It's amazing how I work through round after round of fixes, think I'm pretty well satisfied, then come here and end up with another round of fixes.  Does it never end?  Well, I know it does; I can actually see the light at the end of the tunnel, but it's like that dream where you keep running and running and don't seem to be getting any closer.

Funny how we hit so many of the same ideas here.  Just last night I hit the maintenance for the Krynn structures. 5bc went to 2bc and 10bc went to 3 bc.  Uncanny.  I also noticed that I left maintenance costs on most of the racial GAs and SPs. Problem solved.  I really am considering your suggestion, Gaunathor, to nix maintenance on most structures.  Economic structures, in particular, shouldn't have maintenance costs.  Morale structures, if they have a cost, should all have the same low cost - maybe 1 or 2bc.  You should never have to do cost-benefit analysis of whether to upgrade your structures.  That is, there should never be a possibility that upgrading causes you to lose out because maintenance costs eat up your benefit or overburden your economy.  It's just too much hassle to worry about. Having a uniform, low cost would ensure that it is always beneficial to research the next technology and you never need to worry about auto-upgrade screwing up your planets.

I have thought about all the morale bonuses that you can pile up and how it can get out of control.  So what we're talking about here is making pretty much every morale tech no-trade/no-steal?  That's a lot of techs, but it would solve the problem.  My understanding is that the player will hoard these techs anyway, buying them up but rarely selling them off.  I was also looking at the +% morale trade goods.  I already knocked the Harmony Crystals from 20% to 15%, but I'm thinking +10% for every civ-wide improvement would be reasonable.  Make them all the same cost, same benefit.  My approach of lower cost, accessible GA/TGs should ensure that one civ (or the player) would have to try extremely hard to grab them all up.

Heh, guilty as charged.

That's what I have seen in the game I'm currently playing. I managed to build 4 TGs, the rest have been grabbed by various AIs (even the Drath managed to get their act together to build Xinathium Hull Plating).

Stock Market already provides a better econ bonus than Malicious Bazaar and Merchant Emporium. Removing the maintenance would make it even more powerful. You would have to either increase the bonus from MB and ME or decrease the bonus from Markets.


Exactly! Plus, it helps the AI, because it can't choose not to upgrade.


Only the racial specific ones (Altarian/Drath, Drengin/Korath, Torian). The Thalans don't really have any morale specific techs. Granted, some of them have an effect on morale (Planetary Adaptation, Expert Gravity Channeling), but that is not their main purpose. In any case, they should be un-tradeable/stealable, too.

If memory serves, you can name the government techs differently in each racial tree (particularly Thalans and Yor, perhaps even Iconians, possibly even Drengin and Korath-come on, who really thinks they use a normal government?) to have them give different bonuses per race without actually increasing the quantity of techs in the game or running into issues with trading/stealing.

Since governments themselves are hardcoded, I assume any such endeavour would either be purely descriptive for flavor, or the above mentioned unique bonuses.

But as I woke up after an hour of sleep it's entirely possible this is a brain fart.

You're right that you can give everyone unique descriptions and bonuses without any problems.  The issue with trading and stealing is that the traded tech will take the place of the one in your tech tree.  So, if I swindle the Yor out of their version of the Republic - the Distributed Decision Network, say - then the DDN, with all its bonuses and flavor text, will take the place of my Interstellar Republic.  Not a game breaker at all, but it just wouldn't make any sense to describe the Terran system of government in terms of how the Yor distribute their computational processes.  That's all.

Besides, government techs, like morale, are the kinds of techs that the player will hoard up but practically never dole out.  It also makes a bit of sense that you couldn't simply buy a system of government from a foreign power.  So, making them no trade/no steal isn't such a bad thing.

That gets into total balance of TechTrees and improvements, and is the reason this work never seems to be done.  Sure, Stock Exchanges are more powerful than the MB and ME, but it's supposed to be balanced somewhere.  In the case of the Drengin, this is "presumably" countered by their dirt cheap manufacturing maintenance.  Even after I bumped the Slave Canyon to 4bc, I think it still has the best maintenance-to-output ratio for that type of structure.  The Iconians, I think, were supposed to be compensated with their powerful research structures.  I find that their vaunted research capabilities help, but don't avail them in the long run.

Lots of variables, just like weapons.  Removing a variable, like maintenance, means reevaluating how the improvements stack against each other.   Sigh.

This too.  That very idea has me toying with what it would mean to do away with maintenance altogether, or establish a fixed cost for each line of structures.  For example, if Traditional Factory maintenance is 4bc, then all factories are 4bc.  I also like your idea of a uniform cost increase for each level of structure, whether it be 50% of the basic structure or whatever.  The idea of having a fixed cost for each line just occurred to me, too.  It's the same as the maintenance idea.  If the Trad. Factory costs 40mp, then all factories cost 40mp.  It would mean very rapid upgrading of developed planets, for sure, but would also prevent the AI from spending years trying to build a couple Industrial Sectors on newly conquered/colonized planets.

The idea has a certain appeal to me.  Who wants to spend a year or two upgrading after researching each new tech, anyway?  Imagine what kinds of battles are going to take place when all that manufacturing spending goes to military production instead of trying to get production up and running!

It seems to me that pretty much every morale tech is race specific.  We think of the Traditional Entertainment techs as being the baseline, but since they're only available to Terrans, Arceans, and minors, they're also race specific.  I'd argue that Planetary Adaptation should fall into that category, too.  It may not be a yellow morale tech, but . . . it's a morale tech nonetheless.  Expert Gravity Channeling I'm not sure about offhand.  It unlocks a morale structure, but it's really more a propulsion tech.  I'd probably leave it be.

You guys seem to be much more stingy with the tech trading than I am. The only 'do not trade ever' techs on my personal list are diplomacy, high end weapons I don't have defense against, defense against my chosen weapons, and techs that will lead the AI to building useless improvements. Also, influence techs I very rarely trade because I hate having my planets flipped.

I often will trade an AI who is in a worse position than its immediate opponents morale, economic, or research techs to get it back on its feet. Especially if I'm not actively fighting them, I want them as strong as possible to hinder the AIs I AM actually fighting. (also, trading the techs with meaty morale bonuses attached I feel lets the AI get away with not spamming morale structures)

The government line, though, seems like an easy no-trade, no-steal alteration to me - it's a diplomacy tech, so I personally never trade it, and having different bonuses for the different races seems pretty neat.

 

edit: as a side note, in my last drengin game before installing the Tolmekmod I found myself alternating the morale structure I built on a case by case basis. The drengin ones are awesome and have minimal maintenance, but they take forever to build. Sometimes I just wanted morale NOW, and figured that the increase in pop growth would mostly cancel out the 2-4bc increase in maintenance.

Edit edit: you are entirely right about the mercenary academy - I didn't take into account that the rest of the galaxy's economy was pretty anemic. I may personally add a small soldiering bonus though, something like 5%, as the mercenariness of it connotes increased fighting skill to me.

D'oh, I hadn't considered the possibility of getting a tech from the AI that one hadn't yet researched.  This is what I get for always outresearching the AI...

But that's definitely an issue with AI-to-AI relations, so I suppose that method wouldn't work, at least by itself; they'd need to be untradeable/unstealable after all.

 

Their biggest problem is the high maintenance cost for most of their improvements, combined with their relative weak economy (Merchant Trade Complex non-withstanding). The Precursor Library is also kinda weak. Increasing the output to 16 RPs, while keeping the research bonus at 10%, should make it more useful, without making it totally overpowered.


Yeah, this will never end.


I don't need to imagine it, as I have already seen it. Scary and frustrating at the same time. Frustrating mostly, because the AI can't really make good use of its advantage and crush its enemy like it should. Taking years to finally send the needed transport to invade the last enemy planet is not what I would call good resource management.


It seems we have a different understanding of what "race specific" means in this context. My take on it is, that a tech is race specific, if it 1) only works culturally and/or biologically with a certain race and/or 2) the tech is too "foreign" for other races to understand. The following is my reasoning regarding the morale techs of all the races (using the un-modded game):

- Altarians and Drath use Temples for entertainment. This tells me, that they are highly spiritual races, probably using a combination of rituals and meditation to maintain a good morale. Most races could use this without problems. Especially the Krynn (religion) and the Thalans (meditation) could easily adapt this for their own use. The Drengin/Korath and the Yor, however, neither would nor could use it. Still, I can't see the Altarians and Drath give away a part of their culture. Not with them being so rooted in their past. Tradeable? No way! Stealable? Maybe.

- Drengin and Korath use telepathy to savor the agony in others to boost morale. I can't see this working for the other races, because this is highly biological. Even without telepathic abilities, a race would still need to be into "Hostel"-like "entertainment" for the techs to be of any use. Maybe the Korx could use it, but even then rather as a means to get more money than increasing the morale. Foreign morale techs wouldn't work for the Drengin/Korath either. They are not entertained by make-believe. They do not care about religion, meditation or spirituality. The are only entertained by the pain and suffering of others. Tradeable? No. Stealable? No.

- Iconians use Dream Conclaves for entertainment. This is a highly advanced form of virtual reality. So high, actually, that nobody else can use it, because they don't understand the tech (un-tradeable/stealable). On the other hand, I can easily see the Iconians use VR Centers, because they work quite similar, if they manage to get access to them. But still, the Dream Conclaves should be more powerful. After all, we're talking Precursor technology here. Temples and Recuperation Centers could work, too, but getting them might be impossible.

- Korx use ... money to entertain themselves? They really need more than just the Festival of Capitalism and the Entertainment Network. As has been stated before, giving them access to the regular entertainment line is the best and most fitting option. Nothing fits capitalism more than the entertainment industry. So, nothing new here. 

- Krynn use their religion to boost morale. Needless to say, other races can only use it, if they join the Krynn (un-tradeable/stealable). Of all the foreign morale techs only Temples would really make sense for the Krynn. Again, getting access will be the hard part.

- Thalans have a biological need for meditation. So, most of the foreign morale techs are unusable for them. While most of the other races could make use of the Recuperation Centers, they wouldn't understand the technology behind it. The Iconians could possibly crack it, but they have no use for it. Planetary Adaptation provides both a bonus to Morale and unlocks a morale improvement. However, I don't see it as a morale tech. The way I understand it, is that Planetary Adaptation provides the necessary means to change Thalan technologies and improvements, so that they can work on the surface of planets. That it provides a boost to morale is a side effect, not the main purpose. The same goes with Expert Gravity Channeling. This one provides an improvement to Artificial Gravity, which allows ships to move faster. That this also allows an improvement on the Recuperation Center is pure happenstance. In any case, both techs (or rather all Thalan techs) use a technological understanding that is far too advanced as that other races (except the Iconians maybe) could understand it. Tradeable? No. Stealable? No.

- Torians use improvements that are based both on their culture and their biology to boost morale. Some of the other races (Terrans, Altarians, Arceans, Drath) might make use of those improvements. Question is though, if they can make use of all improvements, because some of those are more suited to Torian biology. Even if they could, I'm not so sure, if the Torians are willing to part with those techs. Healing Pools are an integral part of their culture. Tradeable? Maybe, but I'm leaning towards No. Stealable? Maybe.

- Yor don't care about entertainment, only about efficiency. All of their "morale" improvements increase efficiency by making everything run smoother. They wouldn't work for biological lifeforms.

- Terrans, Arceans and all minors use the Traditional Entertainment techs. They would be absolutely fitting for the Korx and could work to a certain degree for the Altarians, Drath, Iconians and Torians. However, they don't really fit the Arceans, in my opinion. The Arceans are a proud and honorable Warrior-race. Why would they spent their free-time watching Talk Shows and Soap Operas? I can see them making use of the Extreme Stadium and the Zero G Sports Arena. But the rest? No way!

All right, that's it for now. Sorry for the long treatise, but I wanted to be as clear as possible about it. Too bad though, that you can't make techs only tradeable to certain races. I probably end up making all morale techs un-tradeable/stealable.



If you do that, add the bonus to the tech instead of the building. A planetary improvement can provide a bonus only to one ability.

So, the Jagged Knife mega event has occurred for the first time in my TA experience during my no-communication Yor game (details in the tell us about your games thread if you're interested). I'm wondering if the quicksave trick will make them a smart minor, or if there's something I can do to make them more than a 'please conquer me' race.

I've also been giving some thought to weapons. The main variables seem to be damage, cost, size, and size scaling. I know in the base game there are differences in tech point cost/number of techs per weapon branch, but I don't know whether that could potentially mess with the AI's priorities there and end up with an all beam galaxy or something like that. (Let me know if I've missed a variable!)

If you'd be interested in a mock-up weapons table let me know - I like the idea of weapon variance without one clear best weapon.

The "quicksave trick" is required to make the game register the changes to an already-modded minor. Since the Jagged Knife - and, for that matter, all other pop-up civilizations except the Dread Lords - can't be modded, the "quicksave trick" won't actually do anything for them.

Given how many planets they tend to steal, I'm not sure why people really want to make them "smart" in the first place.

Weirdly, in my current game the Jagged Knife seem to have got smart, or at least smarter. About halfway through taking their 70+ world empire from them, they started getting competent, at least in terms of massing their fleets and hunting me rather than just sitting there and taking invasion after invasion, building ships but not launching them. They have even been building, launching and sending out troop transports (with escorts!), although I haven't witnessed them launching a successful invasion. They're actually quite formidable now, without the benefit of being modded for smartness.

There is a difference between making them "smart" and making them able to colonize. The "quicksave trick" is only needed for the colonizing part, so the change of the AIP is registered, but not for the "smart" part. The lines, that give access to the more advanced algorithms, are working right from the start of the game. But you are right, it won't have any effect on the non-moddable minors.

I might be wrong about this, but...

Did you remove "industrial revolution" form the Krynn tech tree?  Because I used that tech tree for a custom race I'm playing as, and I didn't pick that tech at the start...And then it didn't show up in my tech tree afterwards.  As a result, I had to rush to get Xeno Factories in order to have any kind of manufacturing improvement...

The Jagged Knife question has already been answered.  Unfortunately, there isn't much that we can do.  A quicksave-reload won't hurt, but I can't say that it will actually do any good.

For the weapons, I wouldn't mind seeing a table.  I make no promises with regard to what may become of it, but I'm interested and might get some inspiration from it.  I'm nearing completion on v3.1 and could spend more time thinking about things like weapons.

I don't think I removed it.  So you're saying that it was an option to select during race customization, but after you didn't select it then it wasn't available?

That's because some of those "background" techs have a requirement of ImpossibleTech.  That means that it won't be in the tech tree unless you start with it or some special event makes it available.

Short story - it won't be available unless you select it during race setup.

huh, that's interesting...

I was always able to research it before...Weird.

Well, water under the bridge at this point.  I have my factories and stuff now.  And not a moment too soon, I think half the galaxy is about to declare war on little old me... ;_;

 

Thanks for the answer!  I'm liking the mod so far.  I'm actually being pushed around a bit for once by the Korath.  That's refreshing.

I've posted a partial table here (reply 292).  Mind that that's after the changes for the mod, but it might give you some ideas.

Hi. First of all - thanks for your effort in fixing and stramlining GC2!

I have an idea here, but being new to modding, don't even know if it's possible. It resonates with your discussions about streamlining the econ/manufacturing/research/morale structures upgrades.

Let's take terran manufacturing, for example. You start with Traditional factories (which are somewhere in the mid of the construction list), then move to Xeno Factories (end of the list), then Advanced factoried (beginning of the list), then Manufacturing Centers (2nd half of the list), then Industrial Sector (1st half of the list). Every time you research a new level the darn thing jumps in the list! Same with other types of basic structures. This is especially frustrating when founding new colony!

Is it possible to rename improvements for consistency? I would suggest something like "Prd1 - Traditional Factory", "Prd2 - Xeno Factory", etc. Research structures will become Res1/ResX, Morale - MrlX, Econ - EcnX, Power Plants - PwrX., etc (same for other race-specific improvements that have multiple levels). You would ALWAYS have them in the same spot of the list (or maybe have a space/underscore/asterisk prefix so they are always at the top of the list :" Prd1 - ..." or "_Res1 - ..." or "*Mrl5 - ..."), while still keeping the 'flavour'.

What do you think?

 

I'm in progress on the weapons modifications, my base concept is a terran/protoss/zerg idea.

Beam weapons: average cost, damage, sizemod, slightly smaller than average size. The terran of weapon techs, synergizes best with miniaturization.

Mass driver weapons: average damage, sizemod, below average cost, above average size. The zerg of weapon techs, synergizes best with logistics.

Missile weapons: above average damage, size, cost, below average sizemod. The protoss of weapon techs, synergizes best with hull research.

Still banging out the numbers, I may end up dropping the missiles to average damage/size/cost to preserve early vs late game balance. I also may end up having to tweak defense numbers as well - I can see why you just standardized 'em all

I tended to find in some cases that there wasn't enough room between one weapon and the next one on, whether it be damage vs size or damage vs cost.  I made the final tier of weapons (before ultimate weapons) more costly to research, but beefed them up a bit so that they're still worth going for.

I saw you mention Marvin Kosh's space weapons fix mod, so does your excellent mod work with that one?

Thank you for your kind words.  The two mods are different attempts to both fix Twilight's problems and improve gameplay overall.  They overlap in so many places that they are completely incompatible.

The good thing though is that going in different directions means we can cover more ground and come up with different ideas.  Plus it never hurts to give the players some choice, right?

 

 

I just started a new game playing as Terrans, and qrtxian's conversation mod has really come into its own. Every race I encounter seems to come out with something I haven't heard before about their particular beef with the Terran Alliance (including the Drath introducing themselves by saying that we looked a little bit too much like Altarians for their liking, and the Yor having an even larger repertoire of clever things to say about 'talking meat'). So thanks to both of you!

I also had a go at implementing a few of the changes discussed earlier (giving the Korx the Terran/Arcean morale line, making the Altarian/Drath and Drengin/Korath morale techs untradeable, changing the Festival of Capitalism to give an economic bonus, increasing the Dream Conclave to +35 morale so that it's a little more equivalent to the Virtual Reality Center, with which it is explicitly compared, and giving the Yor and Iconians the government techs). For the most part the AI seems to be embracing the changes, although the Korx have gone off the FoC - either I need to make the AI value higher or made the bonuses too stingy (currently on +15 each morale and economy).