I don't know if my chiming in will be considered appropriate as I'm not a Journeyman, but I submit this for your consideration.

It seems to me there are two issues: 1) What should the reward criteria be: download quantity, ratings, judged quality ala GUI-Olympics, etc. 2) What is trying to be accomplished.

As for #1, I would say only two things: There ought to be some kind of historical consideration, to reward people who have already contributed and have hundreds of thousands if not millions of downloads. Those people definitely deserver recognition, and something that only takes into account "downloads over this three month period" doesn't do that. Secondly, it has to be a separate competition for those people, because if the awards are download based, and historical downloads are taken into account, no one new will ever win, since they cannot make up a two or three year headstart. New people who are doing quality or popular work (or whatever criteria is decided upon) should also be recognized, even though they could not compete in download count with someone like Apocalypse_67.

Regarding #2, with the talk of the competition being open to "skinners who are also subscribers" makes me wonder what the point is. If it's to reward subscribers, that's one thing. But if it's to reward people who are supporting the site, I would say that their subscriber status is totally irrelevant. If someone is producing quality work that gets downloads, THAT is supporting the site. It generates traffic, and interest, and that is what produces subscribers. It's the content... the people who are producing the content are supporting the site. Suppose someone like Tiggz wasn't a subscriber (I have no clue if he is or not) Who brings in more money to the site, "Bob" with his individual subscription, or Tiggz because of the people who have subscribed to get his content? Rewarding only skinners who have paid subscription money reminds me of the Vietnam area when we drafted young men to fight before they were old enough to vote. If someone's content is good enough to be accepted/published/win the contest or whatever, is it fair to use their content, but to keep them from the rewards.

I'm not trying to sound ungrateful.. I think the concept overall is a very nice gesture. In fact, I was under the impression Frogboy had said WC hemmoraged a lot of money on a monthly basis, and thus I didn't think anything like this was remotely feasible.

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded. I'll hush up now. Cheers...

In fact, I was under the impression Frogboy had said WC hemmoraged a lot of money on a monthly basis, and thus I didn't think anything like this was remotely feasible.

Apart from some spelling, this is entirely true.  The intention of this proposal is to promote further subscriptions to allay this deficit.

To do this it's appropriate that the recipient of contribution income be themselves a contributor aka subscriber else it tends to defeat the purpose.

Retrospectivity with regards to skinning content will disadvantage those newcomers to the site and thus dissuade them from participating/subscribing, as it's impractical for them to expect to catch up to the prolific skinners of the likes of Adni18, etc.

DL counts over a specific [perhaps hidden] time period would work quite well, however I'm of the opinion that 'attractant' titles such as 'Longhorn Luna XP' Beatnik skin should be filtered for exclusion as they are honey-pot terms that have no bearing on the standard of work what-so-ever but are used purely to generate download counts by those who have issues of aberrant ego.

Pre-occupation with Download counts is not in itself something that ought to be rewarded.  High DL count incidental to skin standard should be the criteria.

Hopefully, however, people will see Frogboy's proposal as a 'thankyou' gift, not a case for argument and dissention.

The concept is [to use Frogboy's fave saying] that "a rising tide lifts all boats"......with increases to subscription numbers 'can' come increases to recompense for those who help make Wincustomize.com what it is...

Hopefully, however, people will see Frogboy's proposal as a 'thankyou' gift, not a case for argument and dissention.

I so agree...well said!

>The intention of this proposal is to promote further subscriptions
>to allay this deficit.

Encouraging further subscriptions is a laudable and necessary goal. However, by targeting skinners as the pool from which to obtain additional subscriptions, it strikes me somewhat as double-dipping.

>To do this it's appropriate that the recipient of contribution
>income be themselves a contributor aka subscriber else it tends to
>defeat the purpose.

I guess that's it. I don't think it is appropriate because those people already ARE contributing. "Give us the product of your labors so that our site can have something to offer, oh yeah and your money too." Wouldn't a more appropriate base be those people who are NOT contributing skinners? Already there is a download limit for people who are neither skinners nor OD.Net owners nor financial contributors. Mabey the incentive for subscribing, or disincentive for not, needs to be enhanced somehow. The true solution is probably complicated. I personally would have no ethical problem with eliminating parasites by saying "You can download nothing but Screenshots, wallpapers and bootskins if you're not a subscriber. Subscription fees are waived for significant contributors of content."

Frogboy's proposal, if implemented fairly, will indeed be a nice "thank you" and I share your hope that people will see that. But I imagine that, as with anytime that money or competition is involved, there will inevitably be arguments...

I just think that the way it's currently being thought of, making the subscription a pre-requisite for receiving "appreciation" for their skins, sends the message that the skinner's work product isn't really valued, that only the money they pay has real significance. To continue my Tiggz reference from before, if I were the operator of a site like this, I would be so glad to be getting Tiggz' work that I wouldn't feel comfortable asking him for money, too. But mabey that's just me.

As for myself, I don't think monetary rewards are necessary. I'm not doing it for the money. I'd be just as happy if they made announcements, or just gave out free premium skins or OD subscriptions or something if they wanted it to be more tangible.

Will Rose....so often people ascribe a disproportionate 'value' to the skinners' contribution via submitted content and forget it is actually a true symbiotic relationship.

Certainly Wincustomize needs the content but it's important to remember that by and large, skinners also need the public exposure only sites such as Wincustomize can offer.

I know that were I to have a private site of my own I'd be hardly likely to have over a thousand 'reg'd users' accessing it at any one time, nor could I afford the associated band-width demands to do so.

Symbiotic relationships require contribution from both parties.  High-volume, popular skinners, yes, they DO provide the content, but consequently their skin downloads also contribute significantly to the running costs of the site which is largely financed by Stardock.

Now, if there's a requirement to be a subscriber to participate in remuneration it cannot be a 'bad thing' if in doing so you actually end up effectively refunded, and/or better still, come out ahead.

Generally people do support the site by more than 'just' their upload content but also through purchases, subscriptions, etc....and THAT is the 'good thing'....

Personally, I see no reason why I would not subscribe to a site which hosts my works for me, or financially support it in other ways as well, so I do.  I have around 150,000 downloads....dunno what that would cost specifically, but I'm betting Stardock paid for most of it, since a subscription, tee-shirts, CDs, etc can only go so far...

 

I like the idea Frogboy. I don't think there will be any problems with that.

BTW, I also thought some more about the previous idea you had and it was cool too)

Admin Jafo... please, just Will is fine! It always surprises me when people underestimate the value of content. I don't want to get into a chicken or the egg argument about content vs. distribution... But to accept your notion of symbiosis presupposes that the skinner derives some benefit from Wincustomize hosting their skin. WC derives benefit, as it provides the content that make the various Stardock products marketable. No one would buy Windowblinds if there were no skins for it, I would imagine. So do the skinners benefit? When WC provides the service of hosting a skin, who is the main beneficiary of that service: the skinner, or the guy that downloads and uses the skin? If a skinner is making money from his product being hosted here, then you are absolutely correct. Likewise if the skinner somehow benefits from the exposure he receives from having his work hosted here. Honestly, though, it would be interesting to know for what fraction of skinners those things are true. What about you? For myself, I provide content simply because I think other people might enjoy it. I enjoy creating, but once done, it doesn't really matter whether 1 or 100,000 people use it. I derive no benefit from it financially, nor is exposure of this type beneficial to me in any way. I would imagine many skinners here are in the same situation, unless perhaps their benefit is some sort of psychological satisfaction from the knowledge that x people are using their skin. Obviously there are "professional skinners" and those people are exceptions to what I'm talking about. They would, as you point out, have a symbiotic relationship.

Regardless, WC is certainly a great site, and deserves to be supported. Cheers...

Having re-read Frogboy's proposal, I see it refers to "downloads by users who are also subscribers" and says nothing about requiring the skinner to be a subscriber. Somehow when I read it the first time, I thought it made reference to skinners who were also subscribers.

It sounds like an excellent proposal, and a very nice gesture. I would only suggest that the Wallpaper and Bootskins sections be excluded for obvious reasons.

Cheers...

Will
(slinking away to get new bifocals)
[Message Edited]

Will....Wincustomize is [virtually] free advertising for a skinner's talents....no door-knocking required...no flyers....no billboard posting fees....etc, etc.

From this the potential reward to the skinner is measurable.....by looking at those who currently find careers/income through this skill use ....

I just want to say I appreciate that they are making ways for us to benefit.

Will, from reading your posts above, I take it you think the skinners recieve no benifit from their exposure here on WC. A lot of the skinners are making Money from their work being seen here. So there is a give and take. Both the site and skinners giving and recieving.

I still think the idea of rewards and prizes for best quality skins is a wonderful thing. I don't have any suggestions about how to decide who's skin is worthy of an award. I agree with Hippy and quite a few others who've made suggestions and pointed out flaws in the proposed plan, but feel confident that there will eventually be a format for how to qualify a skin as award worthy.
I still feel that there should be skins that recieve "special treatment" in the form of subscriber only downloads, and think that a special library section for subscriber only skins would be an incentive for subscription purchase.
is there a way to tie in the contest/award idea to subscriber only library content?
Just my thoughts on the subject, nothing more.

WOM and Jafo:

To quote myself:
>If a skinner is making money from his product being hosted here,
>then you are absolutely correct. Likewise if the skinner somehow
>benefits from the exposure he receives from having his work hosted
>here.

I already acknowledged the exception of professional or semi-professional skinners, those who make money from their skins or whose careers are enhanced by the exposure. Those skinners obviously benefit from WC. I am speaking speaking about the rest of the skinners.

Won't you acknowledge that some proportion of the skinners do it for no other reason than they enjoy the activity of skinning, and provide their work as a gift to the community although their careers are completely unrelated to skinning?

Yes, most skinners do it for the enjoyment only and not for commercial gain....and they also are not 'forced' to pay for their enjoyment by contributing to the cost of displaying their joyous creations....

Remember....commercial artisan or hobbyist alike both benefit equally through others' subsidy of their works....

I'm just happy to be here.

I agree with Jafo. I was just trying to point out that it starts out as enjoyment and then people come to you asking to hire you to create something for pay. So you still have the pleasure of uploading your work but also you can get spare cash along the way. For some it turns into a business.

Well anyway, we've gotten a bit off topic but it was a nice chat. To get back to it, I think Frogboy's proposal was an excellent one, and I support it.

Cheers, -Will

I don't think there is anything I can add to this conversation that hasn't been looked at already.
I support either plan proposed by Brad.
I will also be just as content with no reward, as I do it for the fun, and the satisfaction of looking at the finished product and saying hey... I did that!
The ultimate goal is to help maintain the longevity of this site. For the past 3 years, it has been my home in cyberworld and it's a much better place with WC in it.
So... let the games begin!!!

Please don't do this! I'm afraid it will make WC into something other then... it is.
It's not broken, So don't try and fix it.

I'm just happy making a contribution. "It is better to give than receive" as the old saying goes...

Fuzzy can speak for me anytime.

i think that it should be for author who has the most downloads total... i know that would encourage me to make better skins than i have, i mean, i could actually find the time to start skinning again! lol mkay, bell rang, gotta run to class.

#25 by tjesterb - 10/12/2004 7:17:52 PM Although I've never posted any skins, I have tried out many from this site. I've found that many skins that look great in the preview don't work well for me, for one reason or another.My point is that, I don't think DLs is the best criteria for giving awards/rewards, as something that looks great in preview may be a dud, and conversely a design that looks ho-hum may turn out to be a real winner.I think rewarding talent and hard work is the right thing to do, but maybe some kind of vote (by WC subscribers) or rating on a selection of skins chosen by the Admins would better serve the purpose.

yeah get like the top 50 authors and make a big vote at the end of the month/week what ever the time period is

Well I dont skin, nor contribute to this site....but the idea of paxx How about a judged (for quality) quarterly contest in which only subscribers can participate, and where all Journeymen and higher are invited to ballot their vote...would be an added benift to the subscription... and similar contest headings used in the last Gui...best minamilist...most original skin etc., As the song goes...you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself Frogboy..


~Its My Secret~

Okay here is what we've decided to do.

1st: No contest will satisfy everyone. Some people need to recognize that in the real world that perfect is the enemy of good.

2nd: We are going to hold a WindowBlinds test contest that will begin probably next week and end in early December (first Tuesday in December probably). It will be based on downloads of individual skins. IF someone were to make a bunch of incredible skins, they could walk away with several of the top 10 prizes.

3rd: Any skinner can participate.

4th: Only original skins will count. I.e. Longhorn skins or ports will not be counted.

5th: The rankings will be dtermined by # of WC Subscriber downloads. They're the ones paying the bill on this so their favorites will determine it.

6th: A portion of new subscriptions in that time will be set aside to be split amongst the winners. Based on September's new subscriptions that means around $500 to be split amongst the top 10 (probably most of that amongst the top 3, we'll decide the exact splitting shortly).

7th: If this goes well, this will be an on-going thing where we highlight different sections at different months - sometimes doing multiple ones.

8th: Our goal here is to encourage people to subscribe to the site, encourage more good quality skins to be made, and have some fun.