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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,182,781 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #401 Top
Allow me to quickly and quietly post my vote for multiplayer. I have a friend that I would love to play this game against. He looked at it, but won't buy it until it has multiplayer available.
Reply #402 Top
I just bought the game and i hope they add Multiplayer. it would encourage some freind of mine to also buy it and revive the old mooo rounds.
Reply #403 Top
This probably has been spoken of before, but I don't have time to puruse 400 replies and I have to ask.

How hard would it be to implement play by email (like Stars!) or a web based server game (like Laser Squad Nemesis)

I am talking from complete ignorance here, but it seems logical that a multiplayer system that doesn't require a constant connection with your opponent would not require as extensive programming as one that does.

I can appreciate the arguments against having multiplayer in this game, but sometimes I wonder how a game would play if i was fighting a human (in my last battle, my situation was precarious at first and would have died if my advarsaries were more aggressive)

Plus a system of this type would be easy for busy players to take advantage of since you can play your next turn at your leisure.
Reply #404 Top
AI games can do a jump from the shelf again if multiplayer is added later. Beefs up the grown old experience fightin a real opponent.

Reply #405 Top
Unlike most, I actually have never heard of Galactic Civilizations until II came out and Gamespot did a demo feature on it. That's what got me hooked, usually the words "turn-based strategy" make me want to go in a bloody rampage, but in the case of singleplayer it's one whole different thing. Galactic Civilizations II is my favorite sandbox game. Honestly, even though I love multiplayer in games even to me Galactic Civilizations is just too big for more than one person. Knowing the team they could probably easily pull it off and make it fun and even for both sides. For now though, singleplayer with over-intelligent AI is good enough. To add to this, I posted this reply while downloading Dark Avatar, a singleplayer expansion.

Reply #406 Top
Honestly I can say I'm 100% if not more.... >.>(it's possible) .... glad there is no multiplayer. The problem with modern gaming is we've forgotten how to make good single player games. Take Gears of War for the 360. That game has unbelievable multiplayer gameplay, however since I despise multiplayer that's of no value to me. I'm left with a so-so single player game. More and more games are becoming like this, having great multiplayer but absolute crap for single player. As was said in the original post a very small percentage of people really want multiplayer in GalCiv which means for all the money they would spend creating it in any form be it PbW or Play by mail would be wasted on less than 10% of the people who play it. I say we just drop it and enjoy one of the few remaining good single player games.
Reply #407 Top
Everyone needs some alone-time and GC2 / GC2 - Dark Avatar is a great way to use that alone-time
Reply #408 Top
As was said in the original post a very small percentage of people really want multiplayer in GalCiv which means for all the money they would spend creating it in any form be it PbW or Play by mail would be wasted on less than 10% of the people who play it. I say we just drop it and enjoy one of the few remaining good single player games.


Nonsense. Where do you get this information? The devs said that a small percentage of the GalCiv 1 wanted multiplayers. That in no way translates into of all the potential playerbase of this game.

Multiplayer is dominating the gaming market. Almost any title worth mentioning has it, including Civ 4 and that is for a good reason: No AI can ever match the skill of a veteran player in any game more advanced than chess without massive bonuses.

Ofcourse if you are a not very skillful player, who plays on normal diff level for example, then the option of multiplayer may be not very attractive. But I doubt thats the majority of gamers.
Reply #410 Top
Nope
Reply #411 Top
MP is the reason most startegy games have crap AI. The MP fans have plenty of MP TBS games to play with, let us SP fans have at least one title that isn't hobbled by focusing on the MP experience to the exclusion of all else.
Reply #412 Top
MP is the reason most startegy games have crap AI. The MP fans have plenty of MP TBS games to play with, let us SP fans have at least one title that isn't hobbled by focusing on the MP experience to the exclusion of all else.


That's a bit simplified view I must say. The reason for AI being crap in other games is that AI, with the current technology, cant even come close to a real human player without massive bonuses so if you want opponents that are really good then AI isnt really an option.

Also why must it be so that if a game has good MP then everything else must be excluded? Did everything else get excluded when they implemented asteroids? Spying? Ship templates? Better AI? Better gfx? for DA.

No it didnt. So now that there is both the main game and an expansion that has focused only on SP additions then maybe there is some room for MP aswell? And those that are so fanatically against it can ignore it, like I ignore spying, better gfx and ship templates.

Reply #413 Top
Also why must it be so that if a game has good MP then everything else must be excluded? Did everything else get excluded when they implemented asteroids?


Budgets are finite, and MP is a *very* expensive feature as compared to others.
Reply #414 Top
Budgets are finite, and MP is a *very* expensive feature as compared to others.


If MP is so expensive as all the stuff in DA then I can understand why it isnt implemented. If it is then why is that the case? The major component missing for multiplayer, as I see it regarding game mechanics, is simultaneous turns. Diplomacy ofcourse would not work the same for player vs player as it does vs AI but other than those two, why would it take so much more work than other features?
Reply #415 Top
It's not just the game mechanics you need to rebalance, though that's time consuming in itself. There's also getting the code to actually get the games talking to each other. There's limited connectivity already, so a portion of that is spared, but you still have other things to think about (will it be direct connect, or through a server? if a server, you need a server app to run it, if directly connected you still need to get a machine to process the incoming turns and so on).
If you also want to slide in simultaneous turns then you have another host of things to consider - what happens if two ships try to check the same anomaly? What if two players try to invade the world of a third player in the same turn? How does the rest of the game balance with a WEGO system rather than IGOUGO?

"The reason for AI being crap in other games is that AI, with the current technology, cant even come close to a real human player without massive bonuses"

Well, I've never seen an AI spam "crdz plz!!!" messages yet
Reply #416 Top
Yes, what you say is true for not having multiplayer, however like many playing Gal Civ 2, it'd be nice to challange our selves by battling agaist other pro players of the game.

I for one would definetly pay 49.99 for an expansion pack that only has the updates to make the current games multiplayer. If this expansion pack would be made, only the people wanting to play online would have to buy it.

Also I think it'd wouldn't take very much to make this game into multiplayer, you wouldn't even have to put in chat function, I'd like it if communication to other people would be through the negotiation window, then retards wouldn't ruin online play! Also adding a feature of letting people join into game later on as a minor race would be really cool! Think of the possibilities!
Reply #417 Top
also the game itself wants multi player

when ever you start building up a fleet around planets for invasion later

the ai almost always says something along the line of be thankful i am not a human player or you wouldn't be getting away with this
Reply #418 Top
No AI can ever match the skill of a veteran player in any game more advanced than chess without massive bonuses.


I beg to differ. My son and I had fun for a while playing Command & Conquer on-line with each other and with other people. We discovered that playing a game with unknown people on-line often resulted in watching while the other player executed the perfect strategy for the given map, which was difficult to counter unless you are willing to be beaten again and again and again. Add in the inherent instability of the environment - we have a broadband connection and the games still would crash -and it just wasn't fun.

"Skill of a veteran player" often means "figuring out how to beat the game", not skill. Computers play chess well because chess is a fairly simple game. Take a game like Command & Conquer, with multiple units and capablities, and it becomes difficult to create and AI that can play effectively. That is a big reason the GC2 combat system is rather simple.

Should we have to accept a dumbed down game for the sake of good AI? In a perfect world, no. But our world is not perfect. I find playing on-line against an overly caffienated 12 year old who has nothing to do but perfect his attack plan to be a little to much like work. However, I find the GC2 gaming experience to be engaging, immersive, and relaxing. To each his own - single player rocks!
Reply #419 Top
I truly think that a lot of the people who are voting for multiplayer are extremely younger gamers or at least they act that way. I completely understand your case against multiplayer and you are correct. Certain features that make this game brilliant would be taken away. For people who do want TBS space multiplayer there are several games out there that do support it, BUT they aren't nearly as complex and intriguing as Galactic Civilizations II. I really think that if the stardock employess listened to the people who complain in these forums all day, and (Who seem to be the majority of GC2 players, but are in fact the minority [I'll make that case in a second])they gutted out some of the inside depth of the AI and this game to add a play by mail pitboss multiplayer or anything other multiplayer system. That the same critics (Gamespy)(Gamespot)(Strategyimformer)(every other game reviewer) who reviewed this game and gave it a 4E game of the year award would after playing the new version of this game say "Galactic Civilizations new expansion pack has destroyed the dynasty of GC2. Then they would complain about how inefficient the multiplayer was." I'm sure there is a large handful of lonely kids who want to play this game with there other lonely friends, but they are no the majority of players. The majority of players do not even visit this website. My nextdoor nieghbor introduced this game to me, and he doesn't post online. I for one don't see how anyone can meet a stranger online and play a 10 hour game of GC2DA. Let alone I don't want to sacrifice any features for a pitboss mail multiplayer system WHICH YES IT WILL NEED SOME OF THE BEST FEATURES OF THIS GAME GUTTED. I won't buy that expansion pack, and I bet it will be even more buggy and the staff won't be able to keep up with the influx of complaints. It will become a paperwieght for a lot of people, and a living hades for the staff.
Reply #420 Top
I would only ever play this game with a friend or family member online, should it ever be available.
The only other turn based game I have played online is Football Manager 07 which is turn based (and i only played with my brother) and if the same kind of system as that is used I cant see it being too much of a problem.
I.E connect directly to the Host computer Via the IP Address rather then have to create a server for the games and keeping.
I would not of thought there would be too much work for a skirmish to be implemented in a patch this way.
Reply #421 Top
All I want is hotseat/PBEM play.

I don't care about balancing anything at all, in fact, I want it to be as close to single-player as is possible. Exactly the same if possible, including all random events/etc.

I guess LAN play could work if you had a setup with, say, four players in a line, all able to watch movies together on a frontal, central TV while waiting for their turns.

But competitive, online play? No thanks.

Basically, what I want should require relatively little work (considering I don't care about balance or further multi-player optimization) but would certainly justify purchasing an expansion in my eyes.
Reply #422 Top
First post, and I have to post it here.

Ok, so I'm not going to sway any votes I'm sure.

As Neuffy said, multiplayer shouldn't be about cutting down on the content of the game. I would kill to start a weekend game of this with my brother or workmates. Unlike other MP-centric games, GC2 wouldn't require 'balancing', it certainly doesn't need to be streamlined for optimal game speed. This isn't a twitch game, it's a strategy game. Keep ALL the features in it. I'm sure that anyone who plays this game doesn't play games online to win in the shortest time (See someones reference to 12 year old C&C gamers). Anyone who wants to play this game MP will just want to have a friend in place of one of those AI's.. and keep all the 'fluff' there.

At the moment, my brother and I are stuck playing large games of Sword of the Stars in MP over the course of a few days. But the depth of that game pales in comparison.

Birth of the Federation (Which has obvious influence in this game) managed to perferm fantastically in MP-TBS.

So, in short.. if I could play the game 'as is' but multiplayer, I'd jump through hoops for it.
Reply #423 Top
It has been said that it is better to do one thing well then two things poorly. The decision to not have multi player is a perfect example this concept.
Reply #424 Top
I did lay-buy GCII because it would be fun playing hot-seat with my friends, but after finding out there is no multiplayer component I am not completely disappointed. I have seen and can appreciate the work Stardock has put into singleplayer, just from playing the demo. I am not critical of the decision to drop multiplayer so far to develop a more rich singleplayer experience, and I think the game, from what I have played, is very well polished. I do think though that a multiplayer system, or hot-seat at the least, should be developed as part, or all, of a future expansion of the game.
Reply #425 Top
I've been playing GalCiv 2 for a while and I can't imagine it being multiplayer. It's higly enjoyable this way.

I won't be part of the "I want multiplayer" crowd but I'll be having an in-depth look at the multiplayer expansion if that ever comes to us.