Sure. The hard life we live.

I had a method of balancing components.

attack was equal to defense in its matching tiers. Missiles were 25. Beams were 20, drivers were 30 at the last tier and there defenses were the same.

size of components going from the first version to the third on huge hulls was:

 Point defense was the smallest going in a pattern of 14, 12, 10. Armor was 12, 10, 8. Shields were 16, 14, 12.

Missiles were 16, 14, 12. Mass drivers were 19, 17, 15. Beams were 14, 12, 10.

Cost wise it varied with costs of either 100, 125, or 150.

beams were the cheapest massing out at 100cost at doom rays. Mass drivers were 150. And missiles were 125.

PD was 100. Armor was 150. Shields were 125.

I haven't played with research coat yet but I can say with this set up I've been playing is so much easier and strategic compared to Gaunathors values. Things like Armor which you would think are the best defense are, but they cost the most and are only effective against MDs. Its a trade. I ran a bit of math and found that the damage to cost to size ratio are satisfactory when compared to each other. They all have strengths and weaknesses but now its easier to see because sizes and price are constants now. So much fun building ships with this method, I unscrewed Gaunathors changes and made it more like before but better.

I also standardized life support cost and engine sizes and other things, but tell me if you guys want to try this out first and then I'll see about emailing the file I have.

DARCA

I get that.  But for Ion Beams,  the progression was just.. silly.   They were so cheap and so good that the next level of available beam weapons was *almost* a step backwards.   That's dumb.   I didn't nerf them into the ground,  just increased the cost from 55 to 65 to make all those TPs for Phasors actually meaningful.

The Seeker missiles were just plain wrong.   The description did not agree with the actual costs.

Yeah.  It was tempting to play with the values within a group in order to take out some of the see-saw in cost/power effectiveness.   But it is really a minor nit and I wanted to keep my post "short" (hah!).

Works for me.    If you are still interested in the google spreadsheet I'm happy to import mine into it.   I don't think I can create one though (I don't have a gmail or google account).

Whoa!   That's not right Maiden,  it should be 1 and 2.   Though 10 and 20 would be kinda fun.  

That works too.   It's a bit more of a nerf than we were discussing earlier,  in that they'd be obsolete after three more techs instead of four,  but it would also be more obvious to the player that they were obsolete -- no having to do power/cost/size calculations.   So I like it.

I think there's lots of systems out there that *could* work,  and some might even be more interesting than Guanathor's.   That said,  I really like how everything fits together right now and my gut reaction is to leave it alone,  past the few changes I've already suggested.   Playing around with component sizes is tricky,  at best.

We had that in DL and it was more or less annyoing^^ You're right, but there's still something off. If you for example pick Drengin or Terrans (who have a +10 speed bonus) and if you pick an additional bonus, then the new bonus is shown as +11 or +12 in the left field (although it will show as +20 or +30 in the right field).

Greetings!

Just wanted to check in and see how things are going.

There was talk that a code change was needed?  I have asked for a VM to be made so that I can compile it though it would not be a pleasant task (you have to run on Windows XP to get it to compile).  But if necessary I'll try to do so if the SD team has the VM ready for me.

But otherwise, where do things stand?

Thanks!

Hi Frogboy!

Two changes.  One bugfix and one request to change AIP7 colonization behavior.

To be honest I don't completely understand the bug.  From Mabus' description many pages ago:

The request to change AIP7 colonization behavior stems from the (generally) poor colonization performance of AIP7.   Not wanting to colonize outside its own sphere of influence is understandable,  but in the majority of cases it would be better off also picking up planets that aren't in anyone's sphere of influence yet.   Mabus did an insane binary-level transplant of AIP8's colonization routine into AIP7,  with excellent results,  but it would be a lot more maintainable if a code change/recompile was possible.

In C code (which I assume GC2 is written in),   you would change this in AIP7's colonization subroutine from something that I imagine looks like this:

to this:

Mod-wise,  I think we're in good shape.   There are three or four people playtesting each beta as it drops,  and there are no major changes on the horizon.   Most changes the last few betas have been spelling/grammar corrections,  and a little bit of tweaking here and there.   If,  hypothetically,  CU v5 Beta 1H was released today and then locked down -- and I'll leave that call to Mabus,  since he's taken on the role of project lead after Guanathor stepped back -- I'd say another week of playtesting to flush out more bugs would still be a good idea.

Lest I sound too clinical,  this mod is an absolute blast to play.   GalCiv has been on my hard drive one way or another since the OS/2 version,   but GC2 plus this mod is the most enjoyable GalCiv I can remember playing.

"We're at the tweak/polish/play test cycle and enjoying the fruits of our labour. When stuff pops up, we address it."

All settings just like in my last game, but Fast tech speed, no tech trade and Large galaxy with Scattered Stars. Tested G version with my tweak of removing food bonus from Hyperion Matrix. 75 turn - I'm low in most ratings, my tech is ok but I don't have production/military or economy to keep up with strongest civs, so I give up and plan on starting new game. Better yet, someone paid Thalan, my neighbor and strongest civ in galaxy to declare war on me.

I guess Iconians are not for me, or I just don't know a good order of research/building up planets with them. I grabbed 13 worlds, but only thanks to 700 manufacturing tile on my HW. Without it it could be worse. Here's a quick rundown:

Altarian - Being sandwiched between me, Krynn and Korath they will get culture flipped sooner or later. No Industrial or Econ techs, no Invasion, they have only 10 colonies. 834 income, -49 net. Small hulls.

Krynn - no Invasion, Mass Driver but no other weapon tech. Other then that they done a bit of research everywhere, mostly focused on their unique and diplomacy techs. 9 worlds. 594 total income, -83 per turn. Tiny hulls.

Drath - 1199 income, half from War Profit, they make 514 bc/turn. 15 worlds. Healthy mix of techs, they also got Invasion, and again, Beam Theory but no other tech. Tiny hulls.

Arcean - 845 income, -41 bc net, 13 worlds. No Industrial, no econ, no morale, no Invasion, no Space Weapons but Shield defense tech (!). Looks like they went straight for Aquatic Colonization I. Small hulls.

Korath - 428 income, -39 bc net, 7 worlds. No econ, no Invasion, no Spore, Stinger I, Slave Pits, Diabolical Research, Arena of Agony, only Xeno Communication. They got Aul Incinerator so I guess that's where most of their TP went. 2nd MMR, 4th tech. Small hulls.

Yor - 859 income, 151 net, 13 colonies - they started right in the middle of the galaxy. 2nd tech, 4th military. Seekers II, Invasion, Adv Barren, basic Toxic, only Xeno Communications but other than that, they have good research. Small hulls

Terran - 1071 income, 78 net, 24 (!) worlds. No Space Weapons, no morale, basic Barren, Research Centers and Xeno Factory, Banking Center, tiny hulls.

Drengin - 516 income, -9 net, 10 worlds. Slave Pits, 1st tech in econ/morale/farm/pop growth so not bad. No Diabolical Research, no Invasion but finished Ion Cannons. Just started New Propulsion. Small hulls

And finally, the monster itself - Thalan: 1675 income, -89 net, 31 (!) worlds. Industrial Adaptation I, Technology Adaptation II, Banking Center, adv Aquatic, Planetary Invasion, Laser II, Gravitronics, Impulse Drive I, Virtual Republic (only ones to went past Interstellar Governments, so they must like new descriptions :D), small hulls. They are 2nd in MMR, 1st in tech. 2 turns till they finish Industrial Adaptation II. 

I'll let those screenshots speak for themselves: 

Research http://i.imgur.com/xUO9iEY.jpg

Economy http://i.imgur.com/GqCmJOC.jpg

Military http://i.imgur.com/jMfKAyF.jpg

EDIT: Only thing going different for them is no Food Bonus on Hyperion Matrix, and they researched into economy techs and built those Banking Centers. So I guess they don't need +economy after all - they do more then fine. But Thalan even in vanilla were OP. and they are from the future, so it "fits". I need to test Terran, Arcean, Drengi, Krynn and Korx - so far they seem under-performing in my games, except for Terrans who colonize like crazy but tend to make stupid research decisions later. Also, I want to double check if the Korath goes straight for Aul again - it's an expensive tech and they could use more morale/econ/government techs instead. Or just make Spore ships. 

"Sometimes" is hard to program. 

The change we're looking for is simple and straightforward,  and good in almost all cases.   Lets keep it to that for now. 

By "sometimes" I meant like, well, most of the time But even if they colonize in no-ones influence, that's still better than what we have now :>

Hello Frogboy,

I've prepared a list ranging from essential to nice-to-have:

Essential:

- AIPersonality 7 Colonization 
Runs: Yor, Drengin, Korath

This AI does not colonize outside of it's borders leaving it incredibly weak due to a lack of planets. This is best seen on an Immense galaxy with a rare amount of habitual words. 

- AIPersonality 10 Planet Management
Runs: Iconians, Torians

This AI simply stops building structures on new planets at some points. Even the omnipresent Starport is missing. This leaves this AI incredibly weak since its colonies are essentially useless.

This is best spotted on a medium or larger map with a lot of habitable planets. I've never done an exact count but if the AI grabs 50 or more planet's you'll be able to see it. 

Summary:

• Needs to research Research (Computing/Pure Research)
• Needs to research Biology
• Needs to research Logistics
• Needs to be toned down with in its need for Industry
• Needs to be less hesitant to research expensive tech

This AI refuses to invest in research (blue) technology. Both Pure Research and Miniaturization categories are affected by this. We've worked around this by switching their research tech to Industry but it's a very ugly work around at not consistent with the other tech tree's at all.

But, this is not AIP8's only issue.

AIP8 loves Industry (brown/orange) technology is over the top. Often it will grind through it's manufacturing regardless of the amount of time it takes and very quickly falls behind in other technologies like weapons, invasion, etc.

In addition, AIP8 has a severe dislike for any biology (green) technology which causes it to fall behind in: Terraforming, Extreme Colonization, Population increase and farming.

Finally AIP8 ignores Logistics as well leaving it with very small and vulnerable fleets.

- One Per Planet Bug (OPPB)
The OPPB occurs when an upgraded 1pp stucture is destroyed due to an invasion or cultural flip. The game removes the structure from the planet and it cannot be build again. For example:

Agreed. The Psionic weapons were OP and because we looked a little deeper a few values were found that were off target. We'll fix those and leave it that because redoing the entire weapon branch is a pile of work.

Good to know. I'll put it in.

So from 75 to 0 then? Well it proves your point. I'll have a look at it.

Holy Moly! This mod is great.

Thanks MabusAltarn for all your work and everyone else. Great job!

Thank you for addressing the custom race ability costs, they now work as I think you intended (150 points to spend). Just one thing to think about though, I can load old custom races and still play ( with like -15 to -25 ability points). This might be considered a cheat (although I play comps so I'm cheating myself) so you might want to think if you want that option. Presumably I could delete the update...create a custom race...and then install the mod and play with an overpowered custom race.

The first game I played with this mod was insane (1e ). The Torians expanded like crazy and took over about 75% of the map (at least it felt like that). They crushed the Drengin (ironic) and only the Thalans and a custom race of mine (the Enlightened...a research based Super Isolationist race) mounted any resistance. It was a Huge map with 7 races and 7 minors. It rapidly was reduced to me, the Torians, the Thalans (as the major players), and the Arceans (who did well at the start but were just chewed up by the super-powers)and the Yor (who were kinda isolated and never really took off). At 2233 the Torians and Thalans declared peace (I had bribed the Thalans to attack the Torians) and the Torians declared on me. Too much. I had Harpoon 2 and Duranthium, they had end-tier weapons and defenses. This was on crippling. I haven't played in 6 months so that was the difficulty I last played.

I am reducing difficulty to painful and starting a new game with am immense galaxy, 9 minors, 9 opponents and a new custom race. I will give a more detailed and precise description of this new game soon.

The mod is stable and challenging.

Final comments....Wow...just wow!

Agreed. They need to colonize. No fancy business is needed. The same is true for AIP10's planetary management. If they manage their planets like AIP8 or 7 they'll be fine.

No. It's more complicated that it needs to be. A simple "Grab EVERYTHING you see" way of doing it works just fine.

If they make bad research decision of course they will be weaker, but their fast colonization speed and powerful improvements are enough as it is. With Trade/Banking Centers their income is alright, no bonuses are needed. Just a bit better taxation.

CU V5 Beta 2A

Weapon changes are significant enough to warrant Beta 2.

Changes:

Ioncannons cost 30

Psionic Beam is equal to Phasors 1 but more expensive

Psionic Missile is equal to Photon Torpedo I but more expensive

Psionic Shredder is equal to Graviton Driver I but more expensive

Renamed all Psyonic ID/Tech's to Psionic

Subspace Rebounder is equal to ForceField I but slightly more expensive and gives 7 absorpoin instead of 6

Arnorian Battle Armor is equal to Kanvium I but slightly more expensive

Telepathic Defense is equal to PD Combo I but slightly more expensive

Ion Beams 65.

Seekers 30 to 20.

No change to pulse cannons (They seem to fit perfectly between Singularity driver and Graviton Driver. Typo perhaps?).

Changed IonBeams group to Ion Beams

All Psionic Techs cost 800 TP. Down from 1200 and 1000.

Hyperion Matrix. Food% from 75 to 50%

Ultimate Slaveling Lab: TP from 12 to 10. bc from 6 to 5.

On Super Dominator Corvettes

After reading through Maiden's explanation I can only conclude this SA is powerful in the hands of a player but weak in the hands of an AI. There's not much we can do about this and there's a major chance we'll dig a hole for ourselves if we try. The Drengin's real weakness is their lack of planets. They (and the Korath) have the easiest time obtaining their best industry and research and after that it's nothing but weapons since they lack diplo/culture tech. That's how they're intended.

So I'm not going to burn my hands by redesigning an SA at this point. It'll be far to simple to shoot ourselves in the foot.

I like the idea of weapon costs slowly rising within a tier but it would require us to run through all the techs and we'll run into trouble along the way. You always do. Simple changes can have great effect.

The recent change in Psionic weapons looks good on paper but the question still remains if they perform well. Let's test that and then leave the weapons as they are as I think Gaunathor did a very good job with them.

The Hyperion Matrix now gives 50% instead of 75% since I was a bit hesitant to completely remove the food bonus. It's the only structure the Thalan get that grants bonus food and it will put their homeworld at 16 bln. That should be managable. If not, then we can take down the value a bit further but I feel small gradual steps are the way to go from now on.

It's time to play test again and I'd liketo ask all of you to keep an eye on the following:

• Terran/Drath/Thalan/Krynn hull progression. Are they stuck to long on tiny?
• Krynn unique research. I forced them to grab their unique tech asap but multiple reports show they lag behind in everything else. I'd like to know if these were isolated incidents or a problem so please include the Krynn in your games.
• Altarian/Torian/Arcean/Korx factory progression. AIP11 runs these civs and it's known to leave manufacturing by the way side. The Iconians have are on AIP11 as well but their unique factories allow for high AIValue's since they are untradable. Ideally I'd like to leave the "standard" manufacturing tech tradable as well but not if it's means these civs severely lag behind in industry.
• Do the Drath ALWAYS get War Profiteering and Invisible Hand? War Profiteering is on AIValue -10 now.
• Try and play with techtrade on every once in a while. Techtrade is part of the game and we need to find techs that are either:
• To easy to grab
• Should not be tradable
• To hard to grab (this will be hard to solve).
• Techs worth to much to the AI compared to that they. Techs like these can be used to to obtain a lot of techs in one go.

That's all I can think off for the moment. As always, thank you all for doing this and I look forward to the results f Beta 2A.

Regards,

M.

Fantastic. Thank you for doing this.

I've written some descriptions for the Iconian government techs. From their other tech descriptions it was learned they don't really have an economy but a functional form of communism. As such, their government focus is communal.

Someone (I think it was OShea) remarked the Iconians didn't get any morale bonus from their techs. After writing these descriptions I releazed a small morale bonus would fit perfectly.

Here they are:

<Culture ID="InterGov">
<DisplayName>Communities</DisplayName>
<Description>While have an emperor true power rests with the people. However, our observation's of other civilizations make it clear that advanced forms of government can yield great results economically. It would be wise to invest in more advanced forms of governing our people lest we fall behind the other civilizations.</Description>
</Culture>

<Culture ID="StarRep">
<DisplayName>Cooperative Society</DisplayName>
<Description>Our natural tendency to cooperate rather than compete sets us apart from other civilizations. Other forms of government focus on a select few that decide for many. This is not our way nor can it be. The idea of campaigning for a position is alien to us. However, by allowing our people choose a select few chosen for their competence, not for their promises, will result in a small increase in our society's efficiency.</Description>
<MoraleBonus>2</MoraleBonus>
<CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded>
<CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen>
</Culture>

<Culture ID="StarDem">
<DisplayName>Decentralized Governing</DisplayName>
<Description>The community is the core. Cabinets that govern from a distance lose touch with the people resulting in a society where neither side trusts nor listens. By decentralizing our governments we put the politicians back among the people. They will listen. They will understand and as a result they will govern with out people's best interests in mind. This will result in a moderate economic increase.</Description>
<MoraleBonus>3</MoraleBonus>
<CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded>
<CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen>
</Culture>

<Culture ID="StarFed">
<DisplayName>Egalitarian Principles</DisplayName>
<Description>We are different from other species in how we govern ourselves. We believe every individual is equal to another regardless of birth, social standing, wealth or intellect. Egalitarian Principles reinforces this core value and will grant incredible opportunities to talented individuals to explore who they are and what they are capable off. This increased productivity will result in an incredible economic increase.
</Description>
<MoraleBonus>5</MoraleBonus>
<CanBeTraded>0</CanBeTraded>
<CanBeStolen>0</CanBeStolen>
</Culture>

These techs grant +10 morale which is nice but not OP.

Regards,

M.

I really like them, fits them as a specie However this part I would rather see in first or second tech:

"We are different from other species in how we govern ourselves. We believe every individual is equal to another regardless of birth, social standing, wealth or intellect."

Something tells me this exposition will be better if earlier in the tree.

Basically a copy of the previous one with mark II slapped on it. 

Maybe something like this?

<Improvement>
<S_InternalName>Dream ConclaveII</S_InternalName>
<S_Name>Fantasy Conlcave</S_Name>

<S_UpgradeTarget>Dream Conclave</S_UpgradeTarget>
<S_Description>This improvement allows our people to fully immerse themselves whenever they want in a virtual reality, an unlimited source of amusement.</S_Description>

Oh, and the link to beta 2 is broken

New link

Full link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ho8k01pv24oxybv/Community%20Update%20V5%20-%20Beta%202A.zip?dl=0

Also fixed the old link.

Keep in mind you can grab every version I've posted from the File Archive.

Yes. They'll get diplo, influence and now morale.

I like it . I'll put it on my todo list.

Fun fact. It was the first sentence in InterGov in my first draft.

<DisplayName>Egalitarian Principles</DisplayName>
<Description>Other civilization's stress change, growth and a need to rise above one's station despite the fact that many simply desire safety, security and stability. Such societies are often led by people who experience this need for themselves but we know this is not the same for everyone. Despite these civilizations best attempts to curb the ill effects inherit from this philosophy they fail in doing so for a select few. This goes firmly against who we are but dispite this we are susceptable to outside influence. Egalitarian Principles reinforces our core values while still allowing incredible opertunities for individuals to explore who they are and grow into all they can become. Our people will be happier and as a result we expect an incredible boost to our economy.</Description>

Woot!  I love getting up in the morning and seeing new goodness.   And I have the next week off of work too... it's like,  well,  Christmas! 

Like the new tech descriptions.   Very nice.

@Mabus:  I think we had a slight misunderstanding regarding the Psionic stuff,  or maybe you just changed your mind.   Because of their size,  if you set the damage to the next tier you make them obsolete after three techs.    However,  you went two tiers up,   which makes them obsolete after *six* techs.    Was that intentional?

For example:  Harpoons,  the tier that open up Psionic Missiles,  have Power/Size scores of 21,25, and 30.   The next tier up,  Photonics,  have power/size ratios of 35,41, and 50.   Photons have 57,66, and 80.     Psionic Missiles have a Power/Size score of 80,  but they're more expensive than Photons,   so once you hit Photon III you ditch them.   That's six techs.  

I thought you were going to set the damage to the next tier up,  but make them more expensive.   I still think that's the best solution.   That would give Psionic Beams 3 damage,  Psionic Missiles 5 damage,  and Psionic Shredder 4 damage.   We should probably also reduce the TP more to compensate;   I forgot that there was actually a tech involved.  Oops.

I have a busy day ahead but will start a new test game this evening.   Will pay particular attention to the points you mentioned,  but will keep tech trading off -- I've gotten used to AI performance with it off,   so I'll continue to be the no-TT canary I suppose..  

This is getting confusing.... my idea was to set the psionic weapon to the same damage/size/sizemod as the next tier, skipping 3 techs.

Example:

Harpoon III

Psionoc Missile: You use this because it's better.

Photonic Torpedo I, II, III

Photon Torpedo I: This is the same damage/size/sizemod but cheaper than Psionic Missile so you use it and the Psionic missile has reseached end of life.

All the psionic weapons are set up this way. You skip ahead 3 techs, catch up, replace. I think we have a different method of counting.

And you did.   I missed the size change.  Mea culpa.

Note to self:  wait a while after waking up before posting..

Off to see the Hobbit with my sons,  then play some GC2 this evening.   It's a good day!

Not a typo,  a mistake on my part.   I forgot that even though there are "Neutron Drivers" in GC2Types,  they aren't used in the tree.  So yes,  you are absolutely correct,  Pulse Cannons at their current cost fit perfectly.

I'd be happy either way.   I think the original intent of AIP7 was to recognize that it didn't play a strong influence game and to avoid giving other civs free colonies.   But that's no reason to not colonize in unclaimed space.    If Frogboy thinks its reasonable to change AIP7 to "just colonize everywhere" then that works for me too of course.