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Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations: The case for no multiplayer

Not all strategy games benefit from multiplayer

Galactic Civilizations is the only Windows game I've ever worked on that isn't multiplayer. 

The first Windows game I developed, Entrepreneur, had multiplayer. It included a built-in chat area and match-making.  Stellar Frontier also had multiplayer -- up to 64 players on a persistent world.  The Corporate Machine had multiplayer.  The Political Machine had multiplayer.

In short, I've worked on a lot of multiplayer games.  Moreover, I play multiplayer games. As was pointed out on-line, I played Total Annihilation, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, and several other strategy games a great deal on-line in a "Ranked" capacity.  I've tried out nearly every major strategy game from Master of Orion 2 to HOMM 3 to Civ 3:PTW/Civ 4 multiplayer.

From this, I've concluded two things:

1) Some strategy games really benefit from a multiplayer component. Multiplayer extends their "fun" lifespan.

2) Some strategy games don't benefit from multiplayer and the sacrifices made for multiplayer lessened the overall experience.

To people who don't develop games, multiplayer may seem like a simple checkbox feature.  Indeed, many developers I've spoken to feel pressured to put multiplayer in because some reviewers will give the game a lower score if it lacks it despite the fact that for most strategy games, the percentage of players playing on-line is very low.

But multiplayer brings sacrifices that many people may not be aware of. Galactic Civilizations II was developed so that multiplayer could be added later (i.e. it passes messages back and forth).  But the gameplay was not.  We were not willing to sacrifice the single-player experience for multiplayer.

I'm going to give three reasons why multiplayer does not make sense in Galactic Civilizations as part of the base game.

#1 It sacrifices single player features.  Ask any game developer whether they be at Ensemble, Paradox, Firaxis, or Big Huge Games, most people play strategy games by themselves on a single computer.  What % that is depends on the game. But on a TBS game, I would wager that greater than 95% of players never play a single game on-line even if the option is available -- that includes Civilization IV.

But developing multiplayer is incredibly time-consuming and expensive. In our last game, The Political Machine, a full third of the budget was for multiplayer. The game was ideally suited for multiplayer, published by Ubi Soft it would sell a ton of copies.  The game came out and sure enough, only a tiny percent of people played the game multiplayer.  That tiny percent didn't justify the 33% budget dedicated to them.

My favorite game of 2005 was Civilization IV. It has multiplayer in it that is as good if not better than any implementation in the history of turn-based games.  But what was sacrificed in exchange?  There's no campaign.  There's no in-depth scenarios.  No in-depth random events.  You can only trade certain items and techs back and forth no matter what.  Do you think this is a coincidence?  No random civil wars based on certain criteria?  No war-causing assasinations? No crusades? Not even once in a long while?  I suspect that there were a lot of concepts and features that Civ IV would have had if it didn't have multiplayer.

When we were making Galactic Civilizations II, we took a poll on multiplayer. Only a small percentage of GalCiv I players cared about it.  We took additional polls since multiplayer advocates were so vocal.  Same thing.

So instead, Galactic Civilizations II got ship design and a campaign.   I think most people would agree that we could have taken GalCiv I, slapped a 3D engine on it, given it multiplayer and been in good shape.  But can anyone who's played the beta imagine the game without ship design?  And when you play the campaign, I think you'll find that was worth it too.

Moreover, players get a lot more single player experience.  There are rare events that players may only see once in a great while but they're worth it -- a religions war that breaks empires in pieces. New republics formed from remnants of shattered civilizations.  Civil wars. Precursor ships found on worlds. Powerful artifacts that slowly increase the power of a given civilization so that everyone has to team up on them. Terrorists. On and on.  In multiplayer, this would all have to be turned off, but then again, if there had been multiplayer, whey develop any of this at all if it wasn't always going to be used?

Similarly, there's diplomacy.  Last night, I played as the galactic arms dealer.  The Drengin and Torians were at war and I was supplying both sides with ships for money. I then took that money and slowly bought up the worlds of dying civilizations.  That kind of flexibility in diplomacy would be a nightmare in multiplayer, you'd have to put all kinds of restrictions in the name of balance.

#2 The majority ends up subsidizing the minority. Outside some game reviewers and people who have friends who are really into this stuff, most people don't know other people on-line to play these games with.  And let's face it, playing a turn-based strategy game with strangers is an excercise in frustration (I am not sure I've ever actually managed to complete a TBS on-line without the other player either dropping or quitting prematurely).

Galactic Civilizations II is $40. Not $50.  That $10 may not seem like a lot to some people but to many gamers it makes a difference.  Check out the prices on the latest multiplayer strategy games -- they're $49.99.  Part of that price is to subsidize the multiplayer component that only a tiny percentage of users will play.

If there's sufficient demand for multiplayer, we'll do it -- but as an expansion.  Those who want multiplayer can then buy it and those who don't aren't forced to pay for it.  And everyone wins because they saved $10 in the first place.

Because of the Metaverse, GalCiv II already has multiplayer plumbing.  We even have a multiplayer design.  But it'll cost money and time to implement it. So if there's demand, we'll do it. But it has to be demand in raw numbers, not just vocalness of the people who want it.

#3 It would have changed the design priorities.

When you design from the start to be a good multiplayer experience you have to make sure the game is streamlined -- particular the interface.  So things that might slow the multplayer pacing tend to come out.

Galactic Civilizations has lots of mini-cut scenes in it.  Things to help the player enjoy and savor the civilization they've created. The technology tree is huge and designed to linger through and pick just the right one.  The ship design is full of extras that are there so that players can make cool looking ships.  The battle screen was implemented to be not just functional but fun to watch. The planetary details screens include quotes from random citizens and there's flavor text all over.  Each civilization has its own vocabulary based on who it is talking to (i.e. how a Torian talks to a Terran is different than how they would talk to a Drengin).

But a good multiplayer game has to be far more streamlined. You don't want to have core features that encourage users to do anything but move their units and make their decisions efficiently.  Take a look carefully at any decent multiplayer games recently and notice how efficient they are.  Efficient is great in a multiplayer game.  But in a single player game, there is something to be said I think for inefficiency -- for fluff.

And because we designed the game from the ground up to be a single player experience, Galactic Civilizations II has a LOT of fluff:

The screenshot below, I designed all the ships in this particular game. Every new game I make new ships. Why? Because it's fun. It's not efficient though from a sheer "get to the next turn quickly" point of view:

And what's the point of sitting there watching your ships battle it out?

In fact, there's a ton of things that involve reading quite a bit of text. There's a lot of customization within the game that has no "point" other than to let players indulge in the civilization they've created.

It's not that a game with multiplayer can't have these things. Civilization IV has the Civpedia for instance.  But the tendancy in a good multiplayer game is to move the text and other stuff out of the way during gameplay and out to a place where it's looked at at ones leisure.  And that's a good idea in a multiplayer designed game.

But these days, nearly all games are designed with multiplayer in mind.  And for people who have no shortage of choices on multiplayer, it's nice to have a good old fashioned single player experience where you can sit down and indulge yourself to the full experience. 

I remember a game called Master of Magic back in the early 90s. It was a great game. But it was only a great game because it was single-player.  The things that made it really neat would have been a disaster in multiplayer. 

And that's really the point -- multiplayer is a feature. Sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.  In some RPGs sometimes they're better being single player (Knights of the Old Republic) and sometimes they're better being multiplayer (Neverwinter Nights).

For those who think multiplayer is a must in strategy games I hope this post has at least made the case that maybe sometimes multiplayer doesn't belong in the base game. 

We know how to make multiplayer games. We had the budget to make GalCiv II a multiplayer game if we wanted. We like multiplayer games.  But we felt that GalCiv II would be a better game if multiplayer was not part of the base game. 

 

3,182,566 views 616 replies | Pinned
Reply #301 Top
Well the multiplayer voting poll is finished... we should see the posted results either today or tomorrow.

edit:
There's definitely an eerie silence as gamers wait for the results.


There was a new poll???
Reply #302 Top
Yes, the question was "Would you pay $20 for a multiplayer only expansion pack?"

There were between 2500 and 3000 votes last time I looked. About 2 thirds voted No and a third voted Yes.

Many people complained that it wasn't worded well, and should not have mentioned the price. I have to disagree with them I'm afraid. If Stardock have looked into it and decided that $20 is a reasonable price to produce it, then its fair for them to ask if we're willing to pay that amount.
Reply #303 Top
I did some further reading and it appears if Stardock develops multiplayer it will be the primary focus of the expansion... this has never been done by other software companies and for good reason. Expansions should include many new features not a single feature.

The expansion should include multiplayer as one of many features. The purpose of releasing an expansion is to capture as many sales as possible. Releasing an expansion that is multiplayer only will OBVIOUSLY produce fewer sales compared with an expansion which has multiplayer, a map editor, new content, a new campaign. An expansion providing many features would lure the greatest amount of sales. Obviously not everyone will use the map editor or play the new campaign... but the point of multiple features is that it will contain at least something everyone will enjoy.
Reply #304 Top
Ok, first off, GalCiv2 rocks. Best game I've played in years, and so much better than all the run-and-gun games out there today.

I think multi-player (MP) could work, and would add a lot to the game. Heres how:

1. Remove the AI from MP games. If a player exits an active game, they lose, period. Keep an account log with stats like 'games played', 'games finished', etc.

2. Remove the custom ship designer, too time consuming (again, just for MP games). Have a fixed ship appearance, you can hit check boxes for hull, engines, defense, weapons, etc. Bam-bam-bam, design is done. Ships could have a fixed class name, based on hull size.

3. Ever hear of a chess clock? Turns should have a maximum time limit, 3 minutes or so. This is the MAX time that a turn would take. If all players hit the turn button, we immediately cycle to the next turn, so that early in the game, turns would only take a few seconds. You could add some kind of 'time bandit' feature to discourage slow pokes - credit a few bcs for finishing in less than 30 seconds, penalize bcs for slow players - say if you take the full three minutes you lose 10% of your treasury.

4. After giving your move & build orders, you hit the turn button. You can now still review all the stats you want while waiting for slower players to finish, you just can't give any more orders. This will give you plenty of time to just ponder things on those turns where your economy is on auto-pilot.

5. Maybe create a separate diplomacy - trade phase, again with a time limit and 'done' buttons.

6. Integrated move, combat, event & GNN phase - info that everyone can see just before next turn begins. This info remains available during your turn phase via a 'news' button.

So, uh, did I mention how good this game is? You wouldn't have to touch the SP version. MP wouldn't take anything away from that experience. MP would just make it so much better. Please oh please...

I would gladly shell out another $40 for a multi-player expansion pack.
Reply #305 Top
damn you put in ship design and a campaign in place of multiplayer with endless competition ? This is a really good game and it doesnt have anything to do witrh ship design and a campaign..
Reply #306 Top
Well i like JonnyEntropy plan idea but as for junking the Shipdesign, it would be simple to fix while keeping it intact:

First make a ship designer sandbox off the main menu, you get access to all hulls and jewerly.. no weapons/engines etc. so you can make them look cool then jsut slap weapons and stuff on em when you play.

Second make it so if you quick the ship designer mid design it remains that way next time you come in. That way if you finish early you can spec out that new battleship and if the turn ends then you can pop ut make a few moves and then continue.

I would like that above idea in single player

I could care less if less people on the poll selected we want multiplayer then single player.. i will pay for itjust bring it the heck out! No matter how good AI is.. and this AI is damn good.. playing with humans is sooooo much better.

Ohh yeah dont let gheyspy trick you into using their CRAP! just have it direct ip or bvasic server browser, just avoid ghey/lamespy!
Reply #307 Top
I could care less if less people on the poll selected we want multiplayer then single player.. i will pay for itjust bring it the heck out! No matter how good AI is.. and this AI is damn good.. playing with humans is sooooo much better.


I completely agree... the replay value of the game increases by ten times with multiplayer because with AI opponents gamers eventually discover their script patterns which reveal weaknesses. Usually Stardock has released poll information immediately once the poll was finished.... this multiplayer poll is the first one where they've taken their time.

I believe this delay to be a good sign... because if it was bad news, being the expansions would have no multiplayer then Stardock would have posted and nothing more could be discussed. However I believe enough votes for multiplayer arrived for Stardock to actually recognize the demand is strong enough... and they are taking their time because they have to make a statement which won't upset anyone.

Final Conclusion... as I mentioned earlier... The expansion should include multiplayer as one of many game expansion features. The purpose of releasing an expansion is to capture as many sales as possible. An expansion providing many features would lure the greatest amount of sales. Obviously not everyone will use the map editor or play the new campaign... but the point of multiple features is that it will contain at least something everyone will enjoy.




Reply #308 Top

Amazing.... we're still waiting on the results of the multiplayer POLL !
Stardock even released the poll results for the patch .... yet nothing for the multiplayer POLL which was the one before. The multiplayer poll results and comments is the most important POLL for so many of us wanting multiplayer... hopefully we'll hear something soon !
Reply #309 Top

Amazing.... we're still waiting on the results of the multiplayer POLL !
Stardock even released the poll results for the patch .... yet nothing for the multiplayer POLL which was the one before. The multiplayer poll results and comments is the most important POLL for so many of us wanting multiplayer... hopefully we'll hear something soon !
Reply #310 Top
Yeah, that means it's either really good news or really bad news. Perhaps they're afraid of ruffling a few feathers with their decision.
Reply #311 Top
Dont feel like reading all these post so does that meant there will never be any multiplayer
Reply #312 Top
Mh looks like our chances for playing lan multiplayer go down. I really like GC2 and modding it, but i don't know what to do with the game when there will be no MP in the future. In my opinion there is no really challenge in SP games and it is huge difference between playing alone or with friends!
Reply #313 Top
The PLAN to make everyone happy:


We have 5 slots. Multiplayer would eat up at least 3 of those slots...


Release the first expansion which provides Hotseat as one of the features since a funky workaround already exists that would be only 1 slot... 2 slots if you guys drink heavily at work. This leaves at least 3 slots for new game features.... which allows you to not only keep MP gamers happy, but also make existing SP_only gamers happy as well !!
The second expansion can do LAN multiplayer which would be another 2 slots leaving 3 slots for new game features. And because this will increase your gaming community your sales will increase as well making everyone happy.

The PLAN to make everyone happy !!!
Reply #314 Top
Please add MP .. that would make the game so great! So many of my friends did not buy the game because of no MP support..
Reply #315 Top
If your friends didn't buy the game because of no Multiplayer they're missing out. I'm having a blast with the single player and I really don't miss it a bit. I
Reply #316 Top
I think there is a commercial reality appearing now that has not really been a factor before. The On Line 'Community' in general is growing exponentially, in the days of old - geeez that make me feel ready for da grave - the only mechanism was dial up. Forget any decent 'experience' with that ....

From late last year onwards the on line numbers with quality bandwidth has become a real potent Marketing factor, and the penetration of Homes with Internet access has rocketed. Its now the 'norm', not just the 'geeks' of 3/4 years ago or more. The Culture change is profound, and more use of the Internet is being made without hesitation or thought. On Line gaming is without doubt one of The Growth parts of the Web.

So is it worth it right now ..... probably in a commercial sense no ... I reckon you'd need to charge around $20 a pop for a multiplayer bolt on to recoup costs and make a sensible profit. However, for - say, GalCiv III (we can all dream lol) mutliplayer will be a must, it will be "expected" and "the norm". The ability not to play multiplayer varients on line with friends on line in circa 18 months will be a Marketing Killer.

The emotional/feature case from gamers for Multi Player is easy to make, but as was pointed out originally, the commercials have to make sense. Right now for this game Single Player will generate more return per $ invested than Multi-Player. In circa 18 months the Market dynamics will have changed - Multi Player will be a must, so planning for GalCiv III should be done with MultiPlayer options built in.

But right now, stick with Single Player, build up the features, and that then gives time and space for the first GalCiv MultiPlayer to be a Polished quality offering not a rushed bolt on.

Regards
Zy
Reply #317 Top
NTJedi's repeated posts already consume 15 slots. No further expansions of your spam please.

IIRC Brad Wardell already proposed somewhere to include hotseat FOR FREE in late 2006.

Since you guys always post here that you are willing to pay for it......he prolly smells cash and changed his mind.
Thanks.


Reply #318 Top
NTJedi's repeated posts already consume 15 slots.
IIRC Brad Wardell already proposed somewhere to include hotseat FOR FREE in late 2006.

Since you guys always post here that you are willing to pay for it......he prolly smells cash and changed his mind.


I reply when there's a need to explain my opinion and/or reply when someone responds to me. Since you took the time to notice me I'll be polite and reply. Anytime a terrific game appears which is lacking an important feature, gamers which use that feature will voice their suggestions on the forums.

Even just Hotseat would make a good percentage of gamers happy. Also special thanks to everyone who has posted making this one of the most popular topics on the forum.
Reply #319 Top
I think after 1.2, modding will really take off, which will do a lot for the community and the replayability of the game. I don't think multiplayer should be a high priority right now, but something interesting I would like to see is a kind of Galactic Campaign for everyone to take part in.

Lets say an event is organized, (Terran vs Drengin for example), and each player who finishes a game uploads it. Someone takes all the data, and uses it to show how much the 'winner' has advanced compared to the loser, creating a kind of online story. Future campaigns can take the result into account. Something similar to this is done with Warhammer 40K tabletop games. There could be different divisions for each difficulty level.
Reply #320 Top
I hate when devs get "forced" into MP by whining fans. I'd rather have a dedicated SP game. There are plenty of MP games out there.
Reply #321 Top
I hate when devs get "forced" into MP by whining fans. I'd rather have a dedicated SP game. There are plenty of MP games out there.


Well, the poll results showed that two thirds of the forum members didn't care about multiplayer. Based on that fact alone, the developers should be less inclined to spend the time on it regardless whether a vocal portion of that minority keep trying to justify why they think that it is worthwhile.
Reply #322 Top
One small thing to be remembered. This game lacks multiplayer and due to this fact many 4x players preferring multpilayer did not buy it. They don't post on these forums but still they are prospective buyers.
Reply #323 Top

One small thing to be remembered. This game lacks multiplayer and due to this fact many 4x players preferring multpilayer did not buy it. They don't post on these forums but still they are prospective buyers.


Exactly... how many multiplayer gamers will be visiting a singleplayer game website to vote? Stardock should consider all potential customers not just those from this singleplayer fishbowl. I'm one of the few which visit and comment since I do both multiplayer and singleplayer, but I don't buy games which are missing multiplayer. From what I've been reading this game is great and I will gladly buy the full copy and expansion when multiplayer is made available.

Another unfortunate decision Stardock has made is that if they add multiplayer it will be an ALL or NOTHING multiplayer package. So instead of Stardock spending 1.5 slots to add Hotseat and PBEM they feel the need to add everything multiplayer which means Hotseat, LAN, Online, PBEM, Multiplayer Diplomacy features, Multiplayer in_game chats, and multiplayer game balance for a total of 4 out of 5 slots.

Hotseat and PBEM would satisfy at least 70% of those asking for multiplayer !
Reply #324 Top
I am on the bandwagon that I am glad they did not do an online feature and instead spent it on the AI and complexity. This was the only reason I bought the game and normally do not play strategy games as they tend to have a boring and dumb AI.

And for the next release I would keep focusing on the AI as it is good, but it can be pushed even farther. I want an AI that is as ruthless as a human. Like making peace just to steal money/technology and then attacking them two turns later or bringing your ships to a few (or all) of their planets and then taking them all at one time. I do that a lot since I hate when they surrender to my enemey.
Reply #325 Top
I want an AI that is as ruthless as a human.


Reading that sentence clearly shows you want an equal or near equal opponent... this will not happen with AI opponents only human opponents.

If you know any computer programming you will know that this type of AI will not happen within our lifetime. It will be unlikely even your grandchildren would see this type of AI within a game.
Unfortunately most gaming companies, developers and publishers are focusing on graphics... it's nice Stardock has given more effort than most companies on the AI.