Now, Kharma...let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly...

Current, shield projection on the Iconus Guardian means that some of the damage suffered by nearby ships is shared by the iconus...are you saying apply this concept to the radiance so that it takes damage when nearby ships are attacked?

An interesting idea...a very interesting idea...it would have to affect hull, not just shields though in order to work...

I agree...

Very important points...the Radiance needs to be killable...if it is killable, it is less likely any ability will become overpowered...the issue with adding a secondary buff to animosity is that it makes the Radiance harder to kill...that may be reasonable to some extent, but I think we should make sure the primary affect of animosity isn't too powerful before we proceed with a secondary buff...

In order to have something to test we need specific changes...

I'm going to test with the original range/AM cost/duration/cooldown but with Zombie's fix (only change made with the most recent version of the mod) and increased max # of targets...

I'm going to start with 24/48/72 for frigates and 40/80/120 individual SC...anyone who wants to is obviously encouraged to test this with whatever numbers they choose...it would be really nice to get a fined tuned set of numbers for this ability...

You mean like, where ships outside the radius of the Radiance do less damage?  Well, considering many believe that LRFs are a serious issue that are OP against capships...  I think something along the lines of this would probably be better then the original idea of animosity in the first place  

EDIT:

I didn't say that we should make it a tank, only that it should have another role.  Sleek doesn't mean one-trick-pony.

I'm thinking that this should probably be a protective ability that can be used to either preserve the Radiance or another capital ship.  Those kinds of abilities are definitely needed in this game.

I agree...and animosity should be able to do this as it is...nevertheless we aren't really getting anywhere, we need specific values or tests with specific values...eventually I'm just going to update the mod with whatever values seem to be a good idea at the time, though I'd rather they be more...thoughtful...choices...

I'm going to test with 24/48/72 max targets and 40/80/120 SC...this should give a decent indication if the range is good and if SC should even be affected...

Im agreeing with you I wasn't suggesting anything one-trick.  What was suggested by Agent of Kharma does accomplish something -else-, it would reduce the damage done to capital ships, and in a sense preserve the Radiance.  Especially considering the threat posed by LRFs. 

And regarding the tank thing, im just saying reducing incoming damage or reducing accuracy would be more logical (imo) then regenerating hull when being hit...

I am testing animosity right now with the numbers I've posted before...

I haven't played a real game of sins in SP for a long time so I've decided to finally do that...it's on normal speed so it's taking awhile...

As usual, I built a progenitor first, and then I built a Radiance second with an animosity/energy absorption build...here are my conclusions...granted, this is the AI, but still I think some of these things are valid...

I brought my forces against an enemy planet...at first they were outnumbered but then they brought reinforcements and forced me to retreat...they seemed to really focus on my progenitor (brought it's health very low, shield regeneration was the only reason I was safe in keeping it around) but I was able to get my Radiance behind their LRMs and use Animosity...it forced all their ships to turn around and it was rather helpful in keeping my progenitor alive...the key wasn't so much that it kept my prog alive, but that it allowed me to keep it in the battle and use shield regeneration on my frigates...

Here are my feelings so far...the high max number of targets (24/48/72) are nice but not really a big deal early on (once you get above 30 it doesn't matter)...the range is actually not bad, it forces you to move your radiance into the enemy fleet but the only reason you'd use animosity anyway is if they are FFing on something else so that isn't really a big deal...even at 3000m it is usually big enough to incorporate most of the enemy LRFs if you are willing to move in range...

From my experience so far, the range is fine...max targets (for early game) aren't an issue...antimatter cost is okay so far though for a low level radiance it is somewhat limiting (maybe a little too limiting)...if there was any change I'd make so far it be changing the antimatter cost from 65 to like 55/60/65 so that it's a little easier to use this ability...if you make a detonate antimatter/animosity build, until you get to the high levels antimatter can actually be hard to come by unless you ration these abilities...not a problem for really powerful abilities like shield regen/detonate antimatter/telekinetic push but for this ability the cost might be a wee bit too steep...not convinced either way on this though so I'm going to leave it as it is...

^Wasn't the only reason animosity was scrapped was over fears of multiple Radiances?

Fits with the theme, but not the play style. If the Radiance is doomed (or even a strong chance) to die no matter what when using this ability, no one will ever build a Radiance anyways. In the fact the only reason anyone would build a capitalship with a built in extra chance of dying would be if they could blow it up Argonev style, but that really isn't an option. I think if managed properly the Radiance shouldn't die unless it was a very large late game fleet. But if you screw up (your subverters get disabled, your mothership gets targeted by a Kortul during the cooldown time and can't cast shield regeneration fast enough) its game over. Again the only real issue is multiple Radiances, which I fear can only be controlled with a target cap.

A good point....why I finally got rid of the infinite targets...

I think animosity is useful on the radiance because I think other capital ships are better choices to target first...nevertheless, the Radiance is still the least resilient battleship...

Energy absorption could be buffed (armor values of 1/3/5 or 2/4/6 or 1.5/3/4.5) and/or animosity could give a tanking secondary effect...

Hull regen, in concept, was really interesting but I think it was too hard to balance since the difference between an LRF and SC was vast in their DPS per ship...

Damage reduction I still think is our best bet...20%/40%/80% would actually reduce damage by 16.7%/28.6%/44.4% (which is close to my target values of 15%/30%/45%) for 20s...given the mechanics of this, the numbers are slightly misleading but they aren't all that much better than the values given by adaptive forcefield...animosity however can only be active 20/35 or 4/7 of the time and it costs antimatter...

So, I'm proposing animosity give 20%/40%/80% damage reduction...the max number of targets may need to be lowered and/or SC dropped from its affects...

I've been continuing my game to test animosity, and here are my thoughts so far...

Right now my fleet is using about 800 fleet supply (I have 5 upgrades which puts me at 1090 fleet supply)...Right now I have 3 caps and 10 Aerias (350 supply), 6 Iconus Guardians (42 supply), and 56 combat ships (Destras, illuminators, defense vessels)...if you count all the ships in my main fleet with weapons it comes out to 65 (56 combat + 6 guardians +3 caps)...right now I'm using over 40% of the maximum fleet supply and 1 Radiance with level 3 animosity could affect my entire fleet...if I were to extrapolate my 65 ships to 2000 fleet supply we'd be looking at about 160 ships...two Radiances could just about cover that whole fleet...

So, I don't think a max target count above 72 is ever going to be necessary, and with my experience the range (surprisingly) is working out just fine...it requires some work and micro management to use, but it's still easy enough to do that it's worth using the ability...however I am playing on normal speed so take that as you will...

I might add that in my previous analysis, when I predicted the number of frigates in use I forgot about light carriers, so my numbers were much higher than they should have been...

I am still undecided on continuing to let this ability affect SC...like magnetize it is heavily tilted against the Vasari since they have much less SC per squadron than Advent or Tec...

Next version of this mod is likely to see the following changes:

Cleansing brilliance cooldown decreased from 120s to 90s...column radius decreased from 1000 to 750...

Animosity gives damage reduction of 20%/40%/80% (actually reduces damage by approximately 15%/30%/45%)...

Max # of targets reduced from 24/48/72 to 16/32/48 (for frigates)...

Feedback appreciated...

I've decided this forum has lots of viewers but not a lot of responders. Do you have stats on the number of downloads of what you have done. I bet you would be surprised (I've been surprised with my entity validation tool compared to the forum interest). It's one reason I suggested using code.google.com to setup a community mod in another thread. Personally, I think a community mod would require 3 or 5 community members (majority rule) to vote on changes before accepting into a released mod.

I concur...the most reason version of the mod has 4 downloads...every time I've changed versions, I don't remember seeing a download count of more than 5...

I think something like this would help give any mod some...officiality...here's the problem, why hasn't it already happened?  Why is was there no community mod before?  I don't know...there obviously are a lot of ideas and some people had put a lot of thought into the matter before this thread even started...I know many people have modded the game and play their own versions anyway...

I was hoping that if I actually started something...actually had something people could download, that at the very least other threads would pop up...some people want to fix pirates, BOOM, there's a thread...some people want to rework refineries and BOOM, there's a thread...

Unfortunately that didn't happen...

I'm going to go over everything in this mod with a fine tooth comb, see if any small tweaks need to be made...

Right now, here is what I'm probably going to do with the Radiance:

Animosity...max target count will probably be set to 16/32/48...SC will probably not be affected (a tough decision but SC are only going to be weakened in the future and other FFing choices weakened, so this choice pretty much guarantees it won't become overpowered)...ability will provide a damage reduction of 20%/40%/80%...

As tempting as it is to buff energy absorption's armor, with the damage reduction to animosity I'm probably going to revert to the buff to antimatter conversion...

Cleansing brilliance is going to have a 90s cooldown and column radius of 750...

As for other potential changes.....

The Jarrasul's colonize ability may have its duration decreased slightly...720s is a long time to have a planetary bonus....

EMP, Magnetize, Vertigo, and Vengeance all may have their AM costs looked at...all of them right now have incrementing costs (ex: 50/55/60)...since they are support ships, this may be okay...or, it might be a bad idea and constant costs are the way to go...feedback appreciated....

Once this part of the mod is finalized, I'll upload it to this website (still don't know how to do that for certain or where the best place to upload this is) and start a thread in the mod section with a link to this mod...from their, I'll post links to future components of this mod....

If an organized community effort to do...well, really anything, comes about, awesome...and if not, oh well, I'm going to try and continue as long as I can...

Yes.  We had a thread several months ago, where I posited this idea.  A few others chimed in and liked it a lot.  Darvin, I believe, chimed in with a few other ideas of his own.

In fact, I suggested that it affect hull as well as shields.

Yes, that's what I was getting at.  Just another alternate idea... not sure how good it is, but at least it's thinking outside the box.

Just speaking for myself, I'm not sure that the community mod addresses my particular concerns.  I'm okay with that - it obviously can't be everything to all people, but....

I think because there is a perception, possibly correct, that the online players would not bother to download and use it.

I think you are correct...but, hopefully this will continue to get contributions and ideas...I'm thinking of releasing several mini-mods so that people can pick and choose what small tweaks they like so that they can use them in MP games with just friends or in singleplayer...

The only issue I have with your damage sharing with the Radiance is that it doesn't help the Radiance survive...now, it serves the purpose of taking some of the heat from FFing on other nearby ships, but it doesn't help the radiance survive and that was the biggest concern with this ship...

I'm accumulating a list of ideas for new abilities to maybe be used for something else, and this hull damage sharing thing is definitely going to go on that list

The most recent version of this mod (v0.40) is now being released...it is not necessarily the final version but it is very close...

Most of the changes made since v0.32 regard the Radiance and have been discussed in the above posts...the only other changes have been minimal (Jarrasul's colonize duration decreased and EMP antimatter costs decreased)...also, a new string file has been added with ability descriptions taking into account the changes implemented (Animosity, GRG, Clairvoyance, Guidance, Jarrasul's Colonize, Incendiary Shells)...

Right now we are at the point where we go over everything with a fine tooth comb...

Project Equilibrium - Change Log

v0.40 -- Released 7/23/2010

Text changes

-Ability descriptions now reflect the implemented changes

Capital Ship Changes

-Kol

--Gauss Rail Gun
---Antimatter cost decreased from 75 to 40
---Damage increased from 325/650/975 to 600/900/1200
---Now decreases target's weapon cooldown by 33%
---Duration increased from 10s to 10/15/20

--Flak Burst
---Range increased from 2400/3000/3600 to 3000/3600/4200
---Cooldown decreased from 12/10/8 to 10/9/8
---Damage increased from 30/45/60 to 40/50/60

--Adaptive Forcefield
---Changed to passive ability

--Finest Hour
---Antimatter regeneration decreased from 5 per second to 3 per second
---Hull regeneration increased from 10 per second to 15 per second

-Radiance

--Animosity
---BuffTaunt now reapplies itself 1000 times a second
---Max number of targets increased from 8/16/32 to 16/32/48
---Now gives 20%/40%/80% damage reduction

--Energy Absorption
---Percent of damage converted to antimatter increased from 5%/10%/15% to 10%/20%/30%

--Cleansing Brilliance
---Cooldown decreased from 120s to 90s
---Duration decreased from 8s to 6s
---Damage per second increased from 250 to 500
---Radius of column decreased from 1000m to 750m
---Destroying target no longer ends ability

-Sova

--Missile Batteries
---Cooldown decreased from 35s to 35/30/25

--Heavy Strikecraft
---Physical damage bonus increased from 12%/24%/36% to 15%/30%/45%
---Armor bonus increased from 2/3.5/5 to 2/4/6

-Skirantra

--Scramble Bombers
---Duration decreased from 120s to 60s
---Antimatter cost changed from 50 to 45/50/55
---Cooldown time decreased from 35s to 24s

-Jarrasul

--Colonize
---Planet now temporarily has an extra 1/2/3 constructors
---No longer provides a structure build rate bonus
---Duration changed from 240/480/720 to 600s

-Dunov

--Shield Restore
---May now cast ability on self
---Now restores 50 shields per second for 5s in addition to current buff

--EMP
---Range increased from 4500m to 4500/5000/5500
---Antimatter cost changed from 100/90/80 to 80/85/90
---Cooldown decreased from 50/45/40 to 30/25/20

--Magnetize
---Antimatter cost increased from 80 to 80/85/90
---Max number of targets increased from 8/12/16 to 1000000 (essentially infinite)
---Max number of strikecraft that can be destroyed increased from 8/12/16 to 16/24/32

-Rapture

--Vertigo
---Range of casting ability increased from 4500m to 6000m (range of buff unchanged)
---Antimatter cost decreased from 70 to 50/55/60

--Vengeance
---Antimatter cost decreased from 70 to 50/55/60
---Cooldown changed from 30/35/45 to 30/35/40
---Duration increased from 20/30/40 to 30/35/40

--Domination
---Cooldown deacreased from 60s to 45s

-Antorak

--Distort Gravity
---Antimatter cost decreased from 65 to 40
---Cooldown decreased from 45s to 30s
---Ranged increased from 5000m to 8000m

--Subversion
---Ability no longer requires user to target planet
---Ability no longer stacks
---Antimatter cost decreased from 100 to 50
---Cooldown increased from 75s to 120s
---Structure and ship build time penalty increased from 50%/100%/150% to 100%/200%/300%
---Duration increased from 300/450/600 to 360/480/600

-Marza

--Incendiary Shells
---Fixed bug where debuff was cancelled by successive shots
---Now temporarily decreases target's armor by .5/1/1.5

--Missile Barrage
---Range decreased from 10000m to 8000m

-Revelation

--Guidance
---Is now a passive ability
---Range is 8000m
---Reduces antimatter cost and ability cooldown for all friendly forces by 10%/20%/30%

--Clairvoyance
---Duration increased from 90/120/150 to 90/180/270
---Now reduces bombing cooldown by 10%/20%/30% for all friendly units at the targeted planet
---Buff will still affect ships entering gravity well after ability has been activated

--Provoke Hysteria
---Cooldown decreased from 180s to 120s
---Percent of planet population killed per second increased from .75% to 1%

-Vulkoras

--Phase Missile Swarm
---Range increased from 5000 to 6000/7000/8000
---Max number of targets increased from 3/5/7 to 24
---Antimatter cost changed from 90 to 80/90/100

--Assault Specialization
---Bonus damage against structures increased from 60/120/180 to 120/240/360

Indeed, I think it is starting to come together. I mean, I'll probably keep the hull restoring animosity for my own use, and the increasing antimatter cost still strikes me as weird on most abilities (though that is pretty trivial), but that is about it. My one serious suggestion would be if it is possible for an ability to increase planet bombing damage, to use that instead of bombing rate, just for realism (just a little strange that knowing more about the enemy planet makes your ships fire faster instead of more accurately).

As for getting the multiplayer community to actually use this patch, I always assumed it would have to be distributed by Impulse as a full fledged version of Sins to see that happen. But I think the other main Sins community, the modding community, can help give this some credibility at least. If it is alright with you Seleuceia, I would like to try to include the final version of this mod (whatever it is) into the next version of Requiem, and perhaps the Distant Stars people can do the same with their mod as well. That should more people exposed to it and serve as a decent first step.

And Kharma, what exactly was your concern? If no one else does I will start the topic over the next great balance debate, though I have not yet decided whether it will be over unit type balance or pirates.

It is in the spirit of the original ability (taunt), i.e. the radiance takes damage instead of the fleet taking damage.

As far as survivability, all capships need more survivability, not just the radiance.  I sort of consider that a separate issue.  Having said that, I guess you could also make my animosity idea buff shield mitigation or something as well.

Actually, I think the topic has already been discussed at length by whoever.  My concern is capship survivability.  Now, most think capships need more survivability, but the difference between me and most folks, I guess, is that I don't think a little tweak here or there is gonna do it.  I guess what I'm saying is, people like DesConnor might be on board for a couple hundred hit point increase or something, but not much beyond that, while I believe much more than that is needed.

This is related to what I intended to start, but I think arbitrary HP increases would be too ineffective. From a modding point of view the damagemodifiers are the only way to go for issues like this, but the thing is it is a very delicate file. A 5% change one way or the other can completely make or break an entire unit type, which is why I was hoping to at least get this worked out first before starting on it. Thus it is going to require an ridiculous amount of testing and a good chunk of math.

Pirates on the other hand, while less important to balance, would be able to be completed with far fewer testers and in much quicker time. However if interest in this is fading, in might be wiser to do the hardest things first.

Hey, by all means take what you like   If any of this will help anyone enjoy the game more than they do now, then it was well worth it...

It just so happens that there is!  I had to look it up in the mod section, but apparently Grant Amnesty on the Vasari envoy does not make a planet invincible...it reduces planet bombing damage by 100% (an important distinction for our purposes)...so, this buffType can be used to cause the planet to suffer more bombing damage...I'll get it implemented with the next update, probably use same values of 10%/20%/30%...

Yeah, probably...

I say go for it!  A lot of people have helped with this mod...as far as I'm concerned anyone can use it...

A good point...on the other hand, pirates are not real important for MP, they are more for SP...perhaps the most important and integral things to multiplayer (which is mostly military related things) should be done first...the more we get into things that don't necessarily affect MP (pirates, improving refineries, improving technologies no one ever researches, etc...), I feel the more we risk losing people ...I'm not sure which way to go yet...capital ships aren't quite done...after the abilities, we have the ships themselves (speed, DPS, HP, SC, and the like) and then the whole LRF/Bomber issue...and then there are frigate abilities (Embolden, Distortion Field, maybe repulsion) and other abilities (Phasic Trap, Colony Pods need a serious buff, maybe the Kosturan and Deliverance engine get reworked a bit)...so, there's a lot to do...

I like all of the changes.

I agree with you about Cleansing Brilliance.. I wondered if the 3,000 dmg might be too high for 90s, but it's still much lower than something like GRG (and with a higher AM cost per dmg than GRG).  And as I detailed before, it compares very well with the Disintegration ability that also has a 90s cooldown.  (Disintegration does less damage to a single target, but it strikes armor directly for half that damage and it regens a lot of hull, shields, and AM for the Vulkoras).

Animosity:

I like the changes, but I think we should still consider including SC as a separate group with its own max targets (that's a very solid approach imo).  You're right that abilities with max targets affect the Vasari more (this is true for frigates as well since Vasari ships use more supply).  Conversely, abilities balanced for infinite targets can be disproportionately powerful vs the Advent because they tend to have weaker ships in higher numbers (consider Flak Burst and Telekinetic Push).

As for the numbers: I like the sound of your previous suggestion (40/80/120) but I haven't tested that so I can't say too much about it..  If you think that's too strong, you could try lower numbers, but anything with a max # of targets will favor the Advent over the Vasari.  I'm actually thinking that an infinite cap for the Strikecraft might be ok too.. After all, SC can very easily fly away so this ability just creates a choice for the oppoent: Should they just let their SC focus on the Radiance for 20s or should they leave it as a no-fly zone.  That makes it kind of like Jam Weapons.. which might seem unfair to Jam weapons except that Jam weapons has the clear advantage of not allowing any dmg from the SC, as well as advantages in duration.

As for AM cost: I think 65/65/65 is probably good.  It may be tough to manage at lower levels, but that's the idea imo. And with the buffs you've given it, it's certainly useful enough to justify 65 AM (the damage mitigation alone makes it worthwhile if the Radiance is under fire).

As for the mitigation: This seems fair enough to me, but I haven't tested it yet. However, I still favor an armor boost for Energy Absorption over any buff to its AM regen.  The buffed AM regen on Energy Absorption just made the abilities too cheap.  The more AM is a limited resource, the easier it is for us to balance abilities by their costs.  So if the big mitigation boost to the Radiance convinces you not to buff Energy Absorption's armor, then I vote for decreasing the migitation on Animosity and moving some of that buff to the armor on EAbsorption.

I'm just not convinced by the argument that the Advent shouldn't have a high armor Bship.  The TEC get phase-missile mitigation for the Kol (the Advent could use it more), and the shield biased Advent seem to really need one (or more) armor boosted ships to make up for their lower hull hitpoints.  Seeing as how the Advent are supposed to be technologically advanced, a sleek and slender Battleship with unusually high armor (owing to either advanced materials or some sort of crazy telekinetic reinforcement) makes sense to me.

The new Clairvoyance change= Awesome.  I love that this lets them project a siege/bombing boost to other worlds.  Any chance that this would boost allied ships as well?  And should it?

Guidance seems like a nice buff. 

I like most of it.. really.

However, I do wish Flak Burst had a smaller radius than Telekinetic push.  Telekinetic push has other advantages of course, but since FB does 20 more damage per shot I liked that Telekinetic push used to have a broader radius.  It's a minor issue, but I just liked that kind of subtle factional differences between similar abilities.  I think a 3000/3400/3800 FB would still be ok.. But I'm not sure it deserves the nerf.

About increasing AM costs:

I think this is fine, and it should definitely be considered since the AM reserves and regen for a cap ship increase a lot as it levels.  It's not weird at all for the cost of an ability to increase if its strength is also increasing.  It's only a problem if the cost is increasing more (proportionally speaking) than the added value of the next ability level.

More specifically, we expect an ability to get better and better as it is levelled.  That's a good baseline standard for all abilities imo.  However, there are several ways an ability can get better.. 

Some actually don't increase much in potency, but their cooldown/AM cost go down so they can be used more often.

Some keep a constant AM cost/cooldown, but their rate of impact or total impact still increases because of increases to rates (e.g., damage, regen, etc.) or duration.

Some abilities may increase so much in potency/total impact/whatever that they deserve to have an increase in AM cost as well.

I'm not saying we have to do it this way.. If we like the power/AM ratio of a lvl 3 ability then we could always just scale the power and AM cost down so it was the same as lvl 1.  But, for me at least, I like seeing some of the cap abilities as powerful and expensive so they're used less often.  This is important because it helps ensure that we really feel it if/when we do use them.

With that in mind, an increasing AM cost makes perfect sense so long as the ability's increasing power at each level outpaces the increase in its price.

Just to clarify, I wasn't stating that HP increases are the way to go (I don't know if they are or aren't).  I was simply stating that a hit point increase of a few hundred points is something that a DesConnor might go for, but nothing beyond that, while I think more "radical" solutions than "tweaks" are in order.

There are two "camps," if you will.  The "tweak" camp, and the "more than tweak" camp.  A couple hundred hit point increase is a "tweak."

I don't think some kind of slight hull and/or shield boost for the Radiance would be out-of-line.  Or if Energy Absorption also increased shield regeneration somewhat.

Actually the whole LRF/Bomber issue will be the main thing messing with the damage modifiers will fix. Ship stats (with the possible exception of certain capitalships) should wait until we get that sorted out because these values influence on the game is second only to abilities.

I don't have a problem with this either, the thing is on many abilities it doesn't. On EMP pulse for example, the antimatter increases by 5 every time but the ability only adds 50 damage/antimatter removed every level. Granted the range increases and cooldown decreases every time as well, but I think a slight increase to the effect say 50/105/160 would be better at preventing the diminishing returns effect. Again trivial, and it does encourage the getting all of the abilities unlocked early, but I'm not sure if it is the ideal way to handle the situation.