Playing with lots of planets - how to financially survive the first year?

Well, in view of your Metaverse scores and different strategies you posted here, I'm not sure whether I'm "qualified" to answer you   

However, here my 2 cents since in peacetime I tend to run my empire as a financial corporation.
- Ship more colonists from your main planet to the others, using a troop transport module (if you have it; otherwise use colony ships). Your main planet may be more developed, but its approval is usually lower than on the other planets because of the high population --> move some millions out so you can increase overall taxes without your main planet's morale dropping below 41%
- What about selling 1 planet to a distant AI (hoping to reclaim the planet soon thanks to your influence in that sector) in order to decrease that -260 BC and get some cash on hand?
- More economical buildings even if it means giving up some research. I have to say I'm usually a slow starter though; economically I'm doing fine, I focus a lot on research but in terms of overall production or population growth I'm penalized because I build that many economical buildings early on.
- Selling more technology to underperforming AI's (temporary "solution" but a few 1000 could help)

Now hoping for some far more experienced players to come up with much better ideas...

I have no real basis for making a suggestion because I still have yet to play a DA game, but I think you pointed out the key to the problem yourself in the following quote.


I would tend to agree with this. As Noctilucus already suggested, you could adjust this by building a colony ship or two for the sole purpose of "bussing" another load of pop from your home planet to your colonies. That would certainly help.

Another tack to take would be to cut down on the number of colonies that you colonize. Instead of concentrating on quantity of colonies concentrate on the quality of your colonies. In this case you would only colonize planets PQ11 and above so that all your colonies have the +10% approval bonus and you only colonize as many colonies as you can afford to build up. If you'd have to leave the planet undeveloped then don't colonize that planet and use the pop to add to one of your existing colonies.

I've alternated between both the quantity and quality methods in DL and they both certainly work although they must handled differently. In the quantity method you grab as many planets as you can and then try to survive until you can get them built up and self supporting. In the quality method you end the colony rush in a relatively strong position financially and industrially but you need to jump on your opponents fast before they can get their massive quantity of planets productive.

Whether or not this works for DA remains to be seen but I think it's a reasonable suggestion.

One other suggestion that I've used in DL is to only build economic buildings at first on all your colonies. Building a market or advanced market does very little to help the situation at first but if you allow every colony to build one or two economic buildings (which improves the economy and requires 0 maintanience) before you even begin to build factories then the cumulative effect can be noticable.

I've taken another tack altogether.

Very fast tech and put a priority on all techs that carry innate bonuses to morale and economics.

Of course, my racial bonuses are also morale and econ heavy.

And last, but not least, Superbreeders!

I've found if you put them all together and get a little luck on the galactic resources and survey ships you can skim right over the traditional late year zero, early year one economic hump and come out the far end with a huge factory stack. It still works without any one of the three above, but with some obvious additional difficulty.

Iztok, hasn't the income formula been nerfed in DA? This is probably why what previously worked in DL doesn't do so well any more; a marginal difference like that is significant in the early stages before research and resource bonuses to econ kick in. Plus the 250 starting pop is tougher, as you say.

I tend to take Superbreeders and build mostly econ buildings early on. Purge has it right for very fast tech IMO (and possibly fast or normal), but I wouldn't fancy my chances of pulling that off at "very slow" (my favourite setting)

After you build some factories (and that is what ultimately wins the game--production), you have to concentrate on the economy while you are doing the colony rush. This means you still need research buildings so that you can get quickly from trade centers to stock exchanges. Improve your morale buildings. Improve your govt to ultimately to star federation.

Early in the game research the survey function and go out looking for anomalies with money. I usually have 4 out looking for stuff. They don't give as much money as in DL. Usually 100 to 1000 bc. At some point I still am hurting and getting close to 0 and I have may have to temporarily ramp back my sliders.

Then build aphrodisiac to get more population. A farm when you get close to your planet's limit (usually 6 bc). With federation, lots of stock exchanges, and growing population, you start building up large sums of money.

But ultimately I want lots of planets and lots of production. But you have to do a lot of stuff to keep from going in the hole.

You might try fewer AIs if you are really having problems and make sure you have a good starting position. If not, hit Ctrl-N til you get a good spot.

Hi!
Thank you all for your replies!

In my OP I forgot to mention that it looks like I had quite a good start: right corner completely mine, with lots of stars and planets, the first neighbour in center. So I decided I'll colonize toward center, to cut AIs access to "my" space, and then backfill, just before AIs' colonizers get to those planets. And they ARE coming - I've seen at least 5 altarians' and 3 torians' colonizers heading into "my" space. No way I can cut them off with their speed 3 and range 6. So I'm still in the colonization phase, there are still about 7 normal planets to take, some of them over class-10. But I'm broke, and if I'd shut down everything but production of colonizers, and colonize those planets, I'd be broke even more...


HERESY!!!! CRIME!!! How can you even think ...

Now I know what "biting the bullet" means. Since tech-trade's off that's probably the only thing I can sell.


Yeah, they work on a 2B planet. My planets are 0.5B.


Yep, I have fastest tech, I researched Xeno Entertainment for 15% morale bonus, but for all-factories and me broke, are Republic and Banks a light year and a half far.


Well, 30% starting morale and 30% starting econ dont't help. I simply didn't expect I'll still be running deficit when I increased taxes from 42% to 69%. When I did that in previous games I usually covered most deficit, but here I just went from -400 to -260BC. Eh...


Currently that seems to me to be the only thing that would work, and keep me competent. The pop curve of the Torians is telling that - they're already at max pop (6B) on most known planets, and have twice the econ of the next AI, and ~10 times mine.

Looks like I'm ready for another test: how to do intense colonizing and financialy survive the first year without being Super Breeder. Dark Avatar, here I come...

BR, Iztok

hahaha, that dousn't even work in DL! On higher difficulty levels, the AI colony ships are pretty much unstoppable. And once a powerful AI race claims some worlds deep in your territory, they ain't lettin go of them via influence, no way, not until the game is at least half over already or if you build a legion of constructors for building influence starbases - in which case it would be far quicker to build troop transports instead!

Well, I usually don't play on anything higher than Tough, or the occasional Painful, so I'm free to cut out otherwise necessary things, like building significant military forces. Also, after getting around 5 planets I switch from transports to constructors so that I can claim mining resources. The AI's are particularly greedy when it comes to those, so I try to start early in that market rather than focus on planets; besides there are plenty of planets that are uninhabitable at first, which I am also usually the first to tap into that pool.



He he, I just had a thought. What if you researched invasion early on, built a bunch of troop transports, then sell all your peripheral worlds and promptly reclaim them? Is that free money?

In Galciv1 definately! but planets are virtually worthless in DL.

It is funny when you get that announcement that some minor race working with you has stolen all the technology of somebody and it says they are particularly interested in star systems, then when you try to trade them a starsystem, you are lucky to be offered more than 3bc for it!! rediculous!!!

Hi!

In that game I estimated I could out-colonize them, if I'd build some cheap colonizers (small hull with just a Colony module) on new colonies and take smaller planets with them. The AIs' colonizer wave is still significantly further from "my" unsettled planets, than my colonizer-producing planets are. So I COULD completelly out-colonize AI, if I wouldn't be broke. Even being broke I'm still able to take best planets, but I'd need to shut down everything but production of colonizers, and became even more broke. Sigh...

BR, Iztok

I wouldn't consider it as free money since you would sacrifice troops, meaning you're giving up some growth and tax potential early on.
I've never sold a planet though, so I have no idea how much the benefits would be...

Hi!
Like I wrote I did a test with the same race and the same universe settings, but with only one fool AI. The aim was to see if the over-colonizing is the source of problems I mentioned in the OP. I also followed about the same research and building path, researching techs that give overall bonuses first.

In the test I had better luck with anomalies (~5000 BCs collected), and I haven't built colonizers on new colonies. This allowed me to hold my pop at 100% approval for at least 15 turns longer, so at turn 48 I have 1500BCs in treasury, -190 BCs deficit, but all planets are still at 100% approval, and the oldest ones are already contributing to the treasury.

IMO the result is clear: the over-colonizing, esp. building colonizers on new colonies WAS the prime pit for my 5000BC treasury. Just 18 Initial Colonies generate 204BC expenses with their maintenance! Combined with the limited sources of money (no tech trade, sub-average luck with money anomalies, no trade ships built yet, and low initial population on new colonies) it has made a downward spiral that would turn only when pop would grow high enough to support expenses. But I'm taxing them 69%... It looks like I'd need ~3000BC more money to allow my planets to grow at 100% approval for 10-15 more turns to turn that spiral up. Trading planets will not give that money. I just tried to sell a partially-built class-6 planet to various AIs. They offered from 9 to 170 BC for it. So much for earning money with planets.

A short estimate of needed actions for future games:

• don't turn off tech trade if you intend to colonize A LOT (20+ planets in first 40 turns). There's virtually nothing you can sell to make more money in these early turns if tech trade is off.
  
• research Sensors and build a couple of ships with Survey module ASAP (when you start backfilling planets it's already too late), and pray they'll be lucky wih 500 and 1000 BC anomalies.
  
• Play a race with really good bonuses in econ, growth and/or morale. 30% starting econ and morale, and current 43% econ, 47% morale and 17% bonus growth, are simply not enough. The growth bonus seems to be the most important in the colony-rush phase. You can't tax pop that's not there.
  
• Turn off spending on new colonies, or build there only econ buildings. Not valid for high difficulty level games (maso+).
  
• Re-use unspent colonizers for ferrying pop from high-pop planets (in this phase only HW) to low-pop. If you have unspent colonizers. I don't.
  
• Don't play such large games.
  

BR, Iztok

Oh, come on, Iztok.

SOMEONE is going to have to figure out what is the perfect proportion of planets/colonies to try for in a 600 system game (give or take ~2%), to give the optimum chance of a win combined with a minimum chance of attracting an early war.
Who better than you?

drrider

What race are you playing with and what technologies are you researching first?

Personally I'm going for some of the econ techs first, add xeno medicine, xeno entertainment, then up to stock markets.
My race is usually the Altarians with maxed Economy, Morale second, research third.

And even then the whole in my pockets is sometimes too big to maintain my spending.

There is a solution however: Research sensors early and fast. Especially in larger galaxies with many anomalies, having a dozen survey ships really helps.
However, if the anomalies deplete before you have grown enough population, you'll be in big trouble.

Hi!

Arceans, 30% econ, 30% morale, 20% weapons (I wanted the advantage of first strike maximized), 10% soc and mil production, Luck, Technologists for bonus on focus to research.

Intended playing strategy: all-factories. Never played it, but it should be appropriate for lots of planets and fastest tech.

Build on HW: all factories, then focus on research and built each second turn a colonizer. When Industrial Capital available, converting one fac to it.

Build everyhere else: ~33% factories, rest Advanced trade centers. On planets class-8+ Starport after factories or the last tile.

Research (or what I intended to research):
- prop to Ion drive for colonizers,
- Planetary improvements, Space Militarization for bonuses,
- Sensors 1, built some Explorers,
- Impulse engine for +1 speed,
- Xeno industry(?) for Factory and +10% social production bonus,
- Xeno biology, Xeno medicine for 10% growth,
- Xeno entertainment (+15% morale), increased taxes.
- Diplo tech up to Trade for more "pluses" in relations, no free production for traders,
- basic weapons for fake defenders (most AIs already militarized, so I needed SOME mil score)
----- here I ran out of money
- Toxic planets colonization (Drengin already have it, there are ~6 toxic planets in "my" space),
- Xeno trade centers, upgrade old buildings,
- Advanced trade, built more trade ships for a bit of money and a + in relations,
- Xeno Ethics, choose Neutral,
- first, second terraforming,
------ from here on it would depend on the situation:
Peacefull:
- Republic for more diplo (+ in relations) and +10% econ,
- enhanced factories,
- Xeno research, Advanced computing, Basic miniaturization to increase space for life supports on trade and Explorer ships,
- more trade and diplo tech, better infrastructure buildings,
- morale trade goods.
Warlike:
- Xeno research, Advanced computing, Basic miniaturization to increase space for life supports on trade and Explorer ships,
- Basic logistic, Life support for better range,
- Medium hull,
- Impulse engine 3 for medium hull,
- better missile techs,
- defenses, lots of,
- Planetary invasion branch,
- Warp drive for +1 speed,
- more miniaturization...

That's about it. OFC I'm constantly adjusting that schedule, trying to follow the peacefull one, and at times fully diving into the warlike one up to the certain breakpoint: usually a target warship configuration achieved. Then I put in production needed number of ships (warships, troop transports), and turn back to the peacefull one, until next breakpoint in warfaring tech is needed.

BR, Iztok

Itzok, is this your typical research order?

Hi!

I'm affraid that will not be me: I call ~40 colonizable planets per player lots of planets. Am not going to touch 600-planets game, not even with a long stick. I leave that job to someone who thinks managing each GC-2 turn for three hours is fun and not grind.

BR, Iztok

There are a couple of other things I do different in reflection.

1) I let my diplomatic relations sink in favor of research that is more helpful for economics/growth. I suspect most people would be alarmed by how far I'm willing to let them sink. I tend to try to solve this by buying wars when it gets really bad, rather than defenders...If nothing else, I can build fewer defenders. For research, I push up to the first government that offers an economic bonus earlier.

2) Nine minors. You can get some basic cash off them in trade, but more importantly, they can usually supply the first three or four links in weapons tech lines before you have to take over the research.

Purge, I take a similar tack. Trading with the minors (and getting research and econ treaties from them) helps supplement what your explorers are bringing in during the "economic dark ages" early in the game before your front-line colonies are self-sustaining. During the early parts of my games, I'm constantly trolling the minors for money and tech.

Im not playing on suicidal yet, currently on crippling, but when you are trying to colonize that many planets, and are building all factories on HW, I would move diplo techs for trade and government techs up in priority. Get the freighters out faster for more income in trade until population catches up and trade is less vital. You'd be suprised how it really helps to offset the negative cash flow you wind up with when overcolonizing.

Also like Purge mentioned, each time I move up in difficulty or try something new, I tend to increase the number of minor civs. Even with tech trading off, having more minors to interact with = more distractions for the AI, and juicy self succifient planets they build up for you to invade.

Well I normally trade for the AI planets but I think some of what I do can apply here:

Your homeworld has 8 billion people starting on it. Do not build anything on your homeworld that is not an econ building.

Maintenance costs and PPs and RPs are huge cash drains. With 100% research and focused production I'm usually at 19 spending per planet.

I ignore morale at the homeworld and set taxes to 100% based on my highest less than 6 billion pop worlds.

If you're not going to trade techs for planets or play the diplomacy games then technology doesn't really matter too much. You need morale boosters and xeno ethics and neutrality ASAP.

The more planets you have the better the deal you're getting. More planets is more important than tech, wonders, trade goods, starbases, and military ships. Some trade goods like Nano Recorders make things more difficult economically. Aphrodiasiac is awesome!!!! It's more important to get Aphrodisiac if you're trading for the AIs planets as higher pop planets means you have to trade more tech.

If you only build econ buildings it's really easy to change between 100%'s on the production sliders.

So goals:

-Colonize as many planets as possible and get your population as high as possible
-Research xeno ethics ASAP and the terraforming techs

Build all econ's on every planet(except one starport at the end), use 100% social, only build colony ships, after the planet has a starport set the focus to military and churn out colony ships. Rely on research treaties for your research and just stay focused on Xeno Ethics, the terraforming techs, and colonization techs.

If you don't have enough races to rely on research treaties, I don't know! I'm just so used to relying on exploiting Diplomacy that it's hard to imagine playing the game another way.

I often wondered about this. Is this event broken?

Is that the number of Star systems in a Gigantic map?

I really like these strat discussions you start Iztok. Keep it up!

You will get over 900 planets on a gig abundant all DA map.

Regarding trading. I can usually only get a maximum of one or two useful trades in the entire game on suicidal with the majors under DA...But the minors are a different story.

One more benefit to minors. They are out there claiming galactic resources early. I have no problem knocking off a minors starbase on a galactic resource...I do NOT take their planet, so that I can avoid the negative hit on my diplomacy with majors. But who cares if you are at war with a minor. Anyway, this is one way the minors help me secure more of the galactic resource pie and if one of those resources is morale or economic, it will help get you out of the economic hole.