GalCiv 2 Ultimate Edition Community Update

Guys, I see a big problem with the first tier of weapons.

Example: for certain amount of bc/production (2000), you can get 14 small ships with Stinger II. That's almost 3 fleets of 5 ships, each fleet doing 20 damage, 56 total.

If you grab Seeker Missile II, you get 4 fleets of 5, each doing 15 damage, 60 damage total.

Scatter Blaster II, that's almost 7 fleets (33 ships), 10 damage each, total 66.

Those are best value weapons, mass drivers are all falling into average, but take a look at beams:

Laser II, almost 3 fleets (14 ships) doing 15 damage each, total 41.

Kinetic Stream II, 2 fleets doing 15 damage each, total 30.

And weakest of Mass Drivers:

Ion Cannon II, 4 fleets doing 10 damage each, 40 total

Kinetic Streams are weakest option of all weapons, increase your MMR with less then half the speed of Scatter Blaster or Stinger, cost a lot to research.

In other words, weapons need balancing. Now, the quickest way would be to decrease research cost on KS, Laser and Ion Cannon, or reducing their costs. But there may be other stuff that is OP or UP in the tree. Or, if someone can explain to me what size mod actually does, I can try to come up with new weapon values, and maybe defenses later.

Edit: Look at it this way: for the same price/time, you can get 2 Small Kinetic Stream III ships with 4 damage, or you can get 8 Small ships with Scatter Blaster I, II or III, each doing 2 damage. That's 8 damage 16 HP vs 16 damage 64 HP. This is heavily in favor of SB, as you don't need to research logistics in order for the SB ships to take out the KS ships. 2 KS will win with 3 SB, which will leave 1 KS ship slightly damaged. Next SB fleet will destroy last KS ship. And you have 1.5 fleet left that never had to participate in the fight, so probably will have 2 full fleets left.

It's even worse if you take into consideration Stinger II or Stinger III. for the price of 2 KS ships, you can get 3.5 ships with Stinger II or III. Problem is, ship with Stinger II or III will have damage = 4, same as ship with Kinetic Stream, but you end up with 1.5 ships more.

And, if you count in 10% Miniaturization, Scatter Blaster III outshines the competition. For 2000 production you can field 28 ships (6 fleets of 5), each fleet doing 15 damage, for 84 damage total. Kinetic Stream III and 10% Miniaturization allows you to get only 6 ships with 5 damage each, so 1 fleet doing 25 damage, or 30 damage total. That's 84 damage 224 HP vs 30 damage 48 HP.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Quoting OShee,

reply 926

In other words, weapons need balancing.

Why? The design-philosophy of SD/vanilla is to incorporate an extra random element into the military progression of the races via *unbalanced* weapon-mods.

AI's do not examine their techtrees and then choose a best path. So they sometimes go for a weak weapon, their neigbors might go for a good weapon, their distant neighbours go for medium weapons. The weak weapon AIs might loose against their strong-weaponed neighbours although the situation could be like this that it is giving them an advantage to survive an enemy that has advantages in other fields (more planets, more MP etc).

If a strong AI picks a strong weapon he might be put into a situation where he could easily subjugate his neighbours which will then create a dominating AI which will give the human player a hard challenge to win the map. This is exactly what has to happen otherwise the game will become boring.

Imagine a situation where all AI's produce fleets of the same strength using the same MP: then the player only has to make them go to war and their military will simply cancel out and be in a static state. That's boring because here the player won't feel any pressure on him.

Although the vanilla game does incorporate this "unbalance" in a fair way: Scatter Blaster (the best tier1 weapon) was balanced out by the week Seeker-missiles. So sometimes Yor/Iconian will be strong initially picking MD branch, sometimes be weak by picking other weapons.

Quoting OShee,

reply 926

Edit: Look at it this way: for the same price/time, you can get 2 Small Kinetic Stream III ships with 4 damage, or you can get 8 Small ships with Scatter Blaster I, II or III, each doing 2 damage. That's 8 damage 16 HP vs 16 damage 64 HP. This is heavily in favor of SB, as you don't need to research logistics in order for the SB ships to take out the KS ships. 2 KS will win with 3 SB, which will leave 1 KS ship slightly damaged. Next SB fleet will destroy last KS ship. And you have 1.5 fleet left that never had to participate in the fight, so probably will have 2 full fleets left.
It's even worse if you take into consideration Stinger II or Stinger III. for the price of 2 KS ships, you can get 3.5 ships with Stinger II or III. Problem is, ship with Stinger II or III will have damage = 4, same as ship with Kinetic Stream, but you end up with 1.5 ships more.
And, if you count in 10% Miniaturization, Scatter Blaster III outshines the competition. For 2000 production you can field 28 ships (6 fleets of 5), each fleet doing 15 damage, for 84 damage total. Kinetic Stream III and 10% Miniaturization allows you to get only 6 ships with 5 damage each, so 1 fleet doing 25 damage, or 30 damage total. That's 84 damage 224 HP vs 30 damage 48 HP

The problem of these "cheap" weapons is that their fleets cannot grow as potent as other costly weapons and therefore, usually no experienced fighters will emerge from them. These weapons are usually good to get your MMR high while strong weapons can give you an advantage to defeat your enemy lossless although the challenge here is how you can muster the industry requirements.

Let's make a few fight calculations using average numbers at 18 logistics which equates to a maximum of 3 Heavy Fighters.

The KS fleets shows Att+12 @ 24HP; the SB fleet +6 @ 24 HP.

1st Fight:

1st round: KS -3HP = 21HP = Att+6

SB -6HP = 18HP = Att+3

2nd round: KS -3HP = 18HP = Att+6

SB -6HP = 12HP = Att+2 (-1 ship)

3rd round: KS -2HP = 16HP = Att+4 (-1 ship)

SB -6HP = 6HP = Att+1 (-1 ship)

4th round: KS -1HP = 15HP = Att+4

SB -4HP = 2HP = Att+1

5th round: KS -1HP = 14HP = Att+4

SB -4HP = -2HP = lost fight

You basically see the need why weapons that result in high firepower need to be balanced versus their costs.

Of course, if we continuue with the calculations until one side has totally lost his ships the SB side will come out victorious.

However, this is not how the game plays out, it doesn't clump all his fleets universaly alltogether only attacking a single target with them. From the intersystemic rallyepoint these fleets will be send in all different directions and you can see that the KS fleets will be much more successfull although the SB fleets will hit at more targets in the same time.

There is also a slight error with your MP production calculation. The AI constantly overproduces ships, and this MP is lost. The more ships are produced the greater this loss gets. For example if there is an overproduction of +20 for each design, then KS ships will cost a total of 520 MP. For this MP you will get only 6,5 SB ships = not 8. And the AI will not play around with focus or design his ships specifically for a single planet or adjust his global sliders so that his current shipdesign is met (as a player could do).

There are also numerous other "game mechanics" or "traits" which play into all this, For example, sometimes a bad weapons-branch is followed by a good one, which balances it out.

Or defense-type of ships which actually have to be designed as strong as possible and there are rather weak by cheap weapons.

There's in fact so many factors playing into this that it's impossible to say which weapon is weak/strong. It's mostly situational. All I'm seeing is that the original design does incorporate alot of different methods to make the game interesting and picking up the weapons in such an isolated scenario and then trying to homogenize them will probably disturb those

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So sometimes Yor/Iconian will be strong initially picking MD branch, sometimes be weak by picking other weapons.

I do not think this is actually a good design.

Yes, KS fleet emerged victorious, but let's take into the account the costs of each fleet as well. 3 KS ships (I take KS III) cost you 720 manufacturing. You can get 12 ships with Scatter Blasters III with that. Let's take into the account loss of some of the production - so say 9 ships.

That is still 2 full fleets after first fight.

But lets look away from first tier of weapons, which are really full of extremes. From the second tier upwards, weapons are more streamlined.

On small ship

Particle Beam III - 8 damage, 220 cost

Singularity Driver III - 6 damage, 130 cost

Harpoon III - 6 damage, 160 cost

Plasma III - 12 damage, 260 cost

Pulse Cannon III - 12 damage, 160 cost

Photonic Torpedo III - 10 damage, 180 cost

On medium

Ion Beams III - 24 damage, 470 cost

Neutron Driver III - 24 damage, 330 cost

Photonic Torpedo III - 20 damage, 340 cost (2 space short of 25/410)

2nd/3rd/4th/5th/6th tier of weapons have more or less same attack value on all hulls, only difference is the cost. This doesn't make different weapon techs that much exciting. All in all it boils down to this:

Beam: lower damage, smaller size, higher cost per damage - ends with average ship for higher cost.

Mass Driver: average damage, average size, lower cost per damage - average ship for small cost.

Missile: higher damage, bigger size, average cost per damage - average ship for average cost.

More interesting would be something like this:

Class 1: average damage, smaller size, high cost - strong ships for high cost / fewer ships but stronger

Class 2: lower damage, average size, small cost - weaker ships for small cost / lots of weaker ships

Class 3: higher damage, bigger size, average cost - average ships for average cost / average number of average ships

First, it makes different weapon choices matter more. You go for stronger ships but fewer in numbers, weaker but plenty, or stay in the middle. At the current state, all weapons top out same amount of damage on same sized hulls once you reach 2nd or 3rd tier of weapons onwards, only difference is how much of them can you produce. And Mass Driver is the best choice, because AI doesn't pick defenses that often, and you can produce many more of them. Changing this could also be more interesting, because sometimes AI will have strong but not numerous fleet, and sometimes loads and loads of weaker then average ships.

The thing is, the way things are right now, it pushes the player towards Mass Drivers because they are simply a better choice in a long run (they even cost less to research), while at the same time makes beams unattractive, with Missiles being just average.

and you can see that the KS fleets will be much more successfull although the SB fleets will hit at more targets in the same time.

I like this design, more ships allow you to hit in different areas, less ships allow you to poke deeper but without flexibility, but the thing is, in first tier some weapons are just way better then others. And starting from 2nd tier which is reached quickly by the AI, this feature is gone - all the ships have same max attack, but choosing one path over another will let you have more or less of them. And that's it for the excitement.

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@OShee:

Cost per power differentials are actually more or less constant across weapon tiers.

Using Mass Drivers as a base (ie 100%), cost per power ratios are:

Tier 1: Beam 175% Missile 125%

Tier 2: Beam 146% Missile 133%

Tier 3: Beam 138% Missile 108%

Tier 4: Beam 162% Missile 125%

Tier 5: Beam 157% Missile 114%

Tier 6: Beam 175% Missile 126%

So why would you use beams? Because they have moderate power for their size, and high utility (sometimes it really does matter that you can squeeze another weapon onto a ship), and moderate research cost.

So why would you use missiles? Because for their size they have the best attack. But you might not be able to fit a "nice" number of them on a ship. And they're expensive to research.

So why would you use mass drivers? Because they're cheap. And the research is cheap. That sometimes matters! As a tradeoff, they have the worst attack for their size.

For a player, there are several factors that go into choosing a weapons branch, and as Maiden noted the AI's random-ish (I see a lot more missiles and drivers than beams) choices make for occasionally lopsided engagements and thus less static games.

I find the Iconian/Yor tier 1 weapons to be somewhat balanced, all things considered -- they have one great weapon, one average weapon, and one terrible weapon.

As I've said before I find the current weapon progression interesting and elegantly designed.

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If you have a choice between 5 Medium ships with 15 missile attack each, 6 Medium ships with 15 mass driver attack each, or 4.3 Medium ships with 16 beam attack each, which one will you choose? And why would you ever choose to go beam over mass driver, if research cost is higher and you get less ships? Also, why would you choose missile, if you are getting same attack value on ships, getting better weapons faster when researching mass drivers, and getting more of them on top of it?

Wouldn't it be more interesting to see AI go in one game with small amount of strong ships, and in another with lots of weaker ones? Instead of seeing lots of average ones, or few average ones?

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Quoting OShee,

reply 930

Wouldn't it be more interesting to see AI go in one game with small amount of strong ships, and in another with lots of weaker ones? Instead of seeing lots of average ones, or few average ones?

Yes it would be but we can't reprogram the AI to make this work. In the long run it's doesn't matter all that much if a species picks up a stronger or weaker weapon they all end up in the same spot power wise.

Unique weapons provide a boost, or the opposite. The key element is that they are all temporary in their use. This is not game breaking.

The simplest solution is to ditch the unique weapons in favor of generic ones but I don't fancy doing that nor do I really want to re-balance the weapons/defense, etc, etc unless it is really needed. The Evil weapons were OP and we dealt with that. Some cost/power stats we off, we dealt with those as well.

Keep looking and you will keep finding things to do better. The trick at this stage is to recognize low hanging fruit, play test and make small adjustments to AI research and maybe add/remove a bonus here and there.

That said...

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Merry X-Mas. Here's V5.3.2.

This version could not have been possible without all of you play testing and reporting your findings. I want to thank you all for your continued effort in making this CU the best it can be.

This update focuses on the Torians, getting the AIs to grab their research tech and weapon tech.

Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6acfhubbx7ir3q/Community%20Update%20V5.3.2.zip?dl=0

Make sure to remove the Torian Raceoncifgxml file before playing.

=TechTree

XenoEconomics
-AIValue from 20 to 25
-removed AIP11 tweak

XenoResearch
-AIValue 20 to 25

Research Center
-AIValue 20 to 25

University
-AIValue 20 to 35

Advanced Computing
-AIValue 10 to 20

Neutrality Learning Center
-AIValue 10 to 35
-Cost 500 to 1000

XenoRefining
-AIValue 10 to 5

ExpertRefining
-AIValue 10 to 5

Beam Weapon Theory
-AIValue 10 to 15

Laser I
-AIValue 10 to 15

Laster II
-AIValue 10 to 15

Laster III
-AIValue 10 to 15

Mass Driver Theory
-AIValue 10 to 15

Mass Drivers I
-AIValue 10 to 15

Mass Drivers II
-AIValue 10 to 15

Mass Drivers III
-AIValue 10 to 15

Missile Weapon Theory
-AIValue 10 to 15

Stinger I
-AIValue 10 to 15

Stinger II
-AIValue 10 to 15

Stinger III
-AIValue 10 to 15

Seeker I
-AIValue 10 to 15

Seeker II
-AIValue 10 to 15

Seeker III
-AIValue 10 to 15

KineticStreams1
-AIValue 10 to 15

KineticStreams2
-AIValue 10 to 15

KineticStreams3
-AIValue 10 to 15

ScatterBlaster1
-AIValue 10 to 15

ScatterBlaster2
-AIValue 10 to 15

ScatterBlaster3
-AIValue 10 to 15

IonCannons
-AIValue 10 to 15

IonCannons2
-AIValue 10 to 15

IonCannons3
-AIValue 10 to 15

CulturalEnlightenment
-Requirement set to None
-AIValue from 35 to 10
-Category from Entertainment to Pure Research

HealingPools
-Requirement set to PlanetaryImprovements
-Cost 300 to 100

WelnessFalls
-AIValue 35 to 30

TidesOfCleansing
-AIValue 25 to 20

TorianHotSprings
-AIVAlue 25 to 20

NanoMaterials
-Requires BasicSpaceConstruction

Advanced Philosophy
-Requires University

Enhanced Adaptation
-Cost 150 to 450 to 600. The reaised cost ensures Planetary Improvements is grabbed first. This is important because the AI will sniff out X-col tech much to early and fail to develop properly. On a side note. 10% planet quality is an AMAZING bonus and 150 seems far to cheap. This change effects the Krynn as well but they have no trouble dealing with it.

=Torian TechTree

Xeno Business
-Requirements removed. Defaults to TechTree

StellarCartography
-Removed requirement. Defaults to TechTree

Advanced Computing
-Requirement from Scientific Method Implenmentation to University

PlanetaryImprovements
-Requires BasicSpaceConstruction
-Category Biology

EnhancedAdaptation
-Requires BasicSpaceConstruction

BasicSpaceConstruction
-Cost 75
-Wrote description and details
-Displayname Engineering

Xeno Communications
-Requirements set to CulturalEnglightenment

=RaceConfig

Torians
-Removed BasicSpaceConstruction tech

The Torians suffered from an ill put together techtree. Grabbing 3 (expensive) morale techs at the start of the game comes at a cost and that cost is lagging behind in everything else. AIP11 is terrible at dealing with "extra" brances. The Altarians suffered from a similar problem until I moved their unique tech to Temples.

I did something similar to the torians. They're now the only civ that has a prerequisite to Xeno Communications. Also, their morale tech is now unlocked by Planetary Improvements just like everyone else. This simply works better and prevents the AI from going astray in it's early research. AIValues from copied form the "Standard" entertaimment tech used by the Terran's/Arceans/Korx.

In addition their research branch saw a little bit of love. Scientific Method Implementation now unlocks Univesity and ONLY university. All the other techs branch of from University so they have no option other than to get it. And... it works.

Also, I removed Xeno Engineering from their TechTree and used BasicSpaceConstruction instead. With a bit of renaming/writing this "new" tech works perfectly as a replacement and grants two starbase modules. This makes sense. The torians are lagging behind because of their occupation by the Drengin so they have some catching up to do. Game wise this change doesn't make a damn difference and it's solely intended to communicate the state of the Torian nation in a subtile way.

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Quoting OShee,

reply 930

If you have a choice between 5 Medium ships with 15 missile attack each, 6 Medium ships with 15 mass driver attack each, or 4.3 Medium ships with 16 beam attack each

I think you slipped a digit somewhere.

If I have Medium hull, 10% mini, and tier2 weapons, I can fit 7 Particle Beam III or 5 Harpoon III or 5 Singularity III.

That's 14 beam vs 15 missile vs 10 mass driver. 1 on 1 vs the driver ship, the missile wins around three times as often.

The beam ship costs 395. The missile ship costs 380. The driver ship costs 230.

This pattern holds, more or less, throughout the weapon tiers and hull sizes. You want to get cheap firepower in the air fast? Go mass drivers. But if you don't leverage that temporary advantage, you're going to start losing a lot of them once the beam and missile ships arrive.

Anyway, I'm starting to feel like a broken record. We can agree to disagree as long as you get the maths right.

Edit: I got the maths wrong the first time (forgot about SizeMod). I am now enjoying the taste of that last sentence. Mmm!

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Quoting MabusAltarn,

reply 932

Merry X-Mas. Here's V5.3.2

Woot! Time to fire up a test game. I was going through withdrawl.

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Quoting SilasOfBorg,

reply 934

Woot! Time to fire up a test game. I was going through withdrawl.

We can't have that, can we?

I've been playing a test game on tough with the Iconians. It's fun but I need to crank up the difficulty a bit because I'm miles ahead of the AI in research.

One "problem" I have found is with techtrading. With the lvl 1 x-col tech below 26 these techs can be traded for a very generous amount of tech in return. I'll keep an eye on this.

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I think you slipped a digit somewhere.

I included Impulse Drive III and tier 4 of weapons there.

We can agree to disagree as long as you get the maths right.

It's 3 to 1 so I'll just shut up about it ^^

Here's V5.3.2.

In my couple of past games they (Torian) where doing disastrous decisions, I'll see how they do now.

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Quoting OShee,

reply 936

In my couple of past games they (Torian) where doing disastrous decisions, I'll see how they do now.

I read your reports which gave me a good picture what was wrong with them and what had to be done. I think they're in a much better place now.

Let me know what you find.

Thanks.

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Game 1 - to speed this up, all abundant, extreme uncommon, very fast research

Arcean - 22 colonies (6 extreme), 1400 tourism and taxes, Republic, Factory, Research Center, economy 3, morale 1, pop growth 1, weapon tier 1 lvl 3, PI, all x-col except Radioactive, 182 total research spending.

Torian - 32 colonies (6 ex), 2400 toursm/taxes, no gov tech, Medium hulls, Factory, Technology Communes (job well done Mabus!), economy 3, morale 2, pop growth 2, weapon tier 1 lvl 3, Stellar Marines, 425 total tp. All x-col apart from Toxic.

Altarian - 17 colonies (2), 1200 income, Republic, Medium, Industrial Sector+Power Plant, RC, economy 4, Dark Energy+Divergent, weapon tier 1 lvl 1, PI, titanium armor II, 197 tp. They have +300 research tile on theri HW, and never used it. Noobs Easy on X-col (Gravity II)

Iconian - 23 colonies (5), 1900 income, Democracy, Replication II, RC, economy 3, morale 2, pop growth 1, finished only toxic and aquatic, weapon tier 3 lvl 3, PI, titanium I. 374 tp.

Korx - 26 colonies (3), 1900 income, Republic, Manufacturing Center+PP, RC, economy 2, morale 1, weapon tier 2 lvl 2, Bombardment, again armor theory, 241 tp.

http://i.imgur.com/6La1OPH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/h8vvjjE.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/LOadvAT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yX6xvPb.jpg

Game 2

Arcean - had a bad spawn on the map, only 3 close starts, 12 colonies (2), 1150 income, Republic, Medium, Manufacturing Center+PP, Academies, 2 x-col lvl 2, economy 3 morale 1, pop 1, weapon tier 1 lvl 1, PI, 138 tp

Torian - 30 colonies (7), 2000 income, no government, Manufacturing Center+PP, Technology Commune, economy 2, morale 1, pop 1, weapon tier 3 lvl 1, Bombardment, 3 x-col lvl 2, 290 tp.

Altarian - 17 colonies (3), 1400 income, Republic, Medium, Manufacturing Center, RC, economy 3, pop 2, Unimaginable Destruction, weapon tier 1 lvl 1, PI, 146 tp, 3 x-col tech lvl 2, 1 lvl 1,

Iconian - 21 colonies (6), 81% spending, 59 morale, 62 tax. 1300 income, Medium, Replication II, no government tech, Academies, economy 2, morale 2, pop 2, weapon tier 3 lvl 1, Tidal Disruption, aquatic 2, toxic 2, barren 1, 187 tp (something happened with their economy, most of the game they where at the top with Torian)

Korx - 20 colonies (3), 1500 income, Republic, Industrial Sector+PP, RC, economy 0, morale 1, pop 2, weapon tier 2 lvl 1, Bombardment, 160 tp, 2 x-col lvl 2.

http://i.imgur.com/5RafVZL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6lxAQvj.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yK8fl5v.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4IfSEEZ.jpg

Game 3

Arcean - 12 (0), 1000 income, Republic, Manufacturing Center+PP, Academies, economy 3, morale 1, pop 2, weapon tier 2 lvl 2, PI, radioactive 1, 115 tp

Torian - 26 (3), 2300 income, Republic, Manufacturing Center, Technology Commune, economy 3, morale 1, pop 1,weapon tier 1 lvl 1, Stellar Marines, aquatic/barren/heavy 2, radioactive 1, 282 tp

Altarian - 14 (4), 800 income, 58 morale, Republic, Factory, Xeno Research, economy 2, pop 2, Way of the Dread Lords, weapon tier 3 lvl 3, PI, deflectors 2, radioactive 2, 154 tp

Iconian - 22 (1), 2100 income, Democracy, Replication 2, RC, economy 2, morale 1, never picked Panetary Improvements, weapon tier 4 lvl 2, Bombardment, toxic 2 aquatic 1, 386 tp.

Korx - 19 (2), 1650 income, Republic, Medium, Manufacturing Center+PP, RC, economy 2, morale 1, pop 1, weapon tier 3 lvl 1, PI, radioactive/heavy 2, 153 tp.

http://i.imgur.com/OoPbPx5.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Gvy2Obd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/325vUoM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2SJhg89.jpg

Both Iconian Refinery (16mp) and Fabricator (50% mp) are indestructible, also they lack soldiering techs, making them the best choice for your first invasion. Just thinking out loud here

Best races - 1st place Torian/Iconian, 2nd Korx who finally doesn't suck that much, then Altarian/Arcean equally bad. Note there where no wars at all, so Korx never had any extra income the whole game. Over last 2-3 patches Iconian improved most then any other tested race. They don't suck no more, actually they stay at the top, their research can get very high if left alone, as I experienced myself on 210 turn game - quite a challenge to keep up with them now, thanks to early game boost from quicker access to Library.

Next I'm gonna test AIP7 races, with Iconian for comparison.

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Test game on 5.3.2, Large/Scattered/Painful/10 players. 100 weeks.

Note that the Drath were once again present, and once again the galaxy somehow found itself embroiled in conflict. From 85 to 100 several wars broke out:

* Thalan attacked the Drengin

* Korx attacked the Yor

* Krynn attacked the Yor

* Torian attacked the Yor

* Torian attacked the Korx

* Drath attacked the Arcaen

.. and maybe a couple more I missed. I got the "blank war declaration dialog" from the Drath again this game. I'm not sure what is going on here and can't find anything missing or otherwise wrong with GC2_Conversations.xml. Dammit.

Civ breakdown:

Korath - rotten start, map corner in a big void with no planets. 3 colonies, 221 bc income. Had still managed to grab a very nice collection of early tech. Did *not* go overboard on government tech early, which was nice to see. Had Slave Canyons, Xeno Med., Imaginative Research, Xeno Farming, Soil Enhancement, Singularity I.

Torian - 12 colonies, 887 bc income. Sensible amount of dippy techs (Interstellar Gov, Diplomacy, Trade), Enhanced Adaptation, X-Col and Toxic I, Xeno Factories (YAAAAAY!!!), Universities, Xeno Trade, Soil Enhancement, Healing Pools. Military techs: Rail Guns I, PI up to Tidal Disruption(!), Starbase Mobilization(!), Small hulls.

Drengin - 13 colonies, 1167 bc income. Decent position and colonized aggressively. Had good econ techs (Admin. Slavelings, Xeno Propaganda, Slave Canyons, Ultimate Diabolical Research, Economic Exploitation, Xeno Farming II, Soil Enhancement, Xeno Medicine, Arena of Agony. Military: Harpoon I, Small hulls, PI, Mil. Sb Construction. Really nice tech mix, I was starting to worry last game (5.3.1 IIRC) when they didn't even have Xeno Slavery after 100 turns...

Yor - 8 colonies, 702 bc income. Sandwiched inbetween Terrans and Torians. Had Collective Evaluation, Mfr II and Distributed Energy Matrix(!), Synthetic Ingenuity, Charging Stalks, Eff. Studies III. Military: Particle Beams II (nice), Mil. SB Construction. Still had Tiny ships.

Terran - 9 colonies, 704 bc income. Manufacturing Centers (as usual), Xeno Research, Xeno Econ, Xeno Biology. Militarily they had Singularity II, PI, and Mil SB Construction. Decent tech mix aside from missing Xeno Entertainment - passing up that early 15% morale bonus has to be painful.

Thalan - 15 colonies, 1835 bc income (eeeep!). They started central-map and took full advantage of it. Had Virtual Republic, Xeno Med, Hyperion Starbases, Industrial II, Tech Adaptation II, Xeno Econ, Hyper Mainframes, Alien Soil Studies. Military: Small hulls, Laser III, PI. Many of their SB already had Singularity Weapons. They were slugging it out with the Drengin, to no real effect.

Krynn - 11 colonies, 980 bc income. Had Counter Espionage, Laws of Krynn, Superior Espionage, Interstellar Missionaries, Interstellar Expansion, good set of Econ tech (Mfr Centers, Research Academies, Xeno Econ. Military was Rail Guns II, PI, Small hulls.

Korx - 12 colonies, 1403 bc income (380 from War Profit). Excellent econ tech (Xeno Facs, Hyper Mainframes, Xeno Biology, Xeno Entertainment). Military: Rail Guns III, Mil Sb Construction, Small hulls.

Drath - 8 colonies, 1514 bc income (1020 from War Profit!). Had Interstellar Gov, War Profiteering, Mfr. Centers, Research Center, Xeno Trade, Xeno Biology. They were in the process of researching Hatchling Mound. It is nice, I mean *REALLY* nice, to see the Drath pick up good research/factory tech early so they have some way of spending all that sweet war cash!! Military: what military? Tiny hulls, no Space Weapons. Given that they'd *just* declared war, I'm reasonably confident that they would have picked up some weaponry asap, but turn 100 is getting kind of late to defend yourself.

@Mabus: really impressed with Torian, Drath, and Korx play lately. The Drath and Korx seem to be more aggressive on the research/factory tech in order to take advantage of the piles of trade/war cash, and the Torians actually have factory tech this game! My gut says we're in a really good place with the AI right now and we should be very careful with further tweaking, at least as far as the early game goes.

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Mfr II and Distributed Energy Matrix(!)

yeah, they tend to pick manufacturing II quite early in my games on previous patches, as well as DEM. I'm gonna run 3 games to see how they fare overall.

really impressed with Torian, Drath, and Korx play lately. The Drath and Korx seem to be more aggressive on the research/factory tech in order to take advantage of the piles of trade/war cash, and the Torians actually have factory tech this game! My gut says we're in a really good place with the AI right now and we should be very careful with further tweaking, at least as far as the early game goes.

Same experience here, both Torian and Korx have improved a lot, but just wait and see how Iconians roll ^^

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MarvinKosh

Join Date 08/2005

+87

Last time the weapons were balanced, the ratios for damage/space and cost/damage looked fine to me. Sure, there are occasions when you would want to be able to fit one extra weapon, but once you leave the Tier 1 weapons behind that becomes less important. Look at the Google Docs spreadsheet, anyway. Perhaps there are some adjustments that can be made.

The values for weapons were nerfed back to near-vanilla values, and so they don't give a lot of wiggle room, but that's what was most requested at the time.

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Game 1 - all evil races declared war

Yor - 22 colonies (1), 2300 income, no Xeno Communications, Medium, Collective IV + DEM, Creative Insight, efficiency 5, stalks 2, pop 3, weapon tier 5 lvl 2, Terror Drones 1, barren 2, toxic 1, radioactive 1, 337 tp. Lucky 700 research tile on their HW No logistics or yellow techs unfortunately

Drengin - 27 (1), 1700 income, Republic, Large, Slave Canyon, Imaginative Research, economy 0, morale 2, pop 1, weapon tier 3 lvl 2, Shock troops, aquatic/gravity 1 (got 2 nice radioactive in their influence), 209 tp, again no logistics

Korath - 18 (0), 1900 income, no government, Medium, Enhanced Slavelings, Ultimate Diabolical, economy 3, morale 2, pop 3 (Wretched Cloning), weapon tier 4 level 3, Spore, no PI, radioactive 1, 227 tp (it just dived down from like 280-300). Had a bad spawn next to me and Iconians so I colonized a planet around 30th turn and gave it to them so they could expand their influence a bit.

Iconian - 20 (5), 1600 income, Democracy, Replication 1, Academies, economy 3, morale 2, pop 2, weapon tier 4 lvl 2, Bombardment, gravity/radioactive 1, 256 tp, Had a terrible spawn but managed to get a portion of the galaxy for themselves.

http://i.imgur.com/N2jR2hv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JHQjUuA.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6TabxMZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nViuOnA.jpg

Game 2:

Yor - 17 (2), 2000 income, Republic, Medium, Collective III+DEM, Invention Matrix, efficiency 5, stalks 1, pop 2, weapon tier 5 lvl 1, Bombardment, barren 2,

Drengin - 41 (5), 3000 income, Republic, Medium, Devil's Forge, Diabolical Research (bit low), economy 3, morale 2, pop 3, weapon tier 4 lvl 2, Stellar Marines, aquatic/toxic/radioactive 2, gravity 1. Had a great start at the center of the map with no competition (Iconians were in the corner).

Korath - 24 (3), 1550 income, stopped at Xeno Communications, Medium, Enhanced Slavelings, Pain Amplification, economy 2, morale 2, pop 3 (WC), weapon tier 4 lvl 1, Spore but no PI, aquatic/gravity 2, toxic 1,

Iconian - 26 (5), 1750 income, Democracy, Replication 1, Research Center, economy 3, morale 2, pop 2, weapon tier 3 lvl 2, Tidal Disruption, barren/radioactive/toxic 2, gravity/aquatic 1, not the best position again but doing ok grabbing planets in other civs influence.

http://i.imgur.com/3YxXAvM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/LA7v64G.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Gv79ne2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tLGomqU.jpg

Game 3: this one is only 90 turns long instead of usual 100-105, as Korath Spored my lone HW.

Yor - 21 (1), 1900 income, no governments, Collective IV+Manufacturing Vortex, Collective Academy, efficiency 5, stalks 2, pop 3, weapon tier 4 lvl 1, PI, barren 2 but no x-col (2 juicy 10-14 PQ in their influence), 245 tp

Drengin - 30 (0), 1900 income, Interstellar, Medium, Slave Pits, no research, economy 2, morale 2, pop 3, weapon tier 3 lvl 1, Advanced Troop Mod, 214 tp. Started in the center again.

Korath - 14 (0), 1400 income, Republic, Medium, Enhanced Slavelings, Diabolical, economy 1, morale 1, pop 2, weapon tier 3 lvl 1, Spore, no PI, toxic 1, 124 tp. Started in bad corner.

Iconian - 33 (13), 1400 income 53 tax 62% spending 75 morale, Interstellar, Replication 1, Academies, economy 3, morale 2, pop growth 2, weapon tier 2 lvl 3, PI, all x-col. 274 tp

Iconians for some reason have same amount of population as Korath, but twice as many colonies. Couple of their worlds close to their HW have +300% mp tiles with Interstellar Refineries on them, so my guess is they are producing colony ships too fast for the population to grow. Sometimes too much production is a bad thing

Yor seems to be most reliable in getting both factory and research techs, also is really mad on getting weapons ahead of it's opponents. Failed to get Xeno Communication once.

Drengin seem to colonize best but this is due to good spawns. They don't usually go heavy in manufacturing or research techs. Once failed to research even Diabolical tech.

Korath researches better, or at least is more reliable then Drengin. They never seem to research Planetary Invasion and always rely on Spore ships. Ironically, given enough time, their soldiering will start to get worse compared to other races. Still I don't think it's a good idea to meddle here, I'm happy they get Spore at all. They got stuck before getting Universal Translator.

Iconians had 2 bad spawns and once were a victim to their great early game production. Overall they are still doing ok.

http://i.imgur.com/rJ44j4N.jpg - note Iconian population compared to their production/research.

http://i.imgur.com/ykqfC54.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4i6pOox.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lKo3lQn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MCH4gzf.jpg

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Quoting SilasOfBorg,

reply 939

@Mabus: really impressed with Torian, Drath, and Korx play lately. The Drath and Korx seem to be more aggressive on the research/factory tech in order to take advantage of the piles of trade/war cash, and the Torians actually have factory tech this game! My gut says we're in a really good place with the AI right now and we should be very careful with further tweaking, at least as far as the early game goes.

Glad to hear it .

The Korx benefit from an AIP11 tweak which helped the Arceans, Altarians. It would have aided the Torians as well but some of their unique techs were getting in the way. With that solved you should see decent/good research.

As to the Drath. All I did was give them a firm kick in the ass to get War Profiteering and I made sure they (and the other AIP8) races stop researching their manufacturing/research tech just shy of 1 or two techs before they finish. This means they'll have a lead in research and industry very early on.

By the look of it the Altarians might need a little bit of extra work as well. My guess is they're over doing it on their unique tech research. I'll see if I can tone that down a smidge and get a slightly better result.

As to the Korath, Yor and Drengin. I didn't do much work on them. Gaunathor's fixes seem to work just fine for the most part. Interesting that they skip Universal Translator though. That might be worth a look. There's no way to force the Korath to grab soldering. When AIP7 has SA Super Annihilator it ignores any and all Invasion tech.

Thanks again for the reports. I'll read them again and see if anything can be adjusted.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Quoting MabusAltarn,

reply 943

There's no way to force the Korath to grab soldering. When AIP7 has SA Super Annihilator it ignores any and all Invasion tech.

What about Planetary Defense? SporeSA obviously doesn't need soldiering as an offensive stat, but to make their core worlds harder to invade it could help....

Quoting MabusAltarn,

reply 943

Interesting that they skip Universal Translator though. That might be worth a look

Me too seeing alot of influence-bonus tiles empty on Yor worlds - because they don't have any building for that researched.

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AIP8 Game 1

Krynn - 18 colonies (2 extreme), 1350 income, Republic, Manufacturing Center, Research Center, economy 3, morale 3, pop 2, Bombardment, weapon tier 2 lvl 1, no x-col. Quite a bad spawn but did great.

Thalan - 36 colonies (8), 2400 income, Democracy, Industrial Adapt. 2, Tech Adapt. 2, economy 4, weapon tier 3 lvl 2, Advanced Troop Mod, all x-col. Nice 300% research tile with Hyperion Matrix on it.

Drath - 23 (0), 1200 income +850 war profit., Republic, Manufacturing Center, Academies, economy 3, morale 1, pop 1, weapon tier 4 lvl 1, Tidal Disruption, extreme colonization,

Terran - 29 (2), 2100 income, Republic, Manufacturing Center, Academies, economy 3, morale 1, pop 2, weapon tier 4 lvl 3, Advanced Troop Mod, toxic 2

http://i.imgur.com/1qojoqN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hQgd93B.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/6I29A1m.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/u9hSuKy.jpg

Game 2

Krynn - 28 (1), 2700 income, Democracy, Factories, Academies, economy 2, morale 3, pop 2, weapon tier 4 lvl 3, Advanced Troop Mod, gravity 2,

Thalan - 39 (4), 2750 income, Democracy, Medium, Ind. Adp. 2, Tech. Adp. 3, economy 3, weapon tier 5 lvl 2, ATM, barren/radioactive/heavy 2

Drath - 11 (0), 700 income + 900 war profit, Republic, Manufacturing Center, Academies, economy 3, morale 1, pop 1, weapon tier 3 lvl 3, Bombardment, no x-col. Started in a corner.

Terran - 36 (9), 3300 income, Democracy, Manufacturing Center, Academies, economy 3, morale 2 (first time someone took Extreme Entertainment, nice), pop 2, weapon tier 3 lvl 2, Stellar Marines, barren/radioactive/toxic 2

http://i.imgur.com/1ob5S5R.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fP0Z3QU.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wpcBusm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RflKVRO.jpg

Game 3

Krynn - 15 (0), 1350 income, Republic, Manufacturing Center, Academies, economy 2, morale 2, pop 1, weapon tier 3 lvl 3, Tidal Disruption, extreme colonization but no x-col. Started in a corner close to Terran and Drath.

Thalan - 22 (0), 3500 income, Republic, Medium, Industrial and Technology Adp. 3, economy 4, weapon tier 4 lvl 4, ATM, radioactive 1. Started in a void with no nearby worlds. Crazy income comes from 2 economy and 1 morale starbases.

Drath - 27 (6), 1350 income+1000 war profit, Republic, Manufacturing Center, Academies, economy 3, morale 1, pop 2, weapon tier 2 level 3, Stellar Marines, aquatic/radioactive 2, barren 1. Had best starting position with 300% and 100% research on their HW.

Terran - 27 (3), 2200 income, Democracy, Medium, Manufacturing Center, Academies, economy 4, morale 1, pop 2, weapon tier 4 lvl 1, Stellar Marines, radioactive/toxic 2,

http://i.imgur.com/0lgtNbB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/NnpNqH3.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/H2IXAuS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1zxRipe.jpg

All AIs done great job. No important tech paths skipped in 3 games. So, here is power rank (my personal opinion):

1. Thalan - are always leading in research and military, strong initial manufacturing, gets important SP fast (Gravity accelerators and Hyper Computers)

2. Torian/Terran/Iconian/Yor - all fall in above average when it comes to economy, military and research (especially Iconians research throughout the games)

3. Krynn/Korath - slighly above average, they can compete quite well with spot 2, and demolish spots 4 & 5.

4. Korx/Drengin/Drath - average races, can get strong if they have favorable positions, but most of the time pose no big threat.

5. Arcean/Altarian - just downright bad. Arcean are unfixable due to their -speed, but Altarians suck so much

This is assuming AIP7s do good on colony rush.

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After 3 games in the 5.3.x branch, here's my high level feedback:

The Thalans and Iconions are extremely tough if you let them get away. The Thalans have a very solid industrial base and the Iconions tend to tech up very fast at a certain point in the mid-game. Thalans grab Planetary Invasion very early, but Iconians still seem a bit reluctant to launch invasions at me. Not sure if it's because they didn't have PI or just prefer to play with all their ships instead.

The overall difficulty level has gone up compared to vanilla TA. The game is now competitive! Of the 3 games i've played, i struggled to the top on game 1, lost a hopeless situation on game 2, and am now desperately fighting for my life in game 3 against empires 3x my size. This is good.

The game is more dynamic and engaging than vanilla TA. Wars break out early now, and they really mean it. Turtling or hoping to be ignored doesn't work well anymore. Each of the games i've played has been an ongoing struggle to survive, much less win. It no longer feels like a monotonous process of click-click-boom-boom.

Tier 1/2 weapon technologies seem very expensive.

More civs are now researching PI, logistics, hulls, and other key fighting technologies. I would like to see logistics be a higher priority for the AI though. If the AI can coble it's weak fighters together into a large fleet, it suddenly becomes a threat.

Thanks to everyone for putting this mod together. It's been enjoyable so far.

+1

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Couple more things I forgot to write down:

I haven't checked in games 1-2, but on 3rd game no one had Power Plants. I don't remember anyone form AIP8 got them in those 3 games, I wasn't paying too much attention to that. Could be just on this occasion. Still, it's a minor tech, as AI don't really utilize PPs that well.

Military Starbase path could use lower TP cost, lower AI Value, or a bit of both. Most of the time AIs get only as far as Starbase Militarization before turn 110, but on one of the games Terran where happy researching Starbase Domination for next 19 turns. They could get a whole new tier of weapons for that TP, which I think is more important for the AI in a long run.

Thalan in one game done the research on Terror Stars - which is 5500 TP, same as getting Federation. AI should never research this tech (it only slows it down), unless we want the player to steal it and goof around.

Starbase Modules: Battle Stations I/II/III modules seem fairly balanced. But, AIs pick hull techs rather late, apart from Iconian and Arcean. Mostly they will get tier 3, 4 or 5 of weapons, before even getting Medium hulls. That leaves their Starbases rather fragile in the early/mid game. When AIs get Medium hulls, their fleets have around 20-70 attack. Suggested changes:

Devastation Beam/Matter Detonators/Atlas Sling (2nd tier 3rd level of weapon techs) - from 5, 5, 5 damage to 6, 8, 7

Subspace Blaster/Star Javelin/Ship Pounder (4th tier 3rd level of weapon techs) - from 7, 7, 7 to 10, 14, 12

A single small ship with tier 4 level 3 weapons can get up to 20 attack without miniaturization. So a fleet of 3 can do anywhere from 40 to 60 damage, taking a starbase in one turn on a good roll. This change will at least make you lose some more of your fighters if you want to destroy it.

Battle Stations IV - from 15/24/18 to 20/30/24 - by the time AI/Player gets Huge hulls, fleets will have anywhere from 70 to 400 attack and 200++ hp. This ensures at least 1 huge ship will be destroyed in exchange.

Repair System - it gives measly +1% repair for 200bc - it's a waste of a constructor and the money. It needs to be buffed a little bit, I don't know, 15-20%?

Starbase Defense Thalan:

Attack Assist Thalan:

Seriously? ^^

+1

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Quoting OShee,

reply 947

Thalan in one game done the research on Terror Stars

We maybe could give this tech an additional bonus (eg. Repair), so it's not totally unuseful for the AI in these rare occasions.

Quoting OShee,

reply 947

Starbase Modules: Battle Stations I/II/III modules seem fairly balanced. But, AIs pick hull techs rather late, apart from Iconian and Arcean. Mostly they will get tier 3, 4 or 5 of weapons, before even getting Medium hulls. That leaves their Starbases rather fragile in the early/mid game. When AIs get Medium hulls, their fleets have around 20-70 attack. Suggested changes:
Devastation Beam/Matter Detonators/Atlas Sling (2nd tier 3rd level of weapon techs) - from 5, 5, 5 damage to 6, 8, 7
Subspace Blaster/Star Javelin/Ship Pounder (4th tier 3rd level of weapon techs) - from 7, 7, 7 to 10, 14, 12
A single small ship with tier 4 level 3 weapons can get up to 20 attack without miniaturization. So a fleet of 3 can do anywhere from 40 to 60 damage, taking a starbase in one turn on a good roll. This change will at least make you lose some more of your fighters if you want to destroy it.
Battle Stations IV - from 15/24/18 to 20/30/24 - by the time AI/Player gets Huge hulls, fleets will have anywhere from 70 to 400 attack and 200++ hp. This ensures at least 1 huge ship will be destroyed in exchange.

Seems reasonable.

Quoting OShee,

reply 947

Repair System - it gives measly +1% repair for 200bc - it's a waste of a constructor and the money. It needs to be buffed a little bit, I don't know, 15-20%?

It's +1 HP, which, if you have no racial repair, equals to around 20% or maybe more.

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Quoting OShee,

reply 947

I haven't checked in games 1-2, but on 3rd game no one had Power Plants. I don't remember anyone form AIP8 got them in those 3 games, I wasn't paying too much attention to that. Could be just on this occasion. Still, it's a minor tech, as AI don't really utilize PPs that well.

I've seen and have captured antimatter PPs in the wild. Built by thalans IIRC.

Quoting OShee,

reply 947

Thalan in one game done the research on Terror Stars - which is 5500 TP, same as getting Federation. AI should never research this tech (it only slows it down), unless we want the player to steal it and goof around.

I think terror stars should just be removed from the game. They are almost useless for human players, certainly useless for AI players. Otherwise, yes; should be unresearchable for AIs.

Quoting OShee,

reply 947

... raising starbase attack values...

Yes please. Battlestations don't provide any real defense as is. I have to always guard them with "real" firepower. If i have to do that, what's the point of wasting modules on battlestations? I've quit installing these entirely.

Counter-argument: AI's will send wave after wave of weak fighters against them, even if they will likely get wiped out.

Quoting OShee,

reply 947

Repair System - it gives measly +1% repair for 200bc - it's a waste of a constructor and the money. It needs to be buffed a little bit, I don't know, 15-20%?

Agreed. 20%.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Quoting leiavoia,

reply 949

Agreed. 20%.

Hmmm, are you aware that this would repair 20 HP/turn for each ship that is in the zone of influence for this starbase?

If I make 2 or 3 MSB of this kind I could basically insta-repair even large hulls within 1 turn and if I get to lure foreign enemies into this array and defeat them lossless with a strong fleet, this fleet would be able to continuue in this forever because the array will keep them at maximum HP forever....

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GalCiv 2 Ultimate Edition Community Update

GalCiv 2 Ultimate Edition Community Update

is now on GOG and Steam! :)