Heh, the Iconians LOVE the government techs - they raced toward the Federation (or Interstellar Commonwealth, as I renamed it for them) and built the Galactic Monument before I even realised they were going for it. In fact, generally they're starting to perform really well, which is heartening. The Iconians and the Yor also both love their respective ethics techs too, far more than their rivals the Drath and Drengin.

The Korx, on the other hand, have shown no enthusiasm for their newly-gained entertainment techs - they researched xeno entertainment but haven't been building any morale structures, including the FoC.

Common problem, because the AI value for all improvements hasn't been adjusted yet. Finding the right value, however, needs a lot of trial and error.

I currently use a base value of 10 and adjust it accordingly for all improvements, if needed. Econ buildings are given a value of 14, morale improvements 12 and farms 8. Production and Food enhancing buildings, like Power Plants and Food Distribution Center, are given a value of 5, while most other 1PP buildings, like the FoC, have a value of 20 or more.

Those values still need some work. I'm especially not happy with the morale improvements and farms. Morale improvements are quite problematic, because AIP 7 just loves to build them (one to four per planet), while the other AIPs are not so keen on them. Farms range currently from none to lots per planet, irrespective of AIP. This should be solved as soon as I make them 1PP, but I still need to figure out a way to solve the problems of Homeworld-overcrowding and bonus tiles.

OK, that makes sense. The Korx did get better eventually, and were building in a more balanced way, but I think I'll try out the values you suggest above for the next game. In other areas they were pretty strong, although they fell behind the Yor and Iconians eventually.

The biggest criminals ended up being the Drengin (on AI8), who had an allergy to building research structures and would leave 300% research tiles empty for years on end before building something irrelevant on them. They didn't stand a chance against the Iconians and Yor (both AI11), who completely out-teched them. Otherwise they were being quite sensible, just with this one glaring flaw.

The only problem I encountered with the Yor was that they were very slow to research Interstellar Construction - in fact I had to trade it to them. Otherwise, they seemed to be focusing on economics (and later government), ethics and invasions, but they wasted a lot of money building transports that the Drengin or Iconians would blow up, and were putting defences on starbases without any weapons (which was what finally made be break and help them out).

The last race I was testing were the Drath, who were pretty much mediocre throughout and would have been the first to be destroyed if I hadn't bought them back their planets and brokered a peace. I'm concerned that they aren't using their Super Ability properly and were getting drawn into wars rather than masterminding them and will have to watch what they do in the next few games to see if it was just a one-off.

Oops, I meant to elaborate on this a bit more. They particularly loved production and were charging through through to The Death Furnace, they also didn't seem to have any problem with their economic buildings or building decent ships. It also wasn't the case that they weren't researching their more advanced research buildings, just that they only built four in their entire empire, and failed to use 300% bonus tiles, althiugh they did use a 100% tile.

That is weird. They usually don't have any trouble manipulating the other races in my games. It might be a one-off, like you suspect. You could also change them back from AIP 11 to their original one (AIP 8) and see if that helps.


I have seen this behavior many times before and it is driving me nuts. All AIs have trouble using improvements and bonus tiles properly. Labs on a Precursor Mine, Markets on a Precursor Library and many more nonsensical stuff happens all the time. Worst thing is, that there is nothing we can do about it. We can attempt to guide it by changing the values, but the ultimate decision regarding "what and where to build" lies by the AI. 

I, too, have liked the results of adding the changes we're talking about - governments, planetary defense, morale techs.  There have been a few issues to work out, but it's coming along.

1- Failure to militarize.  Since I finally rounded out the AIValues and the AIs are pursuing more balanced and complete research plans, it seems that the weapons techs have been left behind.  That's right.  Believe it or not, with all the other techs finally on the table the weapons techs actually need a little help.  On a related note, I had to bump the invasion techs, but went a tad too high.  That's why you have tons of transports and no warships.  I'm fixing that now.

2 - The techs that I'm calling Traditional Entertainment need AIValue optimization. Even now, the AI doesn't research past Extreme Entertainment.  I haven't really hit the morale improvements yet, but they build some.

3 - AIP 8 has its own idea of how to run a research program.  It has such distinct preferences that you end up having to trick it into a balanced research strategy.  Surprisingly, it competes pretty well given its deficiencies.  At least, in early v3.0.  I went back to strictly AIP 11 to finish v3.0, so I can't say much about how AIP 8 behaves in the current version.

4 - On AIP 8, I wouldn't be surprised at all if only the specific Drath AIPersonality is set up to make use of Super Manipulator.  Just like Korath is the only one that uses Super Annihilator.  In fact, I've noticed a distinct lack of " . . . or at least that's what I've been paid to think." since I've been using AIP 11.  I'm even trying the Korx as Manipulators on an earlier suggestion, but haven't seen much evidence that they're using it.

5 - The Korx still seem to struggle in my games, even with a 25 morale/20 econ FoC and Traditional Entertainment.  It could be starting location, but they always seem to lag the colony rush.  They do quite well later on given their small piece of the pie, but don't become one of the dominant powers.

6 - Research preferences seem to change from game to game.  I know I've said it many times, but it's very important.  Even when using the same races with the same TechTrees, the favorite techs always seem to change.  Sometimes one or all the AIs will decide to ignore research, for example, and hammer out something else.  Sometimes a single AI decides to completely ignore logistics for whatever reason, even though they are well advanced in other areas.  Or maybe one AI rushes miniaturization to the detriment of basic techs.  In any given game you're almost guaranteed to have a couple stinkers that pursue rather flawed research, but most will perform very well.

7 - The AI has done a very good job of using bonus tiles in my experience.  Except in one of my last playtests where one of them stuck a farm or planetary defense or something else stupid on the 700% research tile.  Really?

8 - Going back to unique AIPs, the Arcean AIP seems to be quite good at warfighting. It may be a one off thing, but they did an awesome job of getting their transports moving and actually conquering planets while the other AIs were just picking off defenders with scarcely a transport in sight.  Is it an actual programming difference?  Well, probably not.  It was nice to see some actual conquest going on, though.

Overall, it's coming along quite nicely.  I'm doing 2-3 playtests before making any changes rather than finding so many issues in one run that I need to fix them right away.  I'm not in a super rush to release v3.1, so I'm taking my time.

Hmm, well I might let them go back to AI8 and take the risk on their research - they're still kind of underperforming in my games anyway so it might be worth a try. Conversely I might put the Drengin & Korath back onto 11 - I've tried them out on AI8 for a few games now and they always end up falling behind after a promising start, so back they go.

Yes, I'm blaming this for the Yor's refusal to research Interstellar Construction as it's not a problem I have noticed in the past. They're doing remarkably well now and have taken a balanced approach, with a strong military and amazing economy (partly because they captured the market techs from somebody).

Yeah, I've seen this before and don't think it's a fluke. When they're not hamstrung by a poor colonization phase and get a decent empire up and running, they become quite formidable.

Oddly, the Yor on AI11 are also better than average at getting their conquest on, attacking relentlessly and protecting their transports. On AI7 they were always a bit hopeless so that has been a nice surprise.

That seems wise, v3.0 is very robust, which is not to say that I don't enjoy tinkering with it!

 

I've mentioned this in the past, and it's definitely an actual programming difference. The AIs fight wars differently, and AI 11 in general, and the Arceans in particular, seem to be the best at it.

Ah, I remember your commentary on the various AIPs.  I forget the mention of the Arceans, though.  I'm glad to hear that it's not a fluke.  I was actually shocked at how effective my Bulrathi were are taking other civs apart.  Even toward the end, with everyone piling on the Meklar - on the other side of the galaxy from the Bulrathi - it is the Bulrathi who are sending in robust fleets and escorted transports to claim the lion's share of worlds.

There is so much gold in this and other topics regarding the behavior of the various AIPs.  I'm starting to think that we should have a separate topic dedicated to it.  I was skeptical about there being a big difference between the unique AIPs, but I've seen the light.

Here's tidbit I've mentioned before but it seems to bear repeating: The Torians are scary with Thalan AIP.  They usually do quite well in the colony rush, but in my latest playtest they're going to end up with 35 to 40 colonies where the other 6 civs each have 10 to 20.  Yuck.

I've got a huge complaint about this mod; it's just too damn good! I set up an immense galaxy, abundant everything (I like my games long and epic...) with difficulty set to Painful, and it produced the best balanced game I've ever had BUT, as we got into a very intriguing mid-game, with all races (9) plus 4 minors still active, the length of time between each push of the turn button grew and grew until my pretty new and nicely spec'd PC just couldn't take it no more and froze! Dialling down all the graphics settings helped a little, but in the end it just couldn't cope with everything that was going on (which was a LOT!)

Up to then, I was (and still am) hugely impressed - the AI's did some excellent planetary developments, even using bonus tiles well, and every planet I spied on was built up. Loved the new research trees, and the AI made good choices on what it went for - the swine beat me to most of the Trade Goods and GA's, and their military was far and away the best I'd seen: everyone had a functional military, and when they were attacking they were sending waves of escorted transports and taking out starbases as well. I was really having to scramble diplomatically to minimise the number of wars I was fighting, and was constantly having to make tough choices on research and ship design.

So, I now have another complaint...I can see I'm gonna be short of sleep and time for the foreseeable future. You'll be hearing from my solicitors in due course.

 

I've been trying to figure out a way to nerf the Torians without crippling them for a while now. They're just too consistently strong on any setting.

In other news, a bit from my own modding efforts that I had to post somewhere. In a recent test game (though one I'm actually playing out) with a custom race using the Arcean tech tree, I found their homeworld to look like this:

All of the Arcean unique structures on one planet. In 2230. And the rest of their decent-to-high PQ planets look like this too. I think I may cry.

The way to nerf the Torians is to cut back on their early production capability, which helps them to spam out more colony ships and establish more colonies that spam out even more colony ships.  The Deep Core Mine, though only 1PP, is horribly overpowered.  You scale that back or eliminate it altogether and they will have to research a new factory before they can boost their production capability.  Which is as it should be, they don't have an engineering tradition like the other races.

The Korath are irritating me in my most recent game. They have a massive 500+ ship military, are at war with 5 civilizations (and have been for most of the game), but they've decided that planetary invasion is unnecessary. Seriously guys? Use your super soldiers!

My best guess is that this is an artifact of 1st place laziness, where the AI figures it's got enough of an advantage to just durdle around researching non-combat techs to improve its empire, but I'm not sure. As further evidence towards this theory (or more stupidity), they have not researched past stinger II or small hulls.

What they ARE researching is advanced life support. When conquerable enemy worlds are well within their range already. Sigh.

 

I noticed this earlier, but it is REALLY apparent in this game that all of the + xx% production/research improvements don't work well in the hands of the AI. They tend to be expensive to build and maintain, and only provide a benefit on large, specialized worlds. Not only does the AI like to build these before the corresponding production structures, but once built it does not always specialize the world to take advantage of the improvement. The Korath and Drengin especially get it in the teeth with these structures, as they have something like seven total.

In my game, the Korath are pretty sketchy with these. They have one research world that actually uses the pain amplifier to decent effect (though it could probably be another advanced slave lab and be almost as good), but two or three worlds with the amplifier and 0-1 research structures. Nearly every one of their planets has all three of their available production improvement structures built. On all but their largest (12+ PQ) worlds, these would be much better as more slave canyons. On the <10 PQ worlds, if the AI didn't spec manufacturing it gets 3 percentage improvements, MAYBE one factory, and a scattering of labs/econ/farm/morale. Arg.

I like the suggestion from earlier of adding some production/research points to these structures so that they are not useless alone, and I'd also strongly suggest reducing the maintenance and build time. I suspect if the build priority is lowered below that of the matching factory or lab that the AI simply would not ever build these.

The Drengin/Korath improvements I think could do with some streamlining, perhaps upgrade paths so the structures improve rather than just getting more of them.

 

On to things I am happy with: the Torians. Seriously, these guys are awesome.

1) Nearly all their worlds are sensibly built and make good use of bonus tiles. There are no less than three examples of the AI saving a bonus tile for an improvement type it has not yet queued. The only minor weakness it has is a fondness for morale structures where it doesn't strictly need them, and this only really affects two of its planets.

2) Responsive to specific problems. They have realized I am murderizing their soldiers with robots, and have begun building planetary defense everywhere. They have also realized that even +50% defense doesn't do enough when you only have 15 soldiering and are researching deeper into the planetary defense tree. They stopped researching armor after killing all the Korath super dominator corvettes, and are now going for missile defense (the main Korath weapon tech).

3) Good warfighting. They no longer send out unescorted transports after I blew up 10 or so early game - they now roll with large fleets of escorts. They also have remarkably good target priority for invasions, and have taken 3 or 4 Korath worlds in or bordering their territory. They don't send large fleets after constructors or scouts, only smaller 2-3 ship fleets (they still do chase them like crazy though). They seem to be aware that their warships are individually inferior, and are able to use concentration of force and attrition to handle the masses of incoming Korath.

Very impressed - they've really taken off now that I've stopped blowing up everything they build in order to kill the Jagged Knife.

 

Speaking of whom: either they're not always idiotic, or my quicksave/reload actually did something. They are building ships and transports and starting to come after me. Their choice of improvements to build is sometimes...odd, but I'm guessing that is due to their jumble of everyone's tech tree. They did build a stellar forge on one of my former planets that already had a starship bonus though, so their priorities aren't all b0rked (I made sure to thank them after I took it back).

Anyways, thanks for slogging through another one of my long, vaguely connected rambles

Thanks for that. 

I tackled the problem of +% structures for v3.1.  Each now has a base production proportional to its +%, and costs/mainenance have been brought down so the AI doesn't get stuck spending a year to put up a power plant or research coordination center.  I also reduced the AI value to prevent spamming.  It's more in line with the AI for factories and labs, but with the base production and lower maintenance there is no downside to building them.  For the Drengin and Korath, I have Artificial Slavelings upgrading Slaveling Training and the Wretched Harverster upgrading the Devil's Forge.  This reduces the number of +% structures that can pile up while still allowing them to take advantage of multiple such improvement. It keeps with the idea that their production structures produce less than others, but they have ways to compensate.

Actually, with all the work I've done making the Drengin and Korath similar, I need to go back and see what makes them distinct.  The Korath have a number of powerful techs that the Drengin lack, so what do the Drengin get that makes it worth using their TechTree instead?  Things like fleet modules and planetary defense were Drengin-only, but now I've made them universal.

It's too bad about capital placement, though.  The AI actually does a halfway decent job making manufacturing planets and research planets, but only rarely plunks the appropriate capital down on one of them.  Maybe, just maybe, the production value will help the AI to group them up.  It seems to me that Pain Amps and Research Coord. Centers have been getting grouped with larger numbers of labs during my latest playtests, but I haven't really measured anything.

For morale structures, I've been considering making them one-per-planet, but more powerful.  As it is, I've been fixing the cost, maintenance, and AI to see if I can get decent usage.  In fact, I'm in the middle of fixing the cost, maintenance, AI, and effectiveness of all improvements so that they are more uniform and reasonable. I'm not really changing the effects much, if at all, but more making the cost/maintenance to effect ration more similar.  I also used Gaunathor's idea of taking the cost of the basic improvement and incrementing it by +50% for each level of improvement.  No more 450mp Virtual Reality Centers or Quantum Power Plants.  Well, QPPs are an exception to that rule, but cost is still significantly reduced.

For the Jagged Knife, I've been suspecting that pop-up minors may use one of the other minor races as a template, so maybe the mod actually does make them smarter.  Having said that, I vaguely recall disproving that suspicion by introduction pop-ups at the beginning of the game to see if the quicksave fix would get them colonizing.  To my recollection, it didn't work.  There might be something there, though.

I've been experimenting with techs and improvements that skew the Drengin towards military production and logistics, and the Korath towards extreme weapons, soldiering and hit points bonuses. The big change, one the Drengin AI likes, is an early improvement that gives them a bonus to logistics and planetary production, defense and resistance (so that the player and AIs can't steal it from them too easily). This lets them build bigger fleets than any other faction so that they can be a real evil empire. I also toyed with making a bigger deal about their role in the galactic slave trade but never found a way to implement it that I liked - and while logistics and production bonuses work well with their playstyle, high aggression and Dominator super ability, trade doesn't fit quite so well and is meant to be a Drengin weakness (though it would help cover poor Drengin diplomacy a little in the having-friends stakes, and in my games they are quite enthusiastic about opening up trade with anyone they're not currently killing).

I experimented with giving the Korath a structure that sent their soldiering through the roof, but they were reluctant to build it or even research the required tech (I never did work out why) and a spore-based invasion tech (which was was too powerful, and they were happy to research). Currently they just have a changed set of racial bonuses, and the Super Warrior ability.

Does this mean that the Wretched Harvester is no longer Korath-only, or just that only Korath get the upgrade and this remains one of their unique, powerful techs? I always thought it was one of their most characteristic improvements, which instantly said a lot about how the Korath work.

I have set the value for factories to 10 and the value for the production enhancers on 5, and the AI keeps building the enhancers. Sometimes, it will build them even without any factories, though, as far as I can tell, it does that mostly on planets it conquered or flipped.


I changed them this way: Devil's Forge (+20% manu bonus, 125 cost) gets upgraded to Slaveling Training Center (+30%, 185), which gets upgraded to Artificial Slaveling Pods (+40%, 245). The Korath can upgrade the Death Furnace (+30%, 150) to Wretched Harvester (+40%, 225), while the Aul Incinerator (+30%, 300) stays independent. The maintenance for all is 5bc, except for the Aul Incinerator. PQ -1 is maintenance enough for it.

I changed the tech requirement for Wretched Cloning to Death Furnace to keep the industrial techs all in one spot. While Xeno Medicine makes sense as tech requirement, I really think that this change is for the better. I could change the requirement to both techs, but that would look horrible and I'm not sure how the AI would handle this.

Additionally, I added the Agony Coordination Grid (+40% research bonus, 150 cost) improvement, because the tech makes mention of it. It is an upgrade for the Pain Amplifiers (+20%, 100). The maintenance stays at 4bc.


While I understand the reason behind this, I'm a bit worried about how the AI will handle this change. A base MP/RP value will increase the chance that the AI will build the production enhancers on a bonus tile. If the value is too low compared to a regular factory/lab, could this greatly hamper the production output for the AI compared to the player. On the other hand, if the value is the same as a comparative factory/lab, would this make the production enhancers overpowered compared to SPs. Do you have tested those changes yet? I really hope, that my worries are unnecessary.


Thanks for reminding me. The same is true in my mod. The Korath are better than the Drengin in every way. Gotta find something, that makes the Drengin worth choosing over their cousins.


I mentioned earlier, that I considered doing this, too. I have seen plenty of cases were the AI has a decent approval overall, that is made up of a few planets with very good approval, and several more planets with approval in the reds and a constant loss of population. To decide how big the morale bonus should be, I therefore needed to know how big the max population will be. In other words, I had to finally find a solution of how to make farms balanced 1pp-improvements.

The biggest problems in doing that was the difference in population limit of the homeworld (16b) and colonies (8b), and the bonus tiles. Farm sizes, that would work good on a colony, don't work on the homeworld. And the bonus tiles would throw any balancing out of the window. In the end, I decided to make the pop limit for both homeworld and colonies the same (12b) and lowered the max bonus from farms to 3mt. I also changed the Yor Charging Stalk to give a +%-bonus instead of a fixed value, because they needed the biggest population, but bonus tiles (again) would make any balancing impossible. It also doesn't make sense, that fertile soil increases the energy output of the Stalks.

Testing this change was difficult, due to my ongoing hardware problems, and disappointing, because the AI refused to build any farms on their planets, despite a very high AI value. Only the Yor built their Charging Stalks, but I believe, that this had more to do with the morale bonus. My guess is, that the AI thought that a population of 12b is enough. I also noticed something interesting: food fractions get rounded down (e.g. a food bonus of 0.8mt gets rounded down to 0mt).

For my next test, I reduced the base pop limit to 8b. The result was, that those races, that didn't start out with a farming improvement, had later only rarely enough space to build a farm. So, I decided to add a basic farm improvement. Balancing was again quite difficult, due to the bonus tiles, so I changed all farms to provide a +%-bonus instead of a fixed value. This makes the bonus tiles worthless, but, I think, it is for the best. The current values are:

Homeworld/Colony 8mt
Basic Farm (+15% food bonus, 20 cost)
Xeno Farm (+25%, 30)
Enhanced Xeno Farm (+50%, 40)
Advanced Xeno Farm (+75%, 50)
Robotic Farm (+75%, 50)
Harvester (+25%, +5% pop-growth, 20, no longer indestructible)
Basic Stalks (+25%, +25% morale, 25)
Charging Stalks (+50%, +50%, 35)
Advanced Charging Stalks (+150%, +150%, 45)

All farms have a maintenance of 1bc, except Harvester, which has none. Food Distribution Center and Fertility Clinic got sacked. As you can see, the max pop limit will be 20b for the Yor, 16b for the Torians, 15b for the Arceans (see later) and 14b for the rest. The Thalans can have a bigger pop limit on up to two of their planets, due to the Hyperion Matrix (+75% food bonus) and the Gaia Vortex (+15%), but don't have access to the Basic Farm at the start. Neither do the Drengin, Korath and Torians. The Torians start with the more powerful Harvester, so they won't need it. The Drengin and Korath, on the other hand, sure do. Basic Farm currently has Industrial Revolution as tech requirement. I'm a bit weary of adding yet another starting tech to the game (already did Capitalism, Traditional Entertainment and Traditional Temples). Giving the Drengin/Korath unique farming improvements (with the same or similar values) and techs, will probably be the best solution.

I still need to go after the morale improvements, but that is out of the question for now. My latest test lead to a freeze-up of the system. A stability test later crashed it (the PC shutdown completely). So much for my hope, that the RAM would be the culprit.

In any case, two more changes I made:

The Krynn have now access to Traditional Temples (but not the upgrade to Drathian Temples), because Entertainment Networks make absolutely no sense for them.

I also had another look at the Biosphere Modulator and Weather Control Zenith, and finally discovered what always bothered me about them. Why has the Modulator a manufacturing bonus? It doesn't really makes sense. The Modulator makes "the planet adapt to us", as the description says. So, why not a bonus to pop-growth? And why has the Weather Control Zenith no additional bonus? If there is one area, that should see a boost due to weather control, it is farming. So, the values are now:

Biosphere Modulator (+3PQ, +10% pop-growth, 60 cost)
Weather Control Zenith (+3PQ, +15% food bonus, 60)
The maintenance for each is 2bc.

Enough for now. I have to find out what I need to replace as soon as I have enough money.

I like the sound of this, makes a lot of sense - and the Drath will appreciate the pop growth bonus for sure...

Ok.  I'll answer my own question.  The Agony Coordination Grid requires . . . Agony Coordination Grid.  Yeah.

And I checked the difference between my Drengin and Korath TechTrees.  The Drengin get Hull Strengthening, while the Korath get Dark Influence, Corrupted Genetics, Wretched Harvester, and Aul Incineration.  Doesn't sound like much of a fair trade to me.  The question is, how to rectify the imbalance . . .

I do like the logistics building idea for a start.

It is just me or does this question get asked a lot lately? No, the Wretched Harvester is still Korath-only. The Drengin may be into gene-therapy/modification, but not into clone-research. The tech-requirements are looking like this now:

Devil's Forge
   Death Furnaces
      Wretched Cloning
         Aul Incineration
   Enhanced Slavelings
      Artificial Slavelings


Sounds good. It seems, my worries were unfounded. I may try those changes myself, but my PC has to be in proper working condition, first.


Neither did I, until it hit me. I was always thinking, that the capital should be more powerful than the colony. It still is, but the pop limit is now at a more manageable level.


Every approach is fine, as long as it's working. 


I wouldn't call it a problem, but I just couldn't picture the Krynn spending their day watching soap operas and talk shows. The Drathian Temple is the only upgrade for the basic Temple in my mod, but it remains firmly in the hands of the Altarians and Drath. I used the unused temple improvement in the xml as the base for the basic Temple. My original intention for it was, to be an Altarian/Drath-only improvement. I used the same values as the Thalan morale improvements:

Temple (+15% morale, 25 cost)
Drathian Temple (+25%, 35)
Maintenance is 1bc.

I'm thinking of increasing the bonus of morale improvements by 50% (rounded up to the next interval of 5, e.g. +37,5% will be +40%) for their change to 1pp improvements, but testing will still have to wait.

 

Edit:

First, something important I forgot to mention (or I did mention it, but forgot that I did): the Torians have the same problem as the Iconians. They are missing Xeno Business in their Tech Tree.

Second, I had a look at making the Drengin and Korath more distinct. For starters, I removed Hull Strengthening and the Planetary Defense techs I, unwisely, gave the Korath access to. I may give them a Spore-based Planetary Defense tech as a replacement (Defense at the cost of pop-growth), but am not yet sure about it. After this, I hit a little snag, because I had no idea what I could give the Drengin. Then I remembered this post:

Mister, I really like your idea.

The main reason I had for starting to tinker with the starbase modules was, to make the mining and production assist modules more fitting for all the races, especially the Drengin and Korath. Using and/or developing machines to do a slaves work is dishonorable for a Drengin (or Korath). No Drengin in his right mind would ever do that. So I scrubbed the Industrial Starbase Construction techs and added better fitting modules with the regular industrial techs as requirements. This had the additional benefit of giving the Drengin (and Korath) immediate access to the modules simply by researching their slave-related industrial techs. Just like all the other races (for the most part) get access to their own industrial modules.

Now, I added the Industrial Starbase Construction techs back in, but made them Drengin-only. I gave each tech a Logistics bonus and a mining and production assist module. This had the nice effect of solving the balancing issue I had between the Drengin and Korath. Production Assistance is now at +35% for the Drengin and +40% for the Korath, where it was at +25% vs. +40% before (my current value is +27% for factory-users and Iconians, for +30% Thalans and +40% for the Yor). Mining is now at +35% each, where before it was only +30% for the Drengin (my current value is +35% for factory-users, +45% for the Korx and +36% for the Iconians, Thalans and Yor).

The four new modules pushed my module count to 101, so I am still in the green (the last nine are the Terror Star and Sensor modules). The description of the ISC techs specifically mention building up an economic base. So, I decided to add two more trade modules, based on slave trading, with a value of +25% each. My standard value for trade modules is +50% (+100% for the Korx Super Trade Base), which makes the Slave Trading modules about equal to the trade module provided by Master Trade. The Drengin are still missing out on the trade bonus provided by Master Trade itself, so their potential trade income remains lower than those of the other races, but definitely higher than that of the Korath.

As a last step, I changed the tech requirement for ISC from Advanced Starbase Construction to Interstellar Construction. That way will it be more accessible for the Drengin.

I'm not totally satisfied yet, but it is definitely a start in the right direction. Thanks again for the idea, MisterAedan!

 

Glad it was of use! Actually, yours is the much better implementation of the idea and I might have a go at this myself - have never really looked at starbase modules properly.

Also, I didn't realise that there was such a mining & production assist disparity between the Drengin and Korath, I'll definitely have to look at that.

Shouldn't the Drengin have a higher production assist and/or mining value than the Korath, since they don't kill their slaves?  In fact, arguably, the Korath should be weaker than the other races in these regards, as they come from a culture designed around slaves for these purposes, and they've removed that part from the equation.

I also like the idea of the Korath having a weaker economy than the Drengin - as the former elite warrior clan of the empire, economics aren't their specialty, and they hold the whole process in contempt anyway. The old Korath unique economy techs seemed to be flavored along these lines, and while you might not want to bring those back specifically, it makes sense that this is another area where the Drengin tech tree would have the edge.

It seems I wasn't clear enough, after all. The disparity was of my own making, it doesn't exist in the standard game. In the un-modded game, both Drengin and Korath have a value of +27% for mining and +23% for production assist. 
During my changes of the starbase modules, I began adding mining modules to the techs Slave Pits, Slave Canyons, Enhanced Slavelings and Artificial Slavelings, and production assist modules to Devil's Forge and Death Furnaces. Balancing those with the Korath-only mining (Wretched Cloning) and production assist modules (Aul Incineration) was impossible. No matter what, the Korath would always be better. I needed new modules for the Drengin, but had no idea where I could add them.

The Industrial Starbase Construction techs really helped in that regard. The stupid thing about it is, however, that they were already Drengin-only in the standard game. They were the equalizer between Drengin and Korath, and I messed it up.


The main goal of the Korath is to use clones for industrial purposes. Until they perfected cloning, however, they keep using slaves. Therefore, they should still be at least equal to the other races in that regard.

Still, I'm not really happy about my current values for production assist modules for the Drengin, Korath and Yor. They are way too high, compared to the other races. While it seems fitting for the Yor, because they are supposed to be a manufacturing powerhouse, it absolutely isn't for the Drengin and Korath.

Well, I think I'm reaching the end of what I can do with this.  Or, at least the limits of the scope of my work.  I think I've hit just about every tech, improvement, and module in the game.  The major question is what to do with colony population, farms, and morale structures.  Is it perfect?  Hardly.  I think I'm hitting the point of diminishing returns, though.  Either that or I'm suffering modder fatigue and it's time to hang it up for a while.  That's what I intended to do after 3.0, but things just weren't done.  At this point I'm ready to release 3.1 and call it good enough.

Well, the Thalans and Torians are pretty crazy and the Drengin and Korath perpetually lag economically, but the grand scheme is pretty well set.

My biggest concern is rapid militarization and the descent into all-out-war.  No matter what I do, someone is building fleets during the third year and the wars start shortly thereafter.  The only way I can see to address that is what Marvin Kosh did, with his tiered TechTrees.