Half the reason you can't believe anyone could believe in the 'mumbo jumbo' 'magic' of the Bible is because you don't know what it actually says.  If there IS a God, this is the God I would want there to be.  A God that doesn't leave the answer in my frail, human hands, but in His own hands... he took care of getting me to heaven, I don't have to do anything more than accept the gift.

If you think that all sounds way too easy, you're right.  It is way too easy.  But that's also part of God being God - He went out of His way to make it easy for us.  There is no huge barrier keeping people out of Heaven - it is only themselves that do it.  And He is not going to take those who don't want to be with Him. 

You keep talking about God being a license to do anything and church masters having authority to speak for Him, but only the Bible has authority to speak for Him.  My view is, since I know there is a God, and I know He's THIS powerful, I don't believe that God would let humans ruin his Word that He inspired to be written for our benefit.  He's big enough to keep that from happening.  So the written Word of God that I have is actually what God wanted to tell me.  Or else, it would not exist.

Through all the times that people have tried to stamp out the Bible, I think if it were not a special book protected by God it wouldn't exist, just as Israel would no longer exist unless they were a protected and sacred people group to God.

A Christian, in the truest sense of the word, is someone who has accepted the gift of Jesus Christ taking the death penalty of our sin away from us.  That is the only definition of a Christian.

This just doesn't mean anything to me because I believe that "Nobody can get to heaven at all" and besides the religious fundamentalists that crashed jets into our buildings knew without a doubt that they were going to heaven (all that pussy and all) because their fact book says they will ... regardless of what you an outsider thinks. I don’t think we want to have a discussion on what I think about the worst kind of liar. At least I am not going there now.

That is not how I see it. You may pay your time or do your penance … but the court system NEVER forgets. Society at large (mostly) is satisfied (mostly) but it will legally follow you everywhere you go and interfere in all your business depending on the scope of the ‘infringement’. I do not think it beneficial to compare your god and ‘his’ ultimate dictates with human endeavors or processes, just a thought.

Yeah, well, God DOES forget.  On purpose.  Pretty neat!

Anyway, that's the gospel.  That's the thing that people have died for for ~2000 years now.  I would, if I were you, consider it much more closely than you appear to, because it's a big deal.  The Bible isn't about a code of ethics or a way to live - it includes that, but that's not what it's about.

If only the Bible has authority to speak for Him, then why do you (and why should I) need some robe wearing dogmatist to properly explain it? As far as a god that interferes in the minute by minute business of every particle or energy in the universe (but especially us), that is ludicrous and well beyond the scope or interests of first century world view and thus the scriptures. Historically this was never much of a problem … until we became technologically competent enough to explore life’s mysteries through our own prowess. Biblically speaking, today we have tons of the ‘fruit of knowledge’. I agree that through all the times people have tried to stamp out the Bible … it is just that we now have factual information that disavows every bit of it, and we are only going to get smarter. This is JU on the modern internet and you aren’t having this discussion with sunday school children or to those with a 1st century world view. That is why your Bronze Age mentality doesn’t work anymore. If you can find a way to view the first 5 or 10 minutes of this clip, you would see why I have so little of an opinion on faith of any kind ... but surely not faith in the supernatural. 

Faith: Pretending to know things you don't know" by Dr. Peter Boghossianhttp   http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=qp4WUFXvCFQ&NR=1

 

Faith is the ability to pretend knowing things you don’t know!!! Like evolution and cosmology for example.

PS - there is more than one computer in the world.

I don't 'need' a robe wearing etc.  Why do you need a lab-coat wearing scientist to tell you about evolution, or even about why creation doesn't work?

Because, instead of doing it ourselves, we have others, even PAY others, to do the study for us so we can live our lives.  So I pay my pastor to study God's word full-time (as opposed to my part-time study, which is necessary!) and you listen to your lab-coat wearing scientists tell you about the way the world works.  How is it any different?

Also, I'm still waiting for this factual information that disavows the Bible.

Everything you said is just argumentative and pointless. You told me several times now that the bible has to be 'properly' decoded’ because people are too stupid to do it themselves. I assumed you meant the biblical writers and other upstarts like the Pope all of whom wear robes and wear funny little hats ... I didn't realize you considered yourself their equal, sorry. All the nonsense about paying people to invent antireligious knowledge is so biblical of you. All you have to do is pick up your first century fact book (a dollar at the flea market) and answer every question possible with "GOD DID IT", some investment there. Then sit through enough brain washing sessions and presto a new god made Christian is come to us born again, amen. And just as silly, you think that all of us need a fully outfitted lab to cross check the pros so you can disavow our results too.

Well don’t hold your breath for sure. With a casual flick of your “god did it’ hand, you disavow everything that the best human minds in the world believe and have dedicated their lives to proving; as much about the real world (the only one we have) as they can, many of whom are quite religious themselves. You don’t even believe the religious scientists considering them fallen having been duped by Satan and his evil science. And of course all my arguments along with them too, all down the theological toilet. I don’t care how much you want to disparage me or my opinions because that’s all they are opinions, yours and mine. And as such they are meaningless to the rest of the world and in your case the scientific world in particular. There is nothing anyone could possibly offer you as proof because you just don’t need any and don’t want any … seemingly for anything. Are you sure you see nothing wrong with this attitude???

Tess, here's what you do with the Bible.  You read page 1.  It says something, you decide it means 'this'.  Then, you read page two, and you decide it means 'that', which conflicts with what you thought it said on page 1.  So you decide it's contradictory of itself, instead of critically thinking about it to figure out if there is a third interpretation which fits with what the Bible actually says as opposed to what you decided it means.  If there IS a way for them both to be true, that is probably what the Bible meant.  If there ISN'T, then it's contradictory.  But you don't bother with trying to reconcile them.  That's all I meant by properly interpretting - you don't need a degree or a robe to do it in most cases.  There are some things that are harder to understand than others, of course.

Also, you continue to talk about how you can't offer anything as proof, and then you don't offer anything.  The exception being videos I've already expressed that I cannot watch.  Perhaps another medium, like written word?

You say you want to talk about evolution, but when I bring up anything about it, you tell me I don't know anything about evolution - then don't explain how I'm wrong - and then you tell me I don't know what an atheist is.  Why aren't you at all forthcoming with some sort of explanation to tell me why I'm wrong about my ideas of what evolution is?  If we're talking about something different, why do you keep attacking ME as a person instead of clarifying what your point is and how it is supported, and how what I'm saying isn't relevant?

 

 

Hi GFT...glad your mom is doing better too.

My point about human corruption was primarily just to state that human beings do fail and fall and religion isn't a necessity of or the cause for that.

The point about the writers of the bible being fallible and subject to the same weaknesses is an excellent one.  I had the same concerns myself--even after being a Christian for some time.  It took some extraordinary circumstances for me to get a personal understanding there.

As to why I decided that "Jesus is the Way"--that requires a personal testimony--which is interestingly what the bible itself says is the only thing we have to offer the world regarding why we believe.  What you're really saying is, "Share your testimony" when you ask me about that.  I get that a lot but the fact is, most debaters actually don't want to hear that no matter what they say.  

Let me give it some thought and I may post an account of it in a separate thread or on my own site.  I'll want to mull it over some first.  That isn't something I flippantly throw out as a conversation piece--especially in a public venue of strangers with no real interest other than derisive inquiry.

Without explaining things but in way of some explanation:  the bible is given for the same reason you have someone take a message rather than tell you from memory what someone else said...or for the same reason a detective interviews multiple, prospective witnesses at the scene of the crime in order to assemble comparative notes that lead to clues through there details and similarities.

If the bible had been assembled "at a go" by a single person like Mary baker Eddie's "Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures", "The Urantia Book", "The Book of Mormon" or the Quran I'd be more questioning of any trustworthiness of it.  What makes the bible interesting is that it is a thread of continuous thought that spans centuries and multiple societies and that no single portion of it is complete without the other portions.  That's a huge discussion in and of itself and I don't think I can do the research for it becasue it starts with ancient Jewish history and works to the present covering several academic areas.

Here's the simple solution:  the bible (as in the Old and New Testaments) presents Jesus along with a set of conditions required to personally discover him.  If someone follows those conditions or has experiences in life that intuitively lead them to follow them and then has an encounter that plainly says, "Jesus" to them...well that sort of gives credibility to the bible as a whole to that person from that point forward.

It's a bit like the Matrix: "Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is.  You have to see it for yourself.".

An encounter with Jesus isn't conditioned thinking or a religious meme stereotyped into a society (though these things exist).  It's an actual experience.

Most people ask, "What's your experience?"--few actually want to hear it.  Pearls and swine.

I offer proof all the time but religious folk just refuse to accept it as anything besides destructive wistful thinking with no merit at all. I can no more make you receptive to reality than I can that the bible is not what you think it is. But you suffer from confirmation bias where you only read literature from people who already agree with you, or just as in the bible, you dismiss or excuse the distasteful parts. The only thing you seem to know about the outside world is what you read in your hate mail … which is quite obvious by the way. I cannot talk to you about evolution because it is apparent you are clueless on the subject and I am tired of you dismissing everything I believe is with a simple dismissive “evolution doesn’t work”, end of story. Unlike you I have read the opposing views offered by religions and their bibles and I have made up my own mind based on my personal experiences and investigation … just too many inaccuracies, inconsistencies and blatant untruths for my tastes. I couldn’t continue going through life with absolute blinders on so I decided to get real and shelve the bible and started looking at reality from a realistic standpoint … and I will never go back. Just read anything (something) that doesn’t come stamped ‘approved for Christian reading’ by your in crowd. If you keep doing and reading the same nonsense, you will never get your head ‘out’ long enough to realize there is a real world out here in which real things happen for which we have real explanations for and we have sufficient proof to back it all up … and you just have your ancient fact book. Do what you like and believe all the fantasies you desire, it’s no skin off my nose. 

There isn't any way (just read them for content) ... I don't accept probably what the bible meant and god’s unerring word in the same sentence ... it is just plain contradictory so where is the problem??? Instead of running to and fro trying to cobble together some manipulation or another, all you had to say was, geese sure seems strange, I wish I knew what could have distracted the writer, or whatever. If you continually find yourself in the precarious position of trying to make unclear contradictions into anything besides what they are … you might be in the wrong business.

 

 

 

It's not contradictory to me, because I didn't make up the original nonsense meanings you attribute to it, such as 'God rested - therefore God got tired'.  Since I never added the 'God got tired' to the 'God rested', it makes sense to me that He rested because He was finished, whereas to you that contradicts his all-powerfulness spoken of elsewhere - because you made up some meaning first.

 

 

Jythier, could you please explain the realistic logic for this statement considering there are many religions, many bibles and many different words from the gods: "Your bible is the inerrant word of everyone's god because your bible says so"??? It seems that everything in your bible makes sense to you ... but we will have to take one issue at a time.

My Bible contains the only plan of salvation that doesn't require anything from man.  This means that Biblical salvation doesn't actually require any change of behavior in order to achieve it.  Think about that for a little bit.  Why would someone writing a fairy tale meant to change behavior have a salvation plan that doesn't require it?  One wouldn't do that.  All the other religions, all the other books, they all require some sort of behavioural change BEFORE salvation.  Not Biblical Christianity.  That's what sets it apart, and makes it unfathomable for the purposes you seem to attribute to it, and no human mind could ever come up with such a plan.

I cannot touch your spirituality nor would I want to, it is your personal experience and you are entitled to it … as we all are. However your extraordinary circumstances do not have any bearing on the inaccuracies and deceptions (there for everyone to see) in every bible. I wasn’t talking about the way of Jesus; I was talking about Jesus himself as a man-god. Had you called him Tom, Dick or Harry there wouldn’t be any problem at all … but you decided that Jesus was your god and it can have nothing to do with anything besides the Christian bible and the NT… and I just believe that to be phony, as they all are. You know as I do that everyone else’s gods and bibles are bogus … I just add your god and bible onto the impossible pile … and you don’t for your own reasons. I cannot refute your personal experiences but I can and will refute the book that is responsible for them. I may at some time meet someone’s god, but I cannot begin to visualize what he would even look like or be called … but I am damn sure it won’t be the guise of a biblical YHWH or Jesus simply because the bibles aren’t factual or historical documents and they can only work through magic manifested in the minds of the faithful. I have no idea whatsoever who wrote, compiled, translated, modified and produced the first viable copy. We have a difference of opinion if this is your idea of many varied participants making it appear real. This is not a paper trail I can accept as the inerrant word of the god of the universe.

I think that there is no other god available to you as in America, god and Jesus are one and the same to the believer and the disbeliever. Anyone concerned over the god issue would envision Jesus just because there are no other options. And anyone who received a mental visit from god would assume this persona, how could it be otherwise. Anyway, once a person becomes convinced god is real, they pick up the only known document that describes him and they spend the rest of their lives arguing against reality because they feel compelled by their vision to support this error filled document all the while thinking they are defending god as if he needed it. But they are just replacing an unerring god with an errant book. As far as I can see The Bible is the Christian god because nothing that qualifies as all knowing would have anything to do with the dishonesty or deceit found inside all bibles. Any Tom, Dick or Harry and the bible has no real meaning. I am willing to discuss your experiences, just don’t expect me to believe them, I am too ingrained in the real world now and have no use for magic in any guise, sorry. But I do have a good ear and no longer concerned if the religious extremist infringe ... I am that confident now.

What I believe is impossible, can't possibly relate to you, is already fully understood by you and can't be true or believe? Not really much point in sharing anything personal there--which was my point beforehand.

O.K. 

I'd leave Jesus completely out of the equation and just define God as the Universe or Nature or Whatever if that lined up with my own experiences--but it doesn't.

As to the bible--it has to reflect my experience to be of any use to me and so far it has.  Go figure. Seems to really work for a lot of other people too--hypocrites aside.

We all choose.

Well I see there is no point in carrying this half of a discussion any further, sadly. I have never told you that you were wrong. I have never told you how to live your life or what to believe in. I have never told you what you have to change to be accepted by me (???). I never told you that you could only understand me if you had my own personal delusions ... I just recommended any old encyclopedia (except the Catholic one of course) for some clarification. And I have never told you that you are prohibited from believe in whatever you want because I don't believe it too. In fact, the only thing I have told you was that I do not believe in your god and one of the main reasons for it is because I believe that ALL bibles are works of fiction and only promotes mysticism, nothing more. I had thought you were fundamentally different than the typical hook line and sinker Christian ... but I can see I was wrong. I tried to discuss this privately with you in the past to no avail. So don’t worry about me or my hypocritical ass, I am and will continue to do just fine.

So since you have proven yourself to me for the second time (won't be a third) ... I will tell you a thing or two that I wouldn't do normally not wanting to damage your frail personal religion and all. You have no use for organized religion because you have your own individual religion that only you can possibly accept because only you (in your mind) have had a proper personal chat with Jesus who I presume told you all about the things he should have told mankind two thousand years ago. Simple things mind you like wash often, boil your water, the earth is not flat, the sky is more than a painted picture etc. Not only are you intolerant of the fools who believe the bible to be perfect (even though it discusses the god you have chosen for yourself), but even they are too stupid to understand or accept your private religion, either. Since it appears you cannot even have a discussion unless your ‘beliefs’ are assumed true up front, I will say adios ... oops in a minute.

This is all I said … IMO it cannot, or it can be used but only if one feels compelled to try and justify a biblical god like YAWH or Allah because they have this book too and it “really works for a lot of other people too.”. But since your personal beliefs trump that of everyone else, the rest of us are just wrong because you know better. Well I like Horus myself and there is not one hint of evidence you can possible procure to prove that my fabricated “personal god” is an abomination or nonexistent because I have a book that tells me nothing besides the complete truth and it seems to really have worked for a lot of other people too, go figure … Yes indeed we all choose, so adios amigo, enjoy life because it is too short to squander on made up nonsense.

You aren't having a conversation or discussion here GFT...you're simply talking out loud to yourself.  That's not why other people are trying to participate in these threads.

 

What planet do you live on? At what point does Christianity not demand the complete and absolute slavery of the entire human species, believer and nonbeliever alike. You have all the free choice you seem to need, but what is it that you are free to choose? The answer of course is absolutely nothing unless it conforms to your masters (in the Vatican) whims. Your god didn't exist 4.7 billion years ago when the earth formed simply because man hadn’t evolved yet, so none of the gods could have been invented then. I use clips when attempting a discussion with a bible swallower for two main reasons. First, they will not believe anything I say (even if it agrees with them) just because I don’t use “god” in any (every) explanation I give, so clips adequately relate my views (or I wouldn’t use them). This way you can just deny the evidence related in their hard work and experience, with one wave of your god inspired hand. And then I don’t have to listen to them whine over every ‘key’ word I use, for pages on end. And in your case, I enjoy listening to a man of god with the infinite wisdom of the bible, whine about how they are incapable of figuring out how to watch them. What’s the matter, subject not addressed in the bible, no internet or computer how to’s or whatever. Proof of human evolution in a nutshell for all to see, or not?. If you find this proof lacking just because you need to know how the first living molecule was formed 3.7 billion years ago, then fooy on you.

Human evolution and missing links (Meet the family)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=sZ2WoHFc7eE&NR=1

 

 

Actually psychology deals with the sensorimotor, emotional, and vegetative (as in: dealing in metabolic control) mind as well. There's where it overlaps with physiology and medicine, physics, information science. It also deals with social phenomena (as they contribute to build your mental outline) and there it connects with sociology, anthropology, linguistics, etc.

An interesting take on the subject of knowing and believing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_de_Finetti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherence_%28philosophical_gambling_strategy%29

Actually neither is true: psychology as studied by most is simply a collection of theories, but most is not all. Studied and practiced scientifically, psychology has answers for many questions, and many questions without answers. On the other hand questioning religious answers is a commendable activity, if you do it with high levels of objectivity and modesty. Infact, questioning is necessary.

Unfortunately, this isn't so. You do need a PhD to learn many justifications as to why stealing is wrong, and also, more than a PhD to learn to compare those answers and resolve the questions they pose. Of course, it is possible to get another kind of answer as to why you personally feel stealing is wrong, but that is not about causes, effects and reasons, but about affects.

It's a very complex matter. To simply put it, good and evil can be adjudicated to looking at the consequences with open eyes and open heart.

 

You've already shown that you are completely out of touch with what the Bible says.  It's funny how much you disbelieve something when you don't even know what it says.  It's magic, and Jythier couldn't possibly know what it actually says... he gives a reason that his faith is above all others, no way, that can't be true... did you look at what the Bible said when you asked that?  No, you just assumed, again, that you knew something about it, when you really have no idea what you're talking about.  It's very annoying.

Also, who cares what the Vatican says?  He's just a human like the rest of us, and certainly not the head of my faith.  In fact, anyone who says they're the head of my faith is laughed at, except for Jesus, who IS the Head.  Again, you assume something that isn't true about my faith to show that it is wrong!

It's the communication style of a dictator.  What you say has no importance to what she says most of the time.  Mostly, she posts videos (relevance unknown) but sometimes she'll actually converse, and by converse, I mean she'll quote something, say it's wrong, explain why from her extremely limited viewpoint into Christianity as I know it, which is misguided at best and slanderous at worst, and then think she's won and I believe in 'magic'. 

Go peddle your Bayesian nonsense elsewhere!  

I have never said otherwise and I have no idea why other come here and neither do you, obviously. I am not here to change anyone else's mind or to placate them and I am not obligated to mollycoddle people because their feelings might get hurt. I am here to express my own thoughts and conclusions (and actual for really proof) because I haven’t figured how to do it any differently. All I have told you is that I don’t believe the bible (which applies to your god by default). But you and your fellow crusaders have done nothing but tell me I am wrong at every point (screw the evidence) but it doesn’t overly bother me … seemingly just you??? That I am not sympathetic to the fantasies of others; how could I when I don’t have any of my own that relate to reality? That the only truth in the universe is revealed within YOUR specific crusty old book (screw the rest of them, the Christian way) and because you believe it true (or anything else YOU imagine) and without a single fault in it mind you, all without a lick of proof, for any of it. So based on the preponderance of your biblical ‘reality’ which is anything but, I am just supposed to drop all my personal beliefs (60 years’ worth) and humbly conform as you have done??? I know exactly why you and your chosen peers shy from the truth, I just don’t know why you feel I HAVE to do likewise? And besides what is it that everyone else blogs for if not to express themselves. I have no use for any god figure that precludes reason from the discussion (for obvious reasons) and who would curse all with death if they don't believe in him so much that even common sense and logic are not allowed to be used. You do know what “hook, line and sinker means right … I just don’t swallow anymore having given ‘that’ up a while ago.

 

I just came here to share within the topic given--from my own perspective. Not to prove or accuse you of being wrong.

If you actually are creating threads solely to express your views--state so in the OP and we won't waste our time.  What you really should do is create a blog.  Public forums are just that--forums for public discussion.

What you are essentially doing is creating a post so you can troll.  It's really tacky.

Your topic is Epistemeology.  From the wiki (for convenience) that encompasses:

Philosophically examining the questions:

• What is knowledge?
• How is knowledge acquired?
• To what extent is it possible for a given subject or entity to be known?

It's a bit hard to believe your view is the only valid one within that scope.