Strip to the Core Suggestion List » Forum Post by Tohron

You all want to nerf Strip to the Core into oblivion.

Each race has amazing techs, and doing what you all suggest is just going to make VL weaksauce.

+1

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I have to somewhat agree with Howdidudothat: Strip to the Core is the VL's defining ability. We have to be careful what we do to it.

However, I will agree that something needs to be done, since it is insanely powerful. I like the tying it to a Titan idea, but I still have a sneaking suspicion that the shipboard labs tech may what we actually need to focus on nerfing...

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I just did some more thorough research and re-calculated the time needed for generating the amount of resources given by Stripped to the Core.

Assumptions: Same taxation level for both, 100% allegiance, maximum population and logistics upgrades present, all slots filled with trade ports. Additionally for shortest time scenario: Maximum population tech of all three races (+15% - +60%), maximum trade tech (+30%), maximum trade route length (+67%). Increase all times by 20% if salvaging is researched for SttC.

Credits:

Asteroid: 9-5 minutes
Dwarf: 9-4 minutes
Volcanic: 35-17 minutes
Ice: 19-11 minutes
Desert: 15-8 minutes
Terran: 26-15 minutes

Resources:

The only way to generate more resources without SttC than with it is by stripping an Asteroid. This leaves an Asteroid Belt which does NOT have neutral extractors, so they can neither be captured nor rebuilt. If one type of extractors is not present SttC generates a free amount which cannot be received from this planet otherwise. If extractors are present it takes 11-18 minutes for metal, and 4-6 minutes for crystal to generate the same amount, depending on tech and number of extractors.

Those numbers would be quite balanced if not for the need of a massive inital investment in terms of:

Time
Space
Resources

I very much like the idea of tieing it to the Titan, as this would also mean a big initial investment and help enemies anticipate and prevent use of SttC. Would still apply taxation, though.

EDIT: Since all the assumptions are over-the-top optimistic you might want to factor in the economic potential of an AVERAGE planet. I would go for a planet with half of its slots being trade ports, a medium length trade route, 60% allegiance, 30% taxation, no to low tech. So this would mean current time * 1,3*1,4*1,4, so depending on planet type you would need to 20-90 minutes on average to break even with SttC.

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Quoting bilun,

reply 17

Quoting vyolin, reply 16Based on limited personal experience I would like to throw in my opinion:

I have to digress on the opinion that SttC should be considered an endgame tech/mechanic. While it definitely looks like one, it is countered more or less effectively by culture. Planets you cannot colonize are as blocked to you as are stripped ones to the enemy. Should an enemy manage to shut down or delay your scorched earth advance you may find yourself in an undesirable position: Unable to advance and highly susceptible to attrition tactics. Prime example: Advent loyalist with "auto-culture": Needs frontline culture of your own to repel as capitals alone can't clear a single planet of their culture.

So to make a long story two lines longer: Keeping SttC as a viable mid-game strategy requires striking a fine balance.

...

This would be a viable option if capitalships(which the vasari loyalists generally have a lot of) didn't push back culture so effectively. After a brief wait you can almost always push back the culture enough to colonize with a few capitalships.

Actually stopping the Vasari Loyalist Strip Advance cold with culture isn't really possible. If capitalship culture pushback were nerfed so that the Vasari were forced to attack other sectors to knock out culture buildings before they could realistically colonize it would be a viable counter.

As it is, it's just a short pause while they wait for their fleet to remove the culture so they may colonize.

I have had very little problem in stopping a VL sttc advance as advent building multiple beam turrets with stations to help as well and once VL decide to go full mobil if you halt them for even a little while they falter and are pushed back with minimal effort.

reading through most of the sttc qq threads, its obvious there's just an influx of new sins players who think they're playing CoH or something.

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What about just decreasing the amount of resources it provides? It seems to me the problem is that it just gives you way too many resources (probably more than twice as many as it should) so it's always a no-brainer to strip.

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Quoting Sickerthansars,

reply 30

... once VL decide to go full mobil if you halt them for even a little while they falter and are pushed back with minimal effort.
...

I totally agree with you on this. Still it is difficult to properly deal with the headstart a Vasari gets when he decides to go mobile.

Half an hour to an hour mean nothing in a big map with multiple stars. In single star system though where there's only that single terran planet separating you from the Vasari you don't want him to have even 10 minutes of a head start, let alone 60 when it comes to those big planets. That doesn't have anything to do with CoH or SC2 gamers, it's a matter of bad scaling in a factions key mechanic.

edit: I hold on to what seemd to be the baseline of nerfing this: Let SttC be executed by the Titan, and let it be taxed income.

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Just came up with another adjustment to the original list - instead of any siege damage cancelling the strip, have the initiation reduce planet HP by 75% and prevent it from regenerating. This seems like a fair way to allow players trying to block a strip rush from destroying future territory a chance to save it, while still giving the loyalists a bit of leeway to protect strip attempts when they have a significant numerical advantage.

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Or maybe it gradually streams resources back while depleting hit points - like scuttle, it should return resources based on the % of hit points. That way you'd have to wait until the planet has full health before you can gain the full benefit.

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Since I proposed kind of the same I second Mow Mow's idea. Regarding your comment above, Tohron: Reducing the planet's HP automatically is equivalent to increasing scuttle time. They both increase the window of opportunity for enemy players. That being said I still find your proposals a bit excessive.

As I put forth already SttC scales extremely well with little maps which makes it hard to balance.

So how about a fundamental change:

Make SttC a skill and tie it to the Titan or a structure (Refinery).

Make it work like the Evacuators Drain Planet: Kill population and HP per second, give credits per population killed, resources per HP and kill the planet as usual when the HP reach zero.

May only target own planets of course.

Comments, insults?

Edit: Ability would be only be cancelled by bombing damage so the Vasari can't just drain his planets half-way anytime he feels the need. Or should be able to cancel at will?

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Quoting vyolin,

reply 35

Since I proposed kind of the same I second Mow Mow's idea. Regarding your comment above, Tohron: Reducing the planet's HP automatically is equivalent to increasing scuttle time. They both increase the window of opportunity for enemy players. That being said I still find your proposals a bit excessive.

As I put forth already SttC scales extremely well with little maps which makes it hard to balance.

So how about a fundamental change:

Make SttC a skill and tie it to the Titan or a structure (Refinery).

Make it work like the Evacuators Drain Planet: Kill population and HP per second, give credits per population killed, resources per HP and kill the planet as usual when the HP reach zero.

May only target own planets of course.

Comments, insults?

Edit: Ability would be only be cancelled by bombing damage so the Vasari can't just drain his planets half-way anytime he feels the need. Or should be able to cancel at will?

I think this is a good idea, but instead of worrying about the Vasari half-way draining planets, just set some limit on the amount of resources able to be stripped, and once that is reached, destroy the planet. I like the idea of resources being gained over time, rather than as a big boost, but I don't think it should depend on planet health or population. After all, the resources come from the planets own elements, which are there whether or not the planet has people or infrastructure on it.

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Quoting deathbypie,

reply 36

I don't think it should depend on planet health or population. After all, the resources come from the planets own elements, which are there whether or not the planet has people or infrastructure on it.

Me neither, we could just pretend the guys need to set up a bit of an infrastructure to get the most out of the planet. Yeah I know, trying to convince myself...

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Quoting vyolin,

reply 35

Edit: Ability would be only be cancelled by bombing damage so the Vasari can't just drain his planets half-way anytime he feels the need. Or should be able to cancel at will?

Why couldn't it be a channeling ability that can't be canceled or interrupted? (Only prevented by death of the caster)

That way, if its from the Titan, the VL player runs the risk of the immobile titan being killed first, and same with a structure. It'd synergize in a way with the increased build speed research as well, if one is into that. It'd also give enough time to respond in case of a Kostura + siege frigates/colonizer + strip.

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Side note: Stripped to the Core doesn't benefit from Salvage Efficiency although the tech states otherwise. Can someone confirm this?
I had the intention of reducing SttC-values to 0.3 of their originals and move it down the tech tree while adding a set of salvage techs further up restoring the old amount over several tech tiers. Doesn't work though.

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Quoting Mow Mow,

reply 34

Or maybe it gradually streams resources back while depleting hit points - like scuttle, it should return resources based on the % of hit points. That way you'd have to wait until the planet has full health before you can gain the full benefit.

This sounds rather interesting, because it'd remove the main issue with Stripped to the Core.

The other is more an overall design issue, the capship labs, and I like the idea from the other ship to make them non-stacking with buildings, only the ones which you have more of counts.

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Quoting vyolin,

reply 39

Side note: Stripped to the Core doesn't benefit from Salvage Efficiency although the tech states otherwise. Can someone confirm this?
I had the intention of reducing SttC-values to 0.3 of their originals and move it down the tech tree while adding a set of salvage techs further up restoring the old amount over several tech tiers. Doesn't work though.

Salvage Efficiency only affects structures. I believe "planetary structures" or something like that is indicated by the tech. So nah, shouldn't affect Strip.

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The description has a bulletin saying "Planets -> All". So I just thought, you know 0

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Just added a different option for Strip to the Core duration - basing the time on current allegiance. I suppose it might work as a standalone from the current patch, if the devs are interested in that.

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