hey what about unfinished post do you not understand? I had to transit to work to finish this and you swoop in.  I'm not too surprised that you are ready to take any credit for changes that I make, but lets just ignore your annoying post because it is irrelevant and will only make sense if you view the "edits". 

anyways I agree that use of the analogy was poor, yet i was in the middle of drafting this and hadn't decided which way to go on this.  Naturally your post only confirmed my doubts about it.  Things don't have to look pretty when you are assembling them.

For the most part, my post was directed at yourself. And there's really no need to play the "what don't you understand about statement XYZ" card. I understood perfectly well that your post was unfinished.

What I also understood was that you had an incredibly poor choice of words for your analogy- one that could very easily bring a great deal of flaming posts down on your thread, and violently derail it.

If you have a doubt about posting an analogy such as the one that you had doubts about- then it is by far better to NOT post it. A weaker analogy is far better than an offensive one that derails the topic of conversation.

Working out these sorts of issues and balancing the six factions/races is part of what the Beta is all about.

because people don't know how to play as advent and tec does not make the vasari strong. Early game the vasari are super strong but thats just it-- mobility comes at a price and a late game tec fleets will out number vasari or advent supported by desciples for anti-matter will minimize damage recieved and you will say "wtf is this-i have a stronger fleet!". Ask the guys who get there HC fleets and lrf fleets get raped by Masterial with just caps and defense vessels. 

Vasari are super strong because they don't need to play nervous but play it calm and wield a powerful fleet. There fleets are small but deadly which means to overcome them the other races nervously rush to storm them with more numbers and ability based advantages. Your tec gets the hoshiko -deadly unitility cruiser and so is a holy trinity for advent with plenty of anti-matter reserves. Its the know how that matters and the fixes in rebellion will make vasari weaker. Just wait and see -its gonna be the year of the advent-the race branded weak for so long. 

I was trying to be as diplomatic as possible and also not start a flamewar or derail the thread. That's all. I do find the analogy to be extremely offensive- but I considered my own personal feelings on the matter to be irrelevant in pointing out that posting said statement was a monumentally bad idea.

By far, I would never attempt to defend his stance- my own comments were, as I said, intended to be as diplomatic as possible in addressing the issues with his statements, whilst also trying to keep flamewar forecasts to a minimum.

Eh, I like Sins because I can set it up, and have hours-long campaigns. Usually with a little bit of internal monologue/dialogue (I remember one game where I internally voiced the news services of the capital world informing the populace about what was happening out in the 'boondocks').

Multi has some, but not much, interest for me. It also doesn't help that a fair bit of my gaming time is consumed by other games, like EVE Online (which can be borderline Sins-like, IMO).

I'm sure the other races will get some uber stuff too.  It might not be as cut and dry as you're thinking.

It's all speculation right now anyway.

Bionic man strikes again!

Vasari have distinct advantages that allow them to enjoy the "ease" of play you tout as superior.  This ease of play is precisely the problem, as it is not based upon player skill, but upon inherent combined strengths of the vasari race.  There were tests done a while back where people online were not allowed to play vasari as a race for one single game, and people were freaking out because they knew that without the vasari inherent strengths they wouldn't even be competitive.  I wouldn't freak out if I had to play another race, because they are easy, and vasari are the easiest to play.  The few times i've enjoyed playing as vasari vs skilled players who had chosen to play advent, i found it funny because i knew every trick the advent fleet was capable of and could just take it easy and not worry.  Advent suffer a lack of options/weak economy.  They go together, as a stronger economy opens up the options.

Also, people know how to play advent and TEC very well.  Vasari are actually the weakest race in the beginning of a multiplayer game.  This weakness is only apparent when they aren't blessed with a plethora of neutrals, which 9/10 times they acquire enough neutrals to make them competitive or dominant against their nearest enemy. Naturally they have to not be a noob and long fight for neutrals at the beginning of the game. Even when fighting for neutrals against other races their scouts are so fast they will hold those neutrals much longer then other races because they only have to build roving scout groups to snipe expensive colony ships( a fix for this would be increasing scout antimatter costs, and initial scout construction costs to bring speeds closer to the other races, in effect reducing the vasari advantage, not wiping it out). after their initial investment of say 10 scouts in the very start of the game and monitoring a few neutrals they can hold quite a few and gain an easy and sometimes massive advantage.  Remember, this is just an advantage gained using little to no skill, spam small group of units, get MASSIVE resource return.  Advent players, having no eco MUST win in small wars of attrition to whittle away an enemy fleet or they will lose.  That takes skill, and every credit is well earned.  Not practicing this "reverse economy" will get you frakked in online multiplayer games and only the most skilled players can really play advent. TEC have a naturally built in cheap economy which fits their cheap and relatively weak ships, so the TEC maintain balance with the advent and the vasari. 

On vasari mobility.

Mobility is quite cheap when compared to when it becomes avaliable. It really only becomes researchable in the late game and you only need 2 structures built to make it work, or one starbase and one upgrade and a building, which in the end game is VERY easy to come by.  When online games reach this point the cost is not the issue, and is not really a factor in the balance, its all about fleet capability.  The end game depends on how FAST you are, since everyone can build more fleet.  The vasari fleet has the firepower to kill the fastest, the fleet movement to attack and defend everywhere, and the best turtling capability.   Considering they have very little weakness at the start of the game, the vasari race is inherently overpowered.

For the record, I play advent quite calmly, advent players have to think ahead the farthest to even have a chance.  Playing advent has improved my game immensely because I figured if i played the easiest race I would never improve.  I rarely play with other advent players online, because you have to be damn good to play as advent to even have a chance.  Most can't cut it and quickly run back to their respective race.  I also believe that is one of the reason advent have relatively poor ally support compared to the TEC and the vasari, with far more situational diplomacy ship abilities and weak starbases, along with the weakest set of diplomacy based upgrades.  Developers even got rid of anima pact, which was useful for making your overpowered vasari allies completely dominate with their bomber spam.  Yet another simple developer fix that makes it so advent aren't even really needed to be team players.  The only way to be a team player as advent is to give your fleet to your allies, help them, be there, watch their moves, time your ships to coincide when it matters.

With the vasari, its easy to help your allies.  Most of the time you just need to build a starbase on one of the important choke points and you are looked at as a savior.  Most cost efficient use of credits in the game.

note, VASARI SHOULD NOT BE NERFED ADVENT AND TEC SHOULD BE BUFFED!

TEC buffed slightly and advent buffed a decent amount.

i'll agree that a tec with neutrals is a mean beast indeed, and changes to how maps are randomized would be great.  I've noticed that vasari players almost always start out with decent numbers of neutrals nearby in 5v5s, something around 9/10 times, as i have already mentioned.  The "roulette" only exists in short range, after even a few minutes the vasari will get the neutrals in the middle, as they are always there.  SO, what weakness?  Vasari players just sad that their cheap starbases can be killed by TEC quickly.

And if spamming is boring then why do you love to spam your kanraks quar?  lol you are the one full of crap...as advent you at least have to spam different ships.

anyways i bring up valid points about situations that do influence the game production. 

Developers allowing titans early will throw game balance off a lot, making turtling more effective since repairing high hitpoint high armor ships without fear of loss will always improve turtling.  This means TEC will rock at it, as we already have read, and advent well be so so at it, and vasari will still rock at turtling because, wow, effective mobile starbases + titan = good defense against enemy fleet + titan.  TEC getting an early game titan? yeah they will be able to turtle eco with impunity now and it will probably make them very overpowered.  Considering all the press that the tec titans have got, and now the press that vasari titans are getting, i highly suspect that the advent titans are the last, and quite frankly, the least in the idea pool.  The other cool stuff has been designed and added, and i don't doubt that advent might get a few cool abilities but i fear they won't create the kind of killer combos the other races will have.  I did assume the design philosophy behind the races will stay relatively the same, after all.

Vasari and TEC can actually provide a mid game healing advantage for the attack, and advent fleet support is slow to acquire, moderately effective, and forget healing as its tech lvl 6, costs an assload, and may or may not work as the developers have sucked at fixing this problem for years.

  Vasari turtle till they have supreme movement advantage and its game over yay.  Who cares if the TEC / advent can be uncrackable at one world when the vasari will just pick you apart everywhere else with lightning speed.  This expansion is going to add greater defense potential then even entrenchment allowed for. 

Don't tell me i'm full of shit when you very well know that a mobile homeworld as vasari will be relatively unkillable in the end game.

Best LRF is a maybe...LRMs are certainly more powerful and more economical early game, and tend to perform better against frigates (excluding Advent)...against caps, however, late game kanraks are clearly the winner, and if you're going against Advent (buffed with shield mitigation from tech and culture) then kanraks are definitely on top...overall I'd say it's a wash, since kanraks are better late game and against caps while LRMs are better early game and against frigates...

Best carrier cap is also a maybe...Sova rushing is brutal, but mid and late game, the Halcyon and Skirantra are definitely superior...Sovas don't scale well, and embargo only benefits you offensively...meanwhile, the Halcyon and Skirantra bring excellent abilities useful throughout all stages of the game...

Best colony cap is another maybe....the Akkan certainly has the best colonize ability, but the Progenitor and Jarrasul combat abilities are more powerful in combat...that's not to say the Akkan's abilities aren't good, but malice, shield regen, and nano-disassemblers are always useful in combat while targeting uplink mainly only shines when SBs are involved...

You claim TEC has the best LRF, carrier, and colony cap, but that's a pretty tough argument to make conclusively...early game, you certainly are right, but late game the Vasari and Advent carrier/colony caps really shine...and late game, LRMs really don't dominate over kanraks...

I don't know what you really mean by best hoshiko...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean best repair cruiser...but that really is only true early game...overseers are much better late game at keeping caps or SBs alive, and guardians are also pretty good at protecting fleets or very important ships...

All of these TEC advantages you point to have one thing in common: TEC is favored early game.  Late game is a different story, and I don't think a blanket statement like "TEC is best at everything" is really justified...

Furthermore, TEC do not have the best SB (Orkies are much better early game, and Transcencia's dominate the late game) nor does TEC have the best anti-bomber abilities...both jam weapons and TK push are far superior than flak burst in disrupting bombing runs and providing actual SC cover...furthermore, TK push does almost as much damage as flak burst, but costs less AM and has greater range and prevents bombing runs over a small area for a limited time...flak burst only competes at lvl 3 and even then you really need 2 Kol's to pull it off well...

The only blanket statements of yours I'd agree with is that TEC have the best economy and the best anti-module ship...everything else either only applies early game or not at all....

Wrong wrong wrong, all wrong.

I know what is your problem,  and i pointed it already several times. U have no idea what im talking about, seeing sins from your limited perspective. U dont see the true power and right use of abilities  what your post just showed and proved.

That is the reason you souldnt talk about multiplayer balance. U have no idea what r u talking about.

Ill make an futile attempt of enlightin you.

LRM-best, early and late game. Do not compare 1:1 to carnaks, its 1,5 to 1. Fully upgraded lrm will always kill karnaks. Ask skilled tec if you dont belive me. Tec has stone armor. And for every 100 karnaks u get 150 lrms. definitly best.

Sova- superior to skintra and hallcion. Its not only embargo, it misille platform whith is very very usefull early and mid game and then lv 6 ability, let u  spamm like crazy.

Akkan-king of the field. Its best not beacuse of colo abilities. Akkan = no enymy caps on the field , no problem with red button cause of range bonus and, man lv6. u jump in kill something press the button and slowly leave showing emyny a finger. Nothing can stop you and hurt you. Let u run form any heat or build sb with 100 enymy carriers on the field.

Hoshiki-superrior to overseer in every aspect of the game. Hoshi has intelligent healing script, u dont have to manualy use oit as overseer ,  and late game can dissable enymy fleet. I assume u have never seen 50 hosikos with demobots

Is much cheaper then overseerr so again if u want to compare, compare 1 overseer to 1,5-2 hosikos.

Sb with red button- u know why its best? u never know if it has it or no. basicly u cant attack tec SB with conventional fleet. And u cant hurt it with bombers if enymy has kols and hangars. Avent SB abilities can be see cause u see antimatter of sb. Tec has no sign of rb, no warning, nothing. Its like immunity.

Kol and flak burst is also best, Its not about range, its  about combo. 2-3 kols can kill all your bombers and will get xp from it. they will constantly leve new kols if you kill old untill u will run out of bombers. Hellcion cant get even close to this effectiveness in killing bombers and when it will die, u have no replacement. Also bombers will be pushed back and before they will return, they will regenerate. kol dont push, shoot at every bombers volley , deadly and very hard to kill with hoshi on the field.

But what is tec biggest strenght ? they have no flaw. Tec has cheap and handy answer for evey treat in sins. And their fleet combo of best units if faar superior

All what i wrote about is crucial in MP and  is meaningless in sp.

Again stop talking about things u dont understand as an expert.

When people act like you bad things happening. Look at  present crisis. Its caused because politician started to listen to guys who have no idea about economy , read Keyns and even have a nobel price given from  sweedish commie commity to people who  belive in keyns rules .

What im trying to say is ignorant,  nobilityed by other ignorants with gift of speach can do a lot of harm (in your case, total unbalance of the game)

If you dont belive me, talk to other skilled playes, DT , or BIA, or Auqia.

You have yet to tell me anything I don't already know...very few battles are just kanraks vs. LRMs...when you are talking about taking out a high priority target (like a capital ship or SB), damage is more important than survivability...with equal fleet supply, LRMs will beat kanraks if you only look at frigates vs. frigates...but against high priority targets like capital ships the kanraks are definitely favored...furthermore, if you compare LRMs vs Advent and kanraks vs Advent, LRMs really do not outperform kanraks whent the Advent ships have lots of shield mitigation bonus (+10% from culture and technology, though the culture isn't always relevant)...

I didn't say kanraks are better...I just said LRMs are not better in every aspect...both ships have their merits and the better sniping ability of kanraks should not be underestimated...

None of its non-ultimate abilities scale at all...late game, embargoing one planet just isn't nearly as effective as it would be early mid or late game...furthermore, missile platforms only contribute raw damage (and for late game, not very much)...both the halcyon and the skirantra have fantastic late game abilities that scale, have high utility, and shine even at lvl 1...

The only real nice thing late game about the Sova is its ultimate ability...the other three abilities, while fantastic early game, pale in comparison to energy aura, TK push, or repair aura...this just reiterates my point that TEC strengths are most early game, and wane in the late game...again, never said the Sova was bad, but it only is the best carrier cap in the early game...after that, the Halycon and skirantra are going to do more for your fleet...

Again, you aren't telling us anything beyond the obvious...it's no secret that the akkan is good, or what you can do with its abilities...the question is whether those abilities are better than the prog's or the jarrasul's, and I don't think you can clearly say yes to that...malice and shield regeneration are very powerful in all situations while ion bolt and targetting uplink only shine in specific situations...nano-disassemblers also is fantastic throughout all stages of the game for taking out high priority targets (and it makes for the best early game combat colony cap)...

You also are again banking your argument on an ultimate ability...sure, TEC caps have the best ultimate abilities, but can you keep those ships alive?  Repulsion+TK push or reactive nanites+Jam weapons are a lot more effective at keeping caps alive than a meager 20 hull/s from a hoshiko...TEC can only adequately protect caps under very special circumstances, either with a lvl 6 akkan or when on home turf (with repair bays and Argonev with supply)...

Good players will avoid all SBs, not just TEC...and if they do attack one, they will rely heavily on bombers...you make it out like TEC is the only faction that can handle bombers which is just not the case...TK push or JW with phasic trap are pretty good at that...the advantage that the Transcencia has is that it can wipe out whole fleets without having to blow itself up...if people avoid your SB, then red button didn't do you any good...and if they don't avoid your SB, the transcencia can deal with large fleets too without blowing itself up...

You are aware that TK push stacks as well???  And really?  2-3 Kols?  TK push can do 40 damage...flak burst can do 60...TK push costs less AM, actually is useful if you only have one instance of it, and is put on a ship with other good abilities...the Kol only has flak burst, and unless you have 2 of them it provides no true SC "cover"...I don't think an ability that depends on you having it twice should be rated as "best"....especially when having it twice comes at a huge opportunity cost...