Frogboy Frogboy

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,182,671 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #376 Top
After the next expansion, it would seem no sacrifice of single player gameplay, would come about through development of multiplayer considering Galciv I, GalcivII DL, and Galciv II DA all exist as single player expriences, and assuming stardock would continue to support DA as they have with Galciv I and Galciv II DL, I can see no reason aside from the polls to not jump into a MP expansion.

It would still be a very welcome feature. Perhaps in 2008?
Reply #377 Top
Will we ever have multiplayer, or was this post created to antagonize us with how cool Galciv2 would be with multiplayer?
Reply #378 Top
Yeesh....

I wish you guys would lay off the multiplayer drum for a while. It might be nice, but I agree with the DEV that maybe 5% of you guys would use it.

It should be enough for us that someone is making games that are playable. Have you looked at the shelves in your local computer store? It's dreadful.
Reply #379 Top
Have you looked at the shelves in your local computer store? It's dreadful.


Yes, I have and there is a virutal cornicopia of multi-player MMORPGs, RTSs, and FPSs. Likewise there is a plethora of single-player turn-based strategy games to turn to, mostly in the past, few in the present. So, why would I buy GalCiv 2?

What is lacking is a good turn-based multi-player strategy game with the depth of diplomacy, economics, and military statagies that Galactic Civilization 2 promises.

A computer game without multi-player internet support is a game that is living in the past, regardless of how well crafted it is.

I registered and posted to make this point: Count me in that 5% because I simply won't buy this game, nor will anyone from my gaming group buy this game, because it lacks multi-player support. There is a multidue of things I would rather be doing than playing a single-player game of any genre and scope. The entertainment value in single-player games plummets after the initial charm fades.

Reply #380 Top
"I wish you guys would lay off the multiplayer drum for a while. It might be nice, but I agree with the DEV that maybe 5% of you guys would use it."

We did lay off, from Christmas to Jan 8. Someone brought it up again, since I still support MP and the next expansion is nearly done, why not spend some time on a MP expansion, they spend all this time and effort into making the story feauture which would have been totally new and fresh, but thats probably as deep and expansive a project as MP, at least in the same magnitude or one below it. My point, DL is an excellent game with the patches, 1.4X is pretty damn good. 5 out of 5, 9 out of 10. What's missing in my view and of course this is limited to like you say 5% or so of us, is multiplayer.


"It should be enough for us that someone is making games that are playable."

I totally disagree, if the point of the game it to be entertaing and fun, then playability is key. Multiplayability is a key component of play ability. Just because some don't want it, but you have not one but two single player experiences, with not a multi-player option, well that's just not covering all the selling points.

Maybe if never becomes worth it economically to to do it. Maybe you just have to charge more, for the MP expansion. Maybe make the MP expansion just that only MP. I think the option is very valuable. Those that want a MP experience rather then just some joe user lol, will pay for it.

"A computer game without multi-player internet support is a game that is living in the past, regardless of how well crafted it is."

I think Stardock proved that a single player game can be very successful, they just haven't implemented a good MP experience in Political Machine. Which turned out to be crap. I can see why they fear it as too much of a challenge. I know Brad is a bit of a perfectionist and you can see that that quality helped make DL an excellent product albeit without MP.

The squad car without two dozen Dunk-in Donuts in the trunk.
Reply #381 Top
I wish you guys would lay off the multiplayer drum for a while. It might be nice, but I agree with the DEV that maybe 5% of you guys would use it.



If Stardock wants us to lay of "the multiplayer drum" they would not have made this post sticky, they would have locked it and deleted all mp threads. They didnt so it's probably safe to assume that there is a reason for this thread.

Also Ive yet to see a poll where only 5 % of the possible playerbase would want mp. You cant count only those that are currently playing as for sure there are many people who arent playing GC II for the sole fact that it isnt multiplayer.
Reply #382 Top
I agree with Frogboy's position, as far as I'm concerned if you don't like playing AI then don't play computer games. To me thats the whole point of playing on a computer, you don't have to search and find opponents that will actually play a whole game against you.
I've always been fasinated by AI, that was what got me interested in computers as a kid. It is true that AI will never be as smart as person but thats why Stardock releases periodic AI updates as weaknesses are found.

I really wish more game companies would take the same position, so many of them just don't seem to care about enhancing the AI in there games.
Reply #383 Top
I agree with Frogboy's position, as far as I'm concerned if you don't like playing AI then don't play computer games. To me thats the whole point of playing on a computer,


So I guess the whole internet gaming revolution is something that have passed you by completely?

An AI will not be close as good as a somewhat veteran player in any game more complex than chess not to mention that playing against a human being is more fun than playing against computer algorithsm, for most people anyway.

Having a game limited to AI also puts other restrictions on games. For example I read some post from a dev saying that the main reason that there isnt any tactical combat is that it is not possible to code an AI that is competetive in tactical combat.

Multiplayer games is the present and the future, almost all game developers has realised that. Unfourtanetely Stardock isnt one of them.
Reply #384 Top

Yamota, did you miss the part where Frogboy said that the Galactic Civilizations games for Windows are the only games that haven't had mulitplayer?

Multiplayer isn't something that you can just tack on to a game, and we didn't have the time or resources to put it into GalCiv2.  We had a large, loyal fanbase from GalCiv1 who didn't mind the lack of multiplayer, so instead of making GalCiv1 with new graphics and multiplayer, we added a lot more that makes the single player game more enjoyable. 

Now, we could have started working on a multiplayer expansion for GalCiv2 right out of the gate and released that instead of Dark Avatar.  But there was a lot of stuff that we wanted to update, and I think that a lot of the changes in Dark Avatar will make the game more fun for if we do a multiplayer expansion.  Also, some of the work that I had to do to make the custom opponents work means that it will be less hard to make multiplayer work (notice I didn't use the word easy).

Reply #385 Top
Yamota, did you miss the part where Frogboy said that the Galactic Civilizations games for Windows are the only games that haven't had mulitplayer?


No, why did you get the impression that I had? If you are referring to the statement I made where Stardock havent realised that multiplayer games is the present and future I was speaking in the context of 4x strategy games and specifically GC II and since you keep saying that there are alot more things more fun than multiplayer to be added it gives me the impression that you dont realise the importance of multiplayer.

I mean come on, having espionage is more fun than multiplayer?

We had a large, loyal fanbase from GalCiv1 who didn't mind the lack of multiplayer


Sure they didnt mind since they were happy playing a single player game. But how many potential customers, that rather play against a real, live, thinking, breathing human being than computer algorithms, did mind?

Nothing wrong with your computer algorithms, they did give me a challenge for the first 10 games or so, but I doubt that I would beat human opponents this easily as I am the AI right now. I played Master of Orion II months after I stopped playing against the AI and even then I lost quite alot to multiplayer opponents. That kind of challenge from AI simply isnt possible with the current technology, unless ofcourse it cheats with higher bonuses and in which case its rather pointless since then we arent playing on equal therms. Like putting a grey hound against a human in a 100 m. sprint, thats no contest.

Multiplayer isn't something that you can just tack on to a game, and we didn't have the time or resources to put it into GalCiv2.


Again I have not said anything of the sort that it would be easy to tack it on, rather that it is neccessary for a game released in this age of internet gaming. GC II got away with it since there are very few newly developed good 4x space strategy games around so its not like there is alot of options for those that wants to play a 4x strategy game with multiplayer. Which makes it even more frustrating that there isnt such option in an otherwise great 4x strategy game.

So I will keep hoping, and posting until either I get banned or you implement it

Reply #386 Top

I mean come on, having espionage is more fun than multiplayer?

Well, obviously not to you.  But there's also the asteroids, the different planet types, the custom opponents, and the ship templates, to name the other really big feature changes.

But how many potential customers, that rather play against a real, live, thinking, breathing human being than computer algorithms, did mind?

That's a question that we haven't been able to satisfactorially answer.  But it's suicide to alienate an existing customer base.  The old saying "Don't count your chickens before they hatch" is trite but true. 

Again I have not said anything of the sort that it would be easy to tack it on, rather that it is neccessary for a game released in this age of internet gaming. GC II got away with it since there are very few newly developed good 4x space strategy games around so its not like there is alot of options for those that wants to play a 4x strategy game with multiplayer. Which makes it even more frustrating that there isnt such option in an otherwise great 4x strategy game.

And I didn't say that you did say it would be easy to add multiplayer.  I was making the point that, from our perspective, we were better off putting our resources into making a better single player game than trying to implement multiplayer.  I would argue that it is not necessary to add multiplayer.   If it were necessary we wouldn't have had as many sales as we did, even considering all the other factors that contributed to our sucess.  Sure, we might have sold X more copies.  The key question in all of of this is, "Is X more sales worth it?"

Reply #387 Top
But there's also the asteroids, the different planet types, the custom opponents, and the ship templates, to name the other really big feature changes.


That's what I mean when I say that you dont understand the importance of multiplayer support in todays games. Asteroids and custom opponents I can see how it adds a new dimension to the game but ship templates and planets that needs terraforming? Is that really so important that you would sacrifice multiplayer over it?

But it's suicide to alienate an existing customer base.


I strongly doubt you would alienate the existing customer base if you were to add multiplayer. It's always an option, if you rather have an AI as opponent instead of real people you can still play a single player game.

I would argue that it is not necessary to add multiplayer. If it were necessary we wouldn't have had as many sales as we did, even considering all the other factors that contributed to our sucess.


Its not necessary in the sense that the game would fail without it, since the game has so many other good points, however I believe it is necessary if you want the game to be a modern game capable of meeting todays demand of internet cappability game play. I mean it's not a coincidence that almost all modern games that has been succesful also have had multiplayer. Blizzard games come to mind. You really believe Starcraft and Warcraft would be anywhere near as good without multiplayer?

Sure, we might have sold X more copies. The key question in all of of this is, "Is X more sales worth it?"


You cant only think about in therms of X more sales. There is also reputation to think about and future releases. Right now when I think about Stardock I see a company that makes great games but fail to see the huge impact that internet gaming have had on the gaming industry. That will change with the coming of Sins of Solar empire but thats not really a 4x game imo, more like RTS.

Reply #388 Top
At this point, with DA going gold, the only way for SD to screw up the franchise is to implement MP poorly.

I would much rather see a strong SP experience, even if AI was AI, then a crap MP experience. The only thing is the development of the MP experience isn't a path untraveled, it's not exactly pioneering anymore. It is mainstream and the rules and guidelines are pretty well laid down.

Of course it costs money, but you have to spend money to make money. Duh, the costs at the initial stages for DL, exceeded the potential rewards for a MP component, when they started to research DA, they found the same right? I would expect that the curve of respondents wanting MP rose but after DL is out, I bet you that it will fall again.

It is my belife unfortunately, that the "majority" aren't going to pick up a second expansion, if that expansion is "MP expansion" which the "majority" may have done so, if DA had been more about MP then, an experimental feature that didn't make the cut, as well as some additional community wanted tweaks. If MP had been the first expansion, along with community wanted tweaks, and the experimental features offered in a second expansion, then perhaps a larger share of the SP community that likes DL would have given a MP experience a shot.

Even if a second expansion was developed and produced with all the polish of the DL or DA, there is hardly an incentive beyond MP to pick that up, unless of course the story generator feature is workable, which is probably is not, because there is hardly anything more you can add beyond DL to DA.

Except of course, MP.

If one was to look at the decision tree, assuming there was one, you would see that Stardock took the safe route, and that they profited from that choice. So nobody can fault them for that. They made money, expanded their business, developed a good product. Alienated a small portion of a community rather then the majority.

But it's Bizniz, not pleasure that comes first. I get it, and majority rules.
Reply #389 Top
If one was to look at the decision tree, assuming there was one, you would see that Stardock took the safe route, and that they profited from that choice. So nobody can fault them for that. They made money, expanded their business, developed a good product. Alienated a small portion of a community rather then the majority.


What community are you talking about? You mean the relativetely small gaming comunity of GC 1 then you are correct. But you're not seeing the big picture.

There are alot of gamers that want multiplayer and a portion of those also like strategy games so by stubbornly refusing to implement it Stardock have alienated quite a few people that have moved on from playing games against an inferior AI to a much more challenged arena of people all around the world.

More over I bet alot of people have abandoned this game after playing it for a couple of months or so, not because its a bad game but rather because there is not enough challenge you can get from playing against the AI. Even though it is very well programmed it is vastly inferior to real people who know what they are doing.

DA wont change that, if you win nine times out of ten against the AI then asteroids, custom opponents, espionage, slightly better AI and terraformable planets wont change that. It will take a couple of games to adjust and then you will keep winning against the AI again. It really doesnt matter how much fluff there is in a game if you keep winning at ease because that will just get boring and you will evenutally move on.

Granted you will move on in MP games aswell but multiplayer extends the playability of a game vastly because it is very hard to become the best of the best and continue winning at ease because people will analyze your strategies, adapt and then win over you. That's called challenge and it will keep you from getting bored anytime soon.

Disregarding the unequalled challenge you get from human opponents then there is also the social bit. In almost all multiplayer games Ive played I got to know quite a few of my fellow gamers and that is also something you cant do with an AI.

The time of antisocial single player gaming is gone, enter the internet gaming era, its been here for quite a while....

PS Im not saying that people that play single player games are antisocial but playing single player games is by definition antisocial.
Reply #390 Top
"What community are you talking about? You mean the relativetely small gaming comunity of GC 1 then you are correct. But you're not seeing the big picture."

The Dread Lords community has shown a majority don't think that a MP component to GC2 is worth the extra $10 cost to cover development. That is the argument they have presented, and stuck to without budging.

I may not be seeing the big picture, and I am in fact very much for a MP experience, then continuing development of eye candy and flare and AI which would never be as good as a human player, but they're point that human players give up and computers don't have the option, although in some instances they do, i.e. surrendering to another race... they think that they cannot provide a MP experience worth justifying the cost to do so.

"There are alot of gamers that want multiplayer and a portion of those also like strategy games so by stubbornly refusing to implement it Stardock have alienated quite a few people that have moved on from playing games against an inferior AI to a much more challenged arena of people all around the world."

I agree, unfortunately they believe that the segment of the worlds population that should have the most weight in consideration is CG1 players. Unfortunate but fact. I think a MP experience on here done well would be the only game I would play for weeks at a time. Especially one in which you can take an empire and play an entire day away. In a huge or large galaxy map, with a turn limit of 2-5 min, and the ability for players to start faster then that, implementing that game play process would easily be accomplished because it has been done before. The challenge is re-writing the code to accommodate such a factor. I.e. removing stuff and expanding on a lot of areas of the game for relatively few numbers of people estimated to benefit from the feature. That is how they look at it.

"It will take a couple of games to adjust and then you will keep winning against the AI again."

That is what strategy games are about, unfortunately the dev. base seems to like it that way just fine.

"Disregarding the unequalled challenge you get from human opponents then there is also the social bit. In almost all multiplayer games Ive played I got to know quite a few of my fellow gamers and that is also something you cant do with an AI."

Unfortunately most of the people on here ain't that friendly. Unfortunately.

"The time of antisocial single player gaming is gone, enter the internet gaming era, its been here for quite a while...."

Your opinion.

"single player games is by definition antisocial."

And the anti socials' have no interest in entering any sociality or socialism if u will into GC2, again unfortunately.
Reply #391 Top
I see two things that many people seem to be overlooking: Civ 4 and the quality of GC2's AI.


1- Civ 4

Civ 4 has had multiplayer from the start. It was designed for multiplayer, with lessons learned from Conquests about what works and from Play The World about what doesn't. It seems likely to me that the vast majority of 4X players who absolutely, positively MUST have multiplayer will have chosen Civ4 (or SEV) over GC2 a long time ago. Conversely, all those playing GC2 have, obviously, chosen a single-player game over one with multiplayer. For this reason, I honestly believe that simply tacking multiplayer onto GC2 will NOT increase sales. AT ALL. The only "extra" sales would be from not losing those very, very few GC2 players who simply can't do without it any longer.

In order for multiplayer to actually increase sales, the multiplayer would have to be absolutely amazing, not just a match for Civ 4's, but able to blow it out of the water. However, this would require a great deal of work and resources, and probably an expansion dedicated solely to implementing multiplayer, rebalancing every single facet of the game, and overhauling the UI to make it streamlined enough to work in a multiplayer setting. The problem with that? That's the sort of expansion that people who don't care about multiplayer - who already make up a disproportionately high percentage of those playing GC2, for reasons I already stated - simply will not buy. In other words, in order to keep a few die-hards from leaving the game and maybe woo over a few Civ 4 players, Stardock would have to put out an expansion that most of their players would not buy.

Conclusion: Multiplayer might GENERALLY increase a game's selling potential, but in this specific circumstance, I honestly think it would not. In fact, it could very easily do more harm than good.


2-AI Quality

It's true that no AI - not even GC2's - is any match for a skilled human opponent. The problem comes in defining what "skilled" is. According to the write-up on "The Human-Drengin Wars XXI", only 5% of players should be able to beat the AI when it goes all-out (Tough difficulty). If this holds true, that means that 95% of the playerbase can increase both the challenge and the intelligence of the opponent they're up against simply by increasing the difficulty. For these people, the added challenge of online play would hold very little allure: if they're already getting whipped, why would they want to get whipped even worse AND have the person shouting "OMG U R TEH SUXZOR!!!11ONE" at them the entire time?

So "increased challenge" would only apply to, at most, 5% of the playerbase. Much of that 5%, however, would be content with finding a more challenging opponent by increasing the difficulty even further past Tough (even despite the fact that, at that point, doing so makes the AI start cheating, rather than making it smarter). By the time they can beat the AI, as Yamota said, "9 times out of 10" on even the highest difficulties...few humans would be any match for them anyways, and multiplayer matches would turn into a string of pointless beat-downs punctuated by the occasional really tough game.

Conclusion: This one is more iffy because it relies on a year-old statement from a sample game. However, IF that statement holds true (that 5% of people should be able to beat the AI on Tough difficulty), then only a tiny fraction of the playerbase - 1 in 20 - will even START to need multiplayer to find an opponent that is both skillful and challenging (relative to their abilities).


3-Conclusion

Long story short, the GC2 players - the players most likely to buy an expansion, regardless of what was in it - are both extremely unlikely to consider multiplayer a vital component and are extremely unlikely to get a whole lot out of the "humans are smarter" aspect of online play. About the only ones I can see shelling out money for multiplayer are 1) those for whom playing with their friends is worth the extra money, and 2) the top 5% of players.

Multiplayer is all well and good, and I'd be more than willing to accept that it's a necessity if somebody can put forth a good reason why. Frankly though, nobody in this thread has yet put forth a real reason why multiplayer, in this instance, is worth the gameplay and business sacrifices it would require.
Reply #392 Top
"It's true that no AI - not even GC2's - is any match for a skilled human opponent. The problem comes in defining what "skilled" is. According to the write-up on "The Human-Drengin Wars XXI", only 5% of players should be able to beat the AI when it goes all-out (Tough difficulty)."

Excuse me but that is utter rubbish. I dont know what you mean with "tough" level but if the AI doesnt cheat, and by cheat I mean bonuses to research, production etc, and play on even therms then there is no way in hell that only 5 % of the player base would not be able to win. Just no way.... and I say this after 20 years of gaming experience. No AI, be it RTS or turn based strategies, is anywhere close to beat an average player without cheating unless that player intentionally is trying not to win.

If you are talking about a level where the AI gets huge bonuses then thats a whole another discussion. That would be like pitting a grey hound against a 100 metre sprinter and then the sprinter needs only to run 5 m but the grey hound needs to run the whole 100 m. That's no contest and utter pointless.

"However, this would require a great deal of work and resources, and probably an expansion dedicated solely to implementing multiplayer, rebalancing every single facet of the game, and overhauling the UI to make it streamlined enough to work in a multiplayer setting."

This is an over excaguration the likes Ive never heard. Adding a multiplayer option would take work and would not be easy, nothing good ever is, but that statement is just so extreme that there is no word for it.

You do know that MOO II had a multiplayer option right? And even though it wasnt perfect it did its job. I know cause I played it for almost a year after I stopped playing against the AI.

And since GC II doesnt have tactical combat then it would be even better suited for multiplayer than MOO II was.

"So "increased challenge" would only apply to, at most, 5% of the playerbase. "

Sorry for repeating myselg but again this is complete nonsense. There is no way that 95 % of the current player base finds the AI challenging enough even after a couple of months play.

"why would they want to get whipped even worse AND have the person shouting "OMG U R TEH SUXZOR!!!11ONE" at them the entire time?"

This is stereotypical nonsense regarding internet gaming. Im sorry you lost and had such a bad experience playing on the net but I played virtually every MMORPG out there aswell as the most known RTS games online and I can tell you that very few people resort to that kind of behaviour. Specially in turn based strategy games where the player base are usually a bit older and mature.

"Multiplayer is all well and good, and I'd be more than willing to accept that it's a necessity if somebody can put forth a good reason why. Frankly though, nobody in this thread has yet put forth a real reason why multiplayer, in this instance, is worth the gameplay and business sacrifices it would require."

Alot of people have but you are so sure about how everyone are and what percentages of the player base will do this and that you are too blind to listen to anyone but yourself and Stardock of which you seem to think their word is the law.

The reason I havent commented anything about your Civ 4 comparison is that these are two games set in completely different scenes. One is a historical game set on earth, the other one is a sci-fi setting set in space but whatever. One thing you need to ask yourself is that if such an experienced developer such as the one for Civ 4 added a multiplayer option then maybe, just maybe there is a demand for it?

Nothing bad said about Stardock but I believe Sid Mier and Firaxis Games does have a wee bit more experience with blockbuster turn based strategy games than Stardock. For one thing they dont build future games based only on what their current community thinks. They will reach out and try to touch other crowds aswell and that is what Stardock needs to do with GC II, reach out.

Again nothing bad said about Stardock, Im very happy they are developing Sins of Solar Empire. That game seems truly revolutionary but GC II is not. It's a very solid turn based strategy games but without much vision. Mainly Im talking about simplistic combat system and no multiplayer support which is, compared to MOO II, a step backwards.
Reply #393 Top
"I'd be more than willing to accept that it's a necessity if somebody can put forth a good reason why"

No you wouldn't you would dismiss it exactly as you have done, brining an irrelevant comparison of AI cheating and labeling that skill.

"only 5% of players should be able to beat the AI"

Loaded stat. Here's a fact...

AI are predictable, and they are exploitable because of their predictability, it is because of that predictability and exploitablility that human vs human interaction would benefit the game. Humans are much less predictable, and they are also capable of stupid mistakes as well as brilliant moves. The AI neither,

As for a user base, you have no evidence to support the ridiculous claim...

"Conclusion: Multiplayer might GENERALLY increase a game's selling potential, but in this specific circumstance, I honestly think it would not. In fact, it could very easily do more harm than good."

Obviously if a certain segment of the market interested in a MP experience would buy the program, since the single player experience already exists there is no opportunity cost. I.e. you can have your cake and eat it too. Because you already have a single player experience. The only way that a MP experience could do harm to the franchise is if it was poorly implemented.

"That's the sort of expansion that people who don't care about multiplayer - who already make up a disproportionately high percentage of those playing GC2"

I agree unfortunately. However if every single player game company had stuck with that stupid and uncreative logic we wouldn't even be having a discussion because the concept of multiplayer would not exist.

"1 in 20 - will even START to need multiplayer to find an opponent that is both skillful and challenging (relative to their abilities)."

That is the problem, because once you identify how the computer plays and how to beat them, they still play the same strategy. They still are AI.

"Alot of people have but you are so sure about how everyone are and what percentages of the player base will do this and that you are too blind to listen to anyone but yourself and Stardock of which you seem to think their word is the law."

Agree, only problem is their word is law, what they should do is spend $1,000 on an independent survey and get some real unbiased figures, from the word on the street, and then have that survey group come in and survey the same crowd on Galciv2 and see just how different those numbers are. Not that it matters because they are going to do whatever the hell they want. That means no MP.

"For one thing they dont build future games based only on what their current community thinks."

Agree. Once you are in a market like PC gaming, there is little need to expect established customer base will be your primary source of sales. Unless you make it so.

"the multiplayer would have to be absolutely amazing, not just a match for Civ 4's, but able to blow it out of the water. However, this would require a great deal of work and resources, and probably an expansion dedicated solely to implementing multiplayer, rebalancing every single facet of the game, and overhauling the UI to make it streamlined enough to work in a multiplayer setting."

The MP wouldn't have to be absolutely amazing, especially since so few are expected to benefit right? Even a functioning hotseat mode would be better then nothing. A serviceable or fair field of MP choices would be all that is needed. As for the work and resources, they have already said it is technically feasible and they have created MP works before, though I don't know of any that were great successes.

I understand that adding new ship parts, and features, and economics, and spying, some of those things I've asked for along with the rest of the community but the initial game after the bugs were removed was very solid and in my opinion no amount of tweaking will approach the ability of a human player in resourcefulness, and cunning, as well as deal making. The AI's don't give a crap if they win or lose either, they don't gamble, they don't wheel and deal, they don't do anything except what they are programed to do, and in that they do a great but very predictable job.
Reply #394 Top
i agree the AI is predictable but in my opinion the only way the AI would ever be as good as a human player is that it will be as unpredictable as a human which would mean nearly sentient. One thing I have to say I have been mostly a RTS player, and actually thought TBS strategy games were boring. but pretty much Galciv and Galciv2 changed my wiew on that. Really how many have the patience to actually sit through an enitre game in gal civ with more human players waiting for them to make there turn? i know I don't. I play most games on Huge against nine opponets and trying to beat the game on painful. as I have only been playing on normal or challenging. I have played on line before got killed quite easily. I have tried playing multiplayer for civIII's expansion found it kinda ruined the game abit. I would like to also point out that in one sooner or later oyou will also get bored playing online espically if you lose all the time. Yes I do no that there is match making so you can play with others at your own level. Sometimes it is to make a unique game is to go back int the past to be original to stand out from all those that are the same. To say all those other games that have multi player. What I am trying to say is that it is nice to have something different than just multiplayer games all the time. Two more things I would like to say is when there is high demand then of course they will supply brings in profit and with all things you can never make everybody satisfied there will always be somebody who is not satisfied.
and second is to Stardock thank you for making such a great game I have fully enjoyed it and will continue to do so in the near future and espesially the up coming dark avatar.

From someone who did not like TBS games lol
Reply #395 Top
I mentioned in another post that over the last few years, I've seen a disturbing (to me, at least) trend in which games live or die by the quality of their multiplayer functionality. Many popular publications often emphasize multiplayer over single player gameplay in their previews and reviews, to the extent in some instances that shortcomings in the single player game are passed off as being irrelevant because the multiplayer components have so many redeeming qualities. I find this disheartening, because I love a good single player game. I love sitting down, immersing myself in a world that's mine and mine alone, to interact only with virtual characters and beings for the duration of my adventures, wherever they might lead me. Games like The Elder Scrolls series and GC have earned my support and respect for that reason, other considerations be damned.

That said, I will not deny that I absolutely LOVE playing Civ IV online with my friends and my "significant other." Allying against common enemies is both fun and rewarding. The question is, "would it be just as fun and/or rewarding in GC II?" I don't think anyone can know that for certain but Stardock. So my position is that if Stardock decides to implement multiplayer, I'll be the first to shout for joy and pay whatever is required to partake of it, but if they decide it isn't feasible or something they'd like to save for GC III (which I am assuming is an inevitability given GC II's acclaim, which it so rightly deserves,) I'll completely understand and will still enjoy the game just as much as I do now.

The bottom line for me, personally, is: I don't need multiplayer to enjoy GC II, and it's a tremendous gem of a game with or without it. However, it would sure be awesome if it were well implemented.
Reply #396 Top
I personally think GalCiv should stay as a single player game. Thank you Frogboy for keeping it that way.
Reply #397 Top
P.S.
My apologies for the additional post so soon after my last, but I already edited the initial post once and can't do so again (unless I'm just a dope, which is quite possible lol.)

I forgot to add that regardless of everything else I said, I would never want Stardock to sacrifice the features in the current game or in Dark Avatar for multiplayer. Those things matter more to me and make it a better game, rather than simply allowing more people to play said game at the same time.
Reply #398 Top
I would never want Stardock to sacrifice the features in the current game or in Dark Avatar for multiplayer. Those things matter more to me and make it a better game, rather than simply allowing more people to play said game at the same time.


What sacrifice? You have so much single player fluff now that there isnt anything left to sacrifice. The AI is as good at it gets (but still easily beatable), asteroids, ship design, espionage, diplomatic treaties, pirates, events etc etc.

There comes a point where a game cant go much further as just a single player game. But with a well thought out and well implemented MP module it can get so much better but the single player experience is still there so it wouldnt compromise anything.

For example they could make Metaverse a persistant universe with houndreds of galaxies to be conquered. You could have a ladder system like in battle net and so on. With multiplayer there are endless opportunities. The devs just need to stop listen to the negative nay sayers and just go for it.

They have already proved that GC II is a great single player game, now they just need to prove that it can be a great multiplayer game aswell.

Ofcourse that could wait until GC III but with the attitude of the devs and most of the current (with emphasis on current) playerbase it would seem that they want to keep going in the same old track with an AI, no matter how many parallel calculations they do, that would still be easily beatable by seasoned players.
Reply #399 Top
I just got back into Gal Civ 2 from a small break. Me and a friend recently got onto a Rise of Nations kick. We play alot of games online together and I got to talking to him about Civ 4 and Gal Civ 2. I have told him to hold off on Civ until he can get a double pack for it. Then I remembered people discussing Dark Avatar having multiplayer when it came out. So I looked it up tonight and unfortunatley, it doesn't. The OP has some very good explanations of why and I can certainly understand the reasoning of why it has been held back. I too do not play with the general public very often in MP. Even in RTS games alot of times we password off the room. However, it is sad that this may never gain multiplayer due to people generally not playing multiplayer.

My friends generally do not play TBS genre as it is usually single player and we enjoy playing with each other. Plus they much prefer MMORPGs over everything else - which frankly I am starting to get sick and tired of as they are always the same thing over and over and everyone wants to be the elves for some reason! O.o
I have been telling them about this game but doubt they will ever check it out if it doesn't gain multiplayer. (That isn't a ploy either ) I was hoping... and still do that the game will indeed pick up multiplayer at some time. But this is coming from someone that will pretty much always have regular sparring partners if it does.

But at the same time I don't want a whole lot sacrificed. I don't mind the combat viewer being set aside for it and stuff but I like alot of the open decisions in the game. Also, the events are just a blast. It honestly surprises me that so few people do not want the game to have multiplayer at all. I would gladly welcome anyone to play regularly with me and my friends if it did and people wanted to play. I play strategy/combat tactics(some FPSs) games as my favorite genre. Simulation and RPGs come in second.
I own alot of singleplayer games like Sim City and Roller Coaster Tycoon and such and I definatley enjoy playing them but they get less time and money because what I play the most are games that are multiplayer with friends. We are always discussing the new games that come out that have multiplayer none of which generally end up as TBSs because there aren't many out there. Civ 4 will one day join our list of games we play but I personally would rather be playing Gal Civ 2 online.

I don't generally come here often as any spare moment I spend playing my singleplayer games to get some time in on them. I may eventually enter into the metaverse more. I am wondering where I can put in my 1 vote for the sake of multiplayer though if someone can direct me to it. I am also wondering when the demo for Gal Civ 2 will be released so I can have my friends check it out and maybe cast another few votes.

Anyways, thanks. This game is great as it is, and I agree that all the "immersive" features are great for singleplayer but they do lose flavor over time. Multiplayer gives the game more longevity for people like me and I would love to see it come in still. I would pay 50 bucks for a good multiplayer expansion to the game that keeps alot of the random things in and stuff - keeping as much fluff as possible. I get bored with alot of online strategy games because of the 'streamline' things. But I am probably a minority in the minority.

Keep up the good work nonetheless Stardock. This game is fun singleplayer as well. The main reason I want it to gain multiplayer is so that I will be able to play it more often.
Reply #400 Top
I see many ppl complaining about the lack of the multiplayer part.
In my opinion a game like galciv should have a multiplayer mode and I won't buy this game as long as there isn't a multiplayer mode implemented.
Playing the game with friends online or via lan is the only reason for me to buy strategic games.
Why is it that hard finishing the multiplayer?
I don't get the point.
Why don't you finish the multiplayer part, release it with the next patch and exeryone will be happy... No more complaints and only happy costumers left... Is that a deal?