they would not even CONSIDER giving to a human player.

I don't think the AIs should even be able to distinguish between the human player and the other AI players...it should deal with all the civs in the game using the same rules.

Actually, the AI DON'T distinguish between you and other AI players.

That is a MYTH. M-Y-T-H MYTH!

Been playing my games on Normal (well, 2 games on Normal so far) and I have been out-teching the AI most of the game, save for a few weeks here and there. Usually I find I fall behind researching something that takes a while to discover, and when I find it, my tech goes up again and surpasses the AI as I research the less costly ones of interest to me.

And I am a stingy bastard. I won't trade unless necessary to the major races unless its an old tech. I will trade with the minor ones however.

Another way to keep up is conquer an AI here and there, if you can. You usually steal some of their techs taking over a planet or two.

if the AI did not have all categories of weapons tech,they would not be able to adjust their strategy to your ship building.You would know what race used what tech and could build ships accordingly.There would be no cross over tech for them to use.(Perhaps they should place a high priority for one type in the beginning.)Then the complaint would be how lame the AI is about adopting to your ships.
There is a feature to put tech on slow and vey slow,this might help out with this issue.

I think the role of minor races should be completely rethought.You should only be able to espionage tech from a pool they already have.This would slow down tech trade somewhat.Right now the only role minor races have are pools of tech trade and money.

Isn't there already a tendency for evil races to give better deals to evil and good to good?

If you were an alien race and you saw the humans getting way ahead of you technologically wouldn't you negotiate with anyone you could find to get techs and try to catch up? Sounds like a smart move on the AI's behalf.

The key word here is "option". I'm not interested in keeping up the the AI in tech by trading. I want to get ahead by focusing my income on research. Since the AI is pooling its tech, the game amounts to my ability to fund research vs the combined ability of all AI civs. That's not the kind of game I want to play. So, please give me the OPTION to turn tech trading off. Then, you can play your way, and I can play mine. To make another point, civs really shouldn't be trading tech unless they are allies with the strongest of relations. Anything less seems very unrealistic. The AI trading tech with another AI civ just because it's not at war that turn is just plain silly.

Hmm, I think part of the problem is the AI undervalues tech significantly. Perhaps if the AI thought tech cost a lot more, especially techs that take it time to research, and techs that they alone have, maybe that would slow the trend down some. If an AI is behind technologically it should solve the problem via trading for the common techs, and trying to whittle down the above tech player/AI, with an alliance against the player/AI. Tech advancement should be a large downer on relations.

Techs a lot of people have should be worth less in trade- techs, especially military techs, that are unique should cost a lot more. This would also allow the AI to adjust ship designs as needed- maybe not as effectively, but effectively enough- especially since defenses really don't come into play until the mid/end game.

To me, this is the 2nd largest complaint I have about the game, the 1st complaint being the bugs- which will go away in time. This is an issue with the AI.

I believe that's Civ 3's tech trading scheme. Dunno about Civ4.

But a lot of the suggestions to restrict AI from trading tech with each other is basically - we want the AI to play dumber. I think the bigger question is, do they always accept every trade they're offered by another AI? If so, then that's a problem, because humans will not accept crap trades from the AI.

IF the AIs only trade techs the EXACT same way amongst themselves as they do with the human player, that is fine.

But if the AI will trade amongst other AIs easier or cheaper, or more frequently just because they are AIs, then that sucks.

I just HATE the general dynamic of the AIs "ganging up" on the human player as an artificial device for inflating the difficulty.

They don't. They actually can't distinguish between humans and other AI player.

That is a form of cheating and THE AI DOES NOT CHEAT! (except for econ bonuses at levels above Intelligent)

Just look at the log: They regularly trade techs for ridiculous techs in return. One on one trades. Whether that is a cheat or just due to the random "good offer" Brad posted about, doesn't matter at all. It ruins the game in many ways: All AIs having the same kind of weapons and defenses, all AIs having the same weeknesses and strengths... not to mention the frustration of not getting ahead of them technologically even though my research is double or more of theirs.

No matter what the reason is, cheating or not, it needs to be addressed.

I think the agreement is the amount of tech trading that goes on in the game is too high right now. That's why I was thinking the value AI puts on tech should be increased, and the random tech trades should not be so generous.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, atleast from my view. I'm playing with AI on bright and on a gigantic map. We are halfway through the tech. tree and I have about a dozen different tech's that most civ. don't have, I believe there are one or two that another civ. has that I don't. And I rarely trade. If there is a problem it's not nearly as bad as CIV. 3 that I have played a 100 times and never was the leader in techs no matter how much stronger I was then everyone else.

Flat out - the AI's are trading too often, and they are making trades that they would flat out
reject if the human player made the offer. It also dilutes the diversity in weapon/defense
types that having different tech lines should create. Bottom line, its not fun.

There are two easy fixes that I hope get implemented.

First, an option to turn off all tech trade. This is not ideal (since all it does is mask the poor trading
AI), but its better then nothing.

Second - improve the AI trading algorithm.

For example, AI's should only trade tech to races that they are friends with. They should only accept fair
trades (modified as appropriate by diplomacy levels). AI's should never trade a tech if that is the
"most advanced" tech (of a particular line) known in the galaxy. This simulates keeping an "edge".
Also, there should be a limit to how many trades an AI (and player) can make. That is, they can only trade
away one tech every N turns. Perhaps AI's are more willing to trade if they are at war and are at a lower tech level
then their opponent. They could be allowed to trade more often with each other if they fall "too far
behind". Etc.

The above are some examples of some simple algorithms that could be used to get a handle on this.

Flat out, every minor race in the galaxy should not be at the highest tech level because of the massive
amount of tech trading that is going on between the AI's. Would any "major" race trade away advanced
military tech to a minor race, when that race would "know" that the minor race will just go out and trade it to
everyone else in the galaxy? I'm tired of having to check all the races every few turns to see what the
latest tech being passed around is.

I've had the AI make some seriously generous trade offers with me in games where I had some decent techs but wasn't the tech leader. If I'm the tech leader, they can't make generous offers, because I've already got all the good techs.

You guys are totally wrong about the the inapproriateness of trading good techs for "lesser" ones. I'll give the AI a good tech for a "lesser" tech all the time. Why? Because I'll then turn around and trade that "lesser" tech to 4 or 5 other AI's for 4 or 5 AI's for 4 or 5 other techs. So I can take 1 tech and turn it into 4 or 5 techs. I maintain a tech lead over the AIs all the time by doing this. If the AI's didn't do it to the extent they already do, they'd fall even further behind. The AI's are not making "poor" trades as some have asserted because of this multiplication factor.

The AI is only doing what a smart human player will do. So don''t blame this on a poor AI - it's actually very smart.

I agree that the AI players trade with each other too freely. It makes them all bland and indistinguishable from each other. I stay ahead by never trading away techs, not even to a minor race. I'll give trade goods to a minor race in return for tech, but if you give away any tech to anyone, it's only a small matter of time until all the races have it.

I would like to see less trading among the AI players. If they need some other advantage or adjustment to stay competitive in tech that's fine. I just don't like them all having almost exactly the same stuff.

" Actually, the AI DON'T distinguish between you and other AI players.

That is a MYTH. M-Y-T-H MYTH!"

If thats the case, how come they rarely approach you for trading purposes, yet share techs amongst themselves quite frequently?

Thank you for the spelling lesson, btw.