This one machine has 2 installs of 7 Ult 64, 1 of Vista Ult, 2 XP Pro, 2 98 se, and an 8 RTM.

It's not the only computer I have.....the laptop came with 7 Ult 64 ...now has 8.  Another machine has XP Pro, and 7 Ult 32, another has 7 Pro 32 and the last has XP Home.

Probably a few more OS's than the average user....kinda makes GUI comparisons a regular thing....;)

Wow!

Paraphrasing Churchill, "Microsoft always does the right thing, after trying everything else."

LOL...exactly, Doc...;)

benmanns, you have to take into account the "lowest common denominator"...someone working in an office who doesn't care about how things look, or how they work. They only care about getting it done efficiently and as quickly as possible.

That's why W8 for business will have to have a W7 style desktop or a way to get things done quickly... They're used to XP or W7, so that's why Start8 and ModernMix type displays will be necessary in W8/Threshold/W9... however it will be called.

Not many businesses will have a week 'to get used to things' (if then).

They would be far wiser to add Start8 and ModernMix and give a couple of training sessions.

Also, don't forget inertia. MS won't admit defeat easily, and "fixing W8" or coming up with W9 won't be easy. 

Yes, Doc's right...the lowest common denominator...the general user.

MS 'arbitrarily' decides to change Windows [to match some idiot phone interface] and imposes upon each and every public commercial entity/user to SPEND time/money/effort re-educating their workforce.

I'm pretty damn sure I didn't see MS front those companies, etc. to offer to cover the costs they incurred.

No, they didn't...and that's yet another good reason E-I-G-H-T is MS's new way to spell F-A-I-L.

If they have to give training sessions with SD software, doesn't that defeat the whole point?

seleuceia, without the sd software it would probably be a couple of WEEKS of training sessions for each employee including the managers (and the managers would probably NEED an additional month or two) and several months of heavily (3 to 4 times) increased support desk workload due to the major change of interface.

harpo

No...because they still have to learn the differences in W8 and familiarize themselves.

Which is why it was Windows 8 = Bye, bye Ballmer.

That was a good first step.  If MS brings the start menu back, it would be another.  There was a good amount of hype and expectations when MS announced that they'd bring the start button back in 8.1.  It was such a disappointment.

Our software vendors don't support W8/8.1 and they seem to be taking a wait and see approach.  In the meantime, industry can still get new W7 computers.  We're in the midst of replacing ours.  I've recently ordered 15 replacement computers and am getting requests for more at a faster than normal pace.  It's being partially driven by the fear that MS will start forcing us to buy W8.  In a sense then, W8 has been good for computer sales if only because of the specter of having to use it.

It's a shame, since W8 is superior to W7 in some ways.  If it weren't for the dismal UI, I'm sure it would have been widely accepted.

Heartily agreed. 

While i can agree that there will be costs to train employees and that it takes additional modifications to have it run the way it should do on a office PC.
still i cant cant agree with the word fail- the new start is superior yet more ugly over the windows7 startmenu.
(Personaly i thought from the very< start that windows8 was made for a home pc and not targeted for office use since it has these multimedia features.) 
And having that startmenu adds to the rythm of the use of such a system- quick acess to information and fast.
Thats the point im trying to make, for a home system gaming surfing video music and so on windows8 seems spot on, and the startmenu covers almost everything with the liveapps.
Even the Gaming industrie seems to like Windows8 for several reasons obviously.

I can only imagine that the want of such a system as office system is speed and size mem usage... 
But it would need a the standart UI thats why i said there should be 2 versions...thats why i say demand an office OS instead of forcing the old starmenu to win8...

 

Yesterday I read an article about HP. It said that HP is creating classes to teach people how to use Win8. I thought that kind of funny.

It's a safe bet you won't get a single argument from anyone here.

That's all they had to do.....

....and exactly why Stardock came out with Start 8 and Modern Mix ...;)

I think you are exaggerating...

In the workplace, IT is responsible for most of the setup and settings tweaking...employees are simply using software already on the computer and working with a file explorer...sure, they may want to add a few shortcuts and thus will have to know how to make a shortcut on the start screen, but that is a trivial thing to learn...going from the start screen to the desktop, adding shortcuts to the start screen, and learning how to search for programs in W8 is fairly low level, the kind of thing that gets taken care of in a memo (that's what we do here at least, and it seems to work)....

Most employees are not going to need instruction on advanced startup options, setting up networks with the charms bar, cool gimmicks with a touch screen, how to install with UEFI, etc as all those things all fall under IT...they also aren't going to need to know how to use any metro apps since they, being in a workplace, will be sticking to desktop apps (right?)...again, as long as they know how to get to the desktop and know how to find programs by typing their name at the start screen (just like you can do in W7), they will be fine....you can argue all you want that the start screen is ugly, unnecessary, or inefficient, but it is definitely not hard to learn for an employee who simply has to use desktop apps on the computer...

For personal/home use, learning W8 may be an issue since the home user will need to know how to setup a network, change their settings, and install programs....but none of those things are relevant to your typical employee, that all falls on IT...I can see you arguing SD software will help with efficiency or that it simply looks better, but avoiding weeks or months of training is a gross exaggeration...

Now to be fair, I certainly can understand IT personnel needing extended training...that, however, is their job and it happens every time their employer introduces or upgrades to a new OS...going from XP to W7 was a big change, going from W7 to W8 is not any more special....furthermore, training IT people in IT is a far cry from weeks/months of training for all your employees....

Why do I think W8 is easy to learn?  My wife learned how to use W8 in a few hours, and she isn't even used to Windows since she used Mac in the past....as much as I love my wife, she isn't exactly the most technologically adept, yet she didn't need weeks or months of training...but that's just one example of a family member, could be a little biased I suppose....so.....

This past summer I was involved in a training that taught half a dozen different pieces of engineering and scientific software as well as basic programming....the training was 10 days, and most of it was spent on engineering and physics, not software or programming...I witnessed in ten days people with no prior experience with computer programming or physics learn college level engineering concepts, basic C++ programming, and how to use multiple pieces of software used in the engineering workplace...ten days...yet you think most people are going to need weeks if not months to learn how to use a start screen?  I think not.... 

I know all I've provided so far is anecdotal evidence, but I have a feeling that what I'm going to get back is something like "I work in IT and I see how much people struggle with W8 *wave hand* and thus it will take months to train them"...that's the argument that has routinely cropped up before on these forums...that and youtube videos of people "struggling to learn W8"....

Yes....easy if you don't know any better...easy if you have not been conditioned to doing things differently for a decade and a half previously.

And maybe 'IT' handles it in the workplace....but who teaches it to 'IT'?

If you want anecdotes... my wife's IT department couldn't find their bum with both hands...irrespective of what OS it is.  [I think they are trying to manage their collective brain around XP]....;p

Lord have mercy...

now about the HOME version of window HATE, MY issues AS a self employed field computer tech with a large number of senior(usually retired OR self employed business people) customers that can make the corporate IT workload look very LIGHT, and as window HATE insists on using the fucktro interface and then making the user jump throgh several additional hoops to FIND the 'block' for the windows program that they installed (just because window hate decided that it was not going to put it in the main programs collection and the installer did not put an icon on the desktop) then click on the block so that they can THEN go back to the desktop to actually USE the program (to me apps are web based and are to be used inside a web browser ONLY and can therefor be used in the fucktro(which to me is just a limited web browser) interface).

as I usually suggest one of the fucktro minimiser programs like start8, classic shell etc to minimise the mode changing and almost impossible irritations of the fucktro interface for these ordinary users of computers that MS has traind with a start menu over the last eighteen YEARS and the MS says fuck you to all the users that have used their products for over a decade. from this position I am almost suggesting that my costomers leave the windows titanic that has hit the METRO iceburg, BUT as I am NOT familiar with either mac OR *nix I would be losing business, customers and (most important) income if I were to suggest that my customers were to leave the windows titanic.

Precisely.

Learning something from scratch is one thing.

Unlearning what you already know and have become habituated to over time, and relearning a non-intuitive OS is rather different.

More info out about the return of the Start Menu:

http://www.infopackets.com/news/business/microsoft/2013/20131218_full_windows_start_menu_coming_back_report.htm

My thought is that MS needs some help in changing W8.2 or W9 (whatever) into a work friendly and user friendly OS.

The start button and start menu are only a small part of what's really needed. 

For starters, I understand that MS wants one OS across all platforms, but is that realistic? I think what MS should be doing is making a customizable OS...modular. The OS could then be suited more specifically to one device or another. 

For instance, what if there were Work, Entertainment, Communication modules in which different apps suited for Desktop, phone, tablet, phablet, laptop were available in tiers so that resources (scarcer on some devices) wouldn't be hogged. 

Also, what if the ability to work side-by-side was included in the more resource rich devices, or if the user chose side-by-side, the OS would then offer to prioritize processes, etc. to allow this?

In other words, what if the OS was smart enough to inventory the device and offer different apps depending on the priorities of the user, and reconfigurable on demand?

Oi, I resemble that!  A nutter, yes, but I am NOT an OEM [overly experienced masterdebator]

As for Win 8/8.1, I use it 100% of the time.  I have 2 copies if Win 7 x64, 2 Copies of Vista x86 and 1 of x64, 3 copies of XP Pro and 2 copies of 98SE, yet none have seen the light of day since the arrival of Win 8.  Apart from 2 Android tablets, all the PC/communication devices in this house are Win 8/8.1.  I recently picked up a 10" Asus touchscreen notebook with Win 8 for $249.99 and it is feching brilliant, though I will be swapping out the HDD for a SSD to boost its performance some.